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Sheraton*XO*
Chief Marshal
Faster than Light
Joined: January 18, 2013
Posts: 482
From: Keel Mountains
|  Posted: 2013-10-17 18:03
Quote:
On 2013-10-17 16:53, iwancoppa wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-10-17 14:21, Abbot wrote:
I am very reluctantly posting this because of all the crap in the past with the constant moans about certain factions being OP but i feel strongly about this - that either ICC Harpex missiles are way too powerful or UGTO Phoenix missiles are way too underpowered.
Or (and i greatly hope not) that this is the way it is ment to be.
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Last time I checked harpex did a bit less damage with more range. ICC are supposed to be the missile faction so bring some pd 
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Incorrect on at least one point. Harpex are not hte long range missiles of ICC they are the short range powerful one. LDMs are the long range missiles.
P.S. I agree with abbot on this one.
-Sheraton
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Twilit Keel Mountains traversed at last we met a dragon who spoke thus: \"Sheraton am I who interprets the signs.\"
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Sheraton*XO*
Chief Marshal
Faster than Light
Joined: January 18, 2013
Posts: 482
From: Keel Mountains
| Posted: 2013-10-17 18:07
I also note that for some reason the K'luth home gate over in Wiliams 38a and not in Sirius where Sag hoth is? Is this intentional?
-Sheraton
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Twilit Keel Mountains traversed at last we met a dragon who spoke thus: \"Sheraton am I who interprets the signs.\"
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Jahmael
1st Rear Admiral
Joined: July 02, 2013
Posts: 1
From: CaptainJahmael
| Posted: 2013-10-17 18:19
I've been playing the new update and patch steadily for a couple days now, and something is slowly revealing itself that is bugging us Uggies quite a bit. We've become a deeply underpowered faction as far as combat is concerned. Between the shields of the ICC being a little too tough to crack, and the sheer hit power of the K'luth, we're either outarmored or outgunned......
I'm not one to whine, or moan or complain, just swear a few times and get on with trying to blow up other things out in the black. But myself and some fellow players, especially ones that have been around for a long time, aren't very pleased with getting the short end of the stick as it were. (reposted from deleted thread. I already have the response I was looking for. I'm just hoping to deter too many other players from posting the same problem)
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Pantheon
Marshal
Palestar
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1789
| Posted: 2013-10-17 18:24
Quote:
On 2013-10-17 18:19, Jahmael wrote:
I've been playing the new update and patch steadily for a couple days now, and something is slowly revealing itself that is bugging us Uggies quite a bit. We've become a deeply underpowered faction as far as combat is concerned. Between the shields of the ICC being a little too tough to crack, and the sheer hit power of the K'luth, we're either outarmored or outgunned......
I'm not one to whine, or moan or complain, just swear a few times and get on with trying to blow up other things out in the black. But myself and some fellow players, especially ones that have been around for a long time, aren't very pleased with getting the short end of the stick as it were. (reposted from deleted thread. I already have the response I was looking for. I'm just hoping to deter too many other players from posting the same problem)
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As I had said in-game, and in a message to you : we're already aware and working on it.
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2013-10-17 19:31
Quote:
On 2013-10-17 18:24, Pantheon wrote:
As I had said in-game, and in a message to you : we're already aware and working on it.
