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Fluttershy
Fleet Admiral
Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy
|  Posted: 2013-08-15 20:27
Perhaps some way of showing how much of the total damage remains by the time it reaches max range? Not a damage value, but something like (50%) (25%) and the player can work out what it would be between point blank and max range.
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_Sajuuk_
Fleet Admiral
Joined: December 08, 2010
Posts: 38
From: Washington (state) , United States of America
| Posted: 2013-08-16 13:17
actually in real space combat there would be no such thing as "max range" or "falloff" u want them to add effects as if the projectile was in air instead of the vaccum of space. actually ICC woud be only faction that had no gun "Falloff" due to the Railgun and Gauss gun shoot a projectile unlike the Kluth or UGTO Energy guns that would eventualy dissipate
[ This Message was edited by: -Orion- on 2013-08-16 13:23 ]
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
| Posted: 2013-08-16 13:48
A salvo of PSM damage a mine from 10% to 12%.
They're too weak.
Even I build supply platform and bomb without any futile NPC's resistance, I feel like bombing in PSM will cost me an hour to clear any planet although I'm using a dread.
PSM no longer has splash damage and its 5 ammunition is far from doing archievement. Double damage and double ammunition is very appreciateful.
[ This Message was edited by: DiepLuc on 2013-08-16 13:50 ]
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Fluttershy
Fleet Admiral
Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy
| Posted: 2013-08-17 07:06
Having a low damage but wide radius explosion for mines is ok, but the direct impact damage could do with an increase.
Not saying mines should be on par with missiles or anything, but unless the damage is a bit more scary, or they cause some kind of secondary effect (like status effects) there wont be much use in pulling a mine layer, nevermind a dedicated one.
Before I can really make any suggestions on mines, or know how to go about properly testing them, I need to know what the intended role even is.
So far I've used mines for:
- Cloud bombing ships.
- As a PD jammer to allow artillery to get through.
- To try and keep an enemy somewhat distracted with avoiding the mines.
- To prevent an enemy from slowing down to avoid mines, making it easier to get on their 6.
- Bombarding an installation from well outside of planetary defense range.
Overall effectiveness: meh.
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Forger of Destiny
Chief Marshal
We Kick Arse
Joined: October 10, 2009
Posts: 826
| Posted: 2013-08-17 09:16
@mines - their duration is very long. at a lifetime of 15 mins (900 seconds), even slow minelayer dreads can target platforms at a planet at upto 9000 gu (almost twice the max contact range). scouts and frigates can launch mines at a station that has just exited a wormhole from 4000 gu, and be absolutely sure that the station will be forced in-combat by tiny projectiles.
problem - good speed, insane lifetime
suggestion - reduce lifetime to 3-5 minutes (reducing range to 2000-7000 gu) and make mines of fast ships have less speed
mines can be targeted at anything, including planets, friendly ships, self and even projectiles. when they try to hit planets, they start abruptly moving back and forth across the planet.
problem - they dont hit planets
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
| Posted: 2013-08-17 10:01
Quote:
On 2013-08-17 09:16, Trader of Destiny wrote:
problem - good speed, insane lifetime
suggestion - reduce lifetime to 3-5 minutes (reducing range to 2000-7000 gu) and make mines of fast ships have less speed
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2 minutes. We all know about that time length. Generally, we don't like hitting a mines of an already logged off player. "destroyed by ?!" does not make sense.
About speed, as Fluttershy noted, we can cloud layering mines. In this tactics, minelayer needs to see the target and has a long runway. Most players love cloud bombing in 1.5, they sure love cloud mine laying. A skill comes with extra entertainment.
New mines are awesome, Jim.
Quote:
On 2013-08-17 09:16, Trader of Destiny wrote:
problem - they dont hit planets
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I concur. They wave as butterflies' wings.
About torp, torpedo speed has a little issue. There are two torpedoes: normal and core. Core torp has the right speed to hit dread. Normal can get a boost up to be 10gu/s faster than core torpedo to hit cruiser & destroyer.
Projectile dedicate target can be classified:
- Station, dread = strike missle, core torpedo, mines.
- Cruiser, destroyer = skirmish missle, normal torpedo, core cannon.
- Frigate, scout = cannon, beam.
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Jim Starluck
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 2232
From: Cincinnati, OH
| Posted: 2013-08-17 16:30
Quote:
On 2013-08-17 10:01, DiepLuc wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-08-17 09:16, Trader of Destiny wrote:
problem - good speed, insane lifetime
suggestion - reduce lifetime to 3-5 minutes (reducing range to 2000-7000 gu) and make mines of fast ships have less speed
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2 minutes. We all know about that time length. Generally, we don't like hitting a mines of an already logged off player. "destroyed by ?!" does not make sense.
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That would preclude their deployment ahead of enemy forces as a prepared defense.
Keep in mind that even though their maximum range is huge, they are very, very slow. Even the fastest mines, those dropped by Scouts, would take nearly 3 minutes to impact an object at maximum detection range. And the whole time those mines are in flight, the minelayer cannot launch more.
Quote:
About torp, torpedo speed has a little issue. There are two torpedoes: normal and core. Core torp has the right speed to hit dread. Normal can get a boost up to be 10gu/s faster than core torpedo to hit cruiser & destroyer.
Projectile dedicate target can be classified:
- Station, dread = strike missle, core torpedo, mines.
- Cruiser, destroyer = skirmish missle, normal torpedo, core cannon.
- Frigate, scout = cannon, beam.
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Standard torpedoes and core torpedoes have the exact same speeds as one another because they are meant to target the same type of ship. I've gone over this a few times already, but all weapon systems are meant to be used against specific targets relative to the user:
- Cannons = Used against targets 1 size smaller than you (Cannon Destroyer attacks Frigates)
- Beams = Used against targets equal in size (Beam Destroyer attacks other Destroyers)
- Torpedoes = Used against targets 1 size larger than you (Torpedo Destroyer attacks Cruisers)
- Missiles = Used against targets 2 sizes larger than you (Missile Destroyer attacks Dreads)
[ This Message was edited by: Jim Starluck on 2013-08-17 16:31 ]
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2013-08-17 17:23
Quote:
On 2013-08-17 16:30, Jim Starluck wrote:
Cannons = Used against targets 1 size smaller than you
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Why is there even a need for a weapon type to specifically target anything smaller? Point jumping in your target's face with an assault ship and unloading a couple alphas of beams and or torps is as effective in the current beta build as it ever was.
And expanding on it further.....Cannons really aren't much more accurate in beta than they are in MV now. If they're supposed to be tailored to use on ships 1 size smaller then velocity needs to be increased, especially for ICC cannons. Take an ICC Cruiser and shoot at a UGTO Destroyer and see what range you have to be to hit it reliably. Limited ammo further hampers this as the effective ranges to hit one size smaller with Rails, Particle, and Psi are approximately the same for all 3 cannons meaning you can't even take advantage of a Railgun's longer range to "spray and pray". The effective range to reliably hit for all 3 is also well within the effective damage range of Particle and Psi where falloff has little effect, meaning ICC ships need to put themselves at a disadvantage to effectively use cannons in their intended role. Then again it's been this way since I started playing.
Gauss is even less effective given it's reduced fire rate compared to what's in release.
Whatever happened to the "machine gun" versions of existing cannons with higher volley size, higher projectile speed, and lower damage that was talked about? Seems now would be the perfect time for them to make an appearance.
[ This Message was edited by: Talien on 2013-08-17 18:54 ]
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_Sajuuk_
Fleet Admiral
Joined: December 08, 2010
Posts: 38
From: Washington (state) , United States of America
| Posted: 2013-08-18 02:40
least the Battle Dread is now a true "Cannon" dread by replacing the QST's with the Proton Cannon
(why there even is a Heavy version of it is unknown due to it only ship equiped with PC's)
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Fluttershy
Fleet Admiral
Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy
| Posted: 2013-08-18 06:06
Energy entities aren't taking damage now.
Lasers don't work
Cannons don't work
Missiles don't work
Flux wave doesn't work.
100% hull the whole time.
As far as I know, they are only supposed to be immune to energy weapons.
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2013-08-18 07:38
Quote:
On 2013-08-17 17:23, Talien wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-08-17 16:30, Jim Starluck wrote:
Cannons = Used against targets 1 size smaller than you
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Why is there even a need for a weapon type to specifically target anything smaller? Point jumping in your target's face with an assault ship and unloading a couple alphas of beams and or torps is as effective in the current beta build as it ever was.
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This is largely because the total ramifcations for fleet warfare isn't very apparent yet.
It doesn't seem like a very big need when you're one ship and you can choose any one other ship to do battle with.
Now lets put you in a fleet, and you're in a ship with torps and beams, and you're fighting another fleet. Just how effective do you think you're going to be against multiple fast moving targets? Just how long do you think you will live after that first point jump? Maybe you're better off focusing your firepower on something your own size and let someone with cannons deal with it.
Cannons have the versatility of range and speed without too much damage, which give them an advantage, but not a broken advantage, for ships to target things smaller than them. But they are decently effective against equal sized ships but not so great against bigger ones.
The additional point is, you don't have to fly a cruiser if you want to shoot one kind of weapon. With different classes, they were balanced in mind to fill a role for each class with their own innate advantages related to it. Some things make better cannon boats than others in some situations. And it means no one gets left out all throughout the ranking process.
We're gonna break this mentality for using one ship for any situation one way or another, any weapons proving to be too good against multiple class types is going wind up with a nerf bat one way or another. Fleets filled with just one ship type and/or class are designed with glaring weakness so that given equal numbers, players have some form of counter.
If someone deces to bring a fleet of assault dreadnaughts to go cap a planet, go get some damn ewar missile cruisers and just rake in that prestige.
-Ent
[ This Message was edited by: Enterprise on 2013-08-18 07:45 ]
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2013-08-18 11:44
Quote:
On 2013-08-18 07:38, Enterprise wrote:
This is largely because the total ramifcations for fleet warfare isn't very apparent yet.
It doesn't seem like a very big need when you're one ship and you can choose any one other ship to do battle with.
Now lets put you in a fleet, and you're in a ship with torps and beams, and you're fighting another fleet. Just how effective do you think you're going to be against multiple fast moving targets? Just how long do you think you will live after that first point jump? Maybe you're better off focusing your firepower on something your own size and let someone with cannons deal with it.
Cannons have the versatility of range and speed without too much damage, which give them an advantage, but not a broken advantage, for ships to target things smaller than them. But they are decently effective against equal sized ships but not so great against bigger ones.
The additional point is, you don't have to fly a cruiser if you want to shoot one kind of weapon. With different classes, they were balanced in mind to fill a role for each class with their own innate advantages related to it. Some things make better cannon boats than others in some situations. And it means no one gets left out all throughout the ranking process.
We're gonna break this mentality for using one ship for any situation one way or another, any weapons proving to be too good against multiple class types is going wind up with a nerf bat one way or another. Fleets filled with just one ship type and/or class are designed with glaring weakness so that given equal numbers, players have some form of counter.
If someone decides to bring a fleet of assault dreadnaughts to go cap a planet, go get some damn ewar missile cruisers and just rake in that prestige.
-Ent
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I understand the point in it and I really hope it works out that way, what I'm getting at is cannons are not really effective for that role in their current state. Believe me I'd LOVE to see cannons have some sort of advantage over other weapon types besides sustained firepower, which can still be out repaired by drone stacking on ships that have a lot of armor. I'd also love to see larger player numbers so we can effectively use mixed fleets instead of assault ship spam, if we get the kind of rush of returning players that we did for 1.6 it'll go a long way toward that, provided we can keep them around this time.
I used a Cruiser as an example because it's the "middle of the road average joe" as far as performance goes, not super fast but not super slow either, doesn't turn on a dime but isn't a flying brick either. I really hope Scouts and Frigates will see increased use in 1.7 but I'm not really holding my breath on that given that they get instagibbed any time a larger ship with heavy beams so much as sneezes on them. Speaking of.....
I'm totally for changing any weapon that's too effective, currently that would be heavy beams (lengthen firing time to spread out the damage so smaller ships can get out of the firing arc instead of being instagibbed) and SI (needs a range nerf and/or increased falloff, 960 range with that kind of damage on luth ships?), I'd suspect IC and PC as well but I haven't done too much with them yet so I can't really say for sure one way or another. The Krill itself isn't the problem, it's the weaponry on it. I actually like that the old style Krill is making a comeback.
Yes, EW missile ships are awesome. I remember the MF wolfpacks against EAD fleets before Sparrows/Peregrines got nerfed to hell.
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Chewy Squirrel
Chief Marshal
Joined: January 27, 2003
Posts: 304
From: NYC
| Posted: 2013-08-18 11:51
Quote:
On 2013-08-18 11:44, Talien wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-08-18 07:38, Enterprise wrote:
If someone decides to bring a fleet of assault dreadnaughts to go cap a planet, go get some damn ewar missile cruisers and just rake in that prestige.
-Ent
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Yes, EW missile ships are awesome. I remember the MF wolfpacks against EAD fleets before Sparrows/Peregrines got nerfed to hell.
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Yeah exactly. My biggest fear is that if we(ICC) start using small missile ships again and start dominating UGTO dreads, the QQ will get them nerfed again. Because the last time we got told that we should use small maneuverable ships to counteract dread spam, we organized and fought a little bit too well and missile frigates got nerfed into uselessness.
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Zero28
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 25, 2006
Posts: 591
| Posted: 2013-08-18 12:22
honestly, Id rather see cannons get a damage buff and a reduced velocity to be good at ship equal size And Beams damage nerf to be good at hitting small fast ships, since there accurate
the other way around hardly makes sense. Id never design weapon made to kill a ship that can easily dodge it, as it Skins my hide with no effort
(id also enjoy seeing cannon be actual cannons instead of submachine guns, you know when they fire they go BOOM, BOOM lol, thats just me thou)
[ This Message was edited by: Zero28 on 2013-08-18 12:23 ]
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Sheraton*XO*
Chief Marshal
Faster than Light
Joined: January 18, 2013
Posts: 482
From: Keel Mountains
| Posted: 2013-08-18 12:46
At least on ICC they do go boom. That is why cannons are our primary means of tracking K'luth ships along with ions.
-Sheraton
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