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Here is my view point on the design of UGTO in general, taking elements of what I have learned from other games: (if you find this to be a pile of rubbish please take it with a grain of salt as I have not had a chance to hop into this current patch yet [something I'm really looking forward to doing this weekend], but this was just some random musing/theorycraft I had while analyzing the kill board and could possibly pinpoint a few problems that could be addressed)
In terms of possible sources of underpoweredness, firstly UGTO is feast or famine. The faction is either a mobile almighty wrecking ball or a wrecking ball too small and fragile to make a dent in enemy lines. If they outnumber, they will smash and grab in a blink of an eye, the whole fleet jumping in and focus firing, and on the defense will have quick reinforcements fully utilizing the spread of depots in home territory. If they are outnumbered, they cannot defend or attack with conventional tactics nor do they have the tools to fight unconventionally (stealth/ewar/skirmishes). On the defense they cannot counter siege the longer ranged ICC nor can they rout the persistent, wear down tactics of Kluth. On the offense they cannot employ siege warfare as ICC will simply counter siege with planetary defense, and both factions beat UGTO at longer campaigns and skirmishes without UGTO repair ship force multipliers, which are in short demand when the faction population is low. In contrast ICC when ahead make a siege followed by a final rout by closer combat ships, and when behind do guerrilla warfare combined with strong planetary defense, anti-siege tactics. Kluth, when ahead, rotate cloak cycles and focus fire important targets, and can still try to employ this tactic when outnumbered, being able to pick off at least a few enemies before being forced to jump. On the defense, they get first strike capabilities in their own territory where reinforcements for the enemy are hard to come by, and can rotate cloak cycles to even greater effect due to close proximity to repair areas, again picking off a few enemies at a time in enemy territory. Secondly, UGTO was held together for the longest time by a list of abuse cases, namely stupidly powerful repair mechanisms and really powerful all around solo ships (meet the EAD with cannon like QST fire support with the highest short range damage in the game). Now the abuse cases are gone (as they should be), the faction cannot excel in their role sans aforementioned huge wrecking ball fleet of doom vs less populated factions. Thirdly, UGTO is based much more on counterplay from the enemy rather than play from the UGTO pilot. UGTO ships are generally given less tools (e-war, agility, utility, sustain in fights), rather relying on brute force to keep up with the enemy. This rewards them for coming in hard and fast, smashing the enemy before they can stop the fleet. This also means that to win vs a UGTO fleet (bar being completely outnumbered) you simply have to stop them from coming in and annihilating you completely. While obviously much easier said than done, it still heavily rests within the enemy's hands the fate of your attack. If the enemy can avoid destruction while whittling you down, you lose. If the enemy gets caught with their pants down, you smash them to bits. Again, this fuels the feast or famine nature of UGTO.
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Sheraton*XO*
Chief Marshal
Faster than Light
Joined: January 18, 2013
Posts: 482
From: Keel Mountains
| Posted: 2013-10-17 20:44
Narrowband ECCM was targetted to a k'luth station approximately 2500 away from me. After I turned them onto the station in questoin. The station logged. However, my narrowbands never turned off.
-Sheraton
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Twilit Keel Mountains traversed at last we met a dragon who spoke thus: \"Sheraton am I who interprets the signs.\"
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[-clamup1995-]
Marshal
Joined: March 24, 2009
Posts: 125
From: Colony Hub, Sag Hothha
| Posted: 2013-10-17 20:58
I don't know if someone has already posted this but the new Nest Missiles, the Psiseeker I believe it is called, is not very agile compared to ICC or UGTO missiles, they take a VERY long time to arc and can't hit anything unless it's stationary. Please look into this.
[ This Message was edited by: clamup *XO3* on 2013-10-17 20:59 ]
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The Few. The Proud. The K'luth.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2013-10-17 21:05
Quote:
On 2013-10-17 19:31, SpaceAdmiral wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-10-17 18:24, Pantheon wrote:
As I had said in-game, and in a message to you : we're already aware and working on it.
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Here is my view point on the design of UGTO in general, taking elements of what I have learned from other games: (if you find this to be a pile of rubbish please take it with a grain of salt as I have not had a chance to hop into this current patch yet [something I'm really looking forward to doing this weekend], but this was just some random musing/theorycraft I had while analyzing the kill board and could possibly pinpoint a few problems that could be addressed)
In terms of possible sources of underpoweredness, firstly UGTO is feast or famine. The faction is either a mobile almighty wrecking ball or a wrecking ball too small and fragile to make a dent in enemy lines. If they outnumber, they will smash and grab in a blink of an eye, the whole fleet jumping in and focus firing, and on the defense will have quick reinforcements fully utilizing the spread of depots in home territory. If they are outnumbered, they cannot defend or attack with conventional tactics nor do they have the tools to fight unconventionally (stealth/ewar/skirmishes). On the defense they cannot counter siege the longer ranged ICC nor can they rout the persistent, wear down tactics of Kluth. On the offense they cannot employ siege warfare as ICC will simply counter siege with planetary defense, and both factions beat UGTO at longer campaigns and skirmishes without UGTO repair ship force multipliers, which are in short demand when the faction population is low. In contrast ICC when ahead make a siege followed by a final rout by closer combat ships, and when behind do guerrilla warfare combined with strong planetary defense, anti-siege tactics. Kluth, when ahead, rotate cloak cycles and focus fire important targets, and can still try to employ this tactic when outnumbered, being able to pick off at least a few enemies before being forced to jump. On the defense, they get first strike capabilities in their own territory where reinforcements for the enemy are hard to come by, and can rotate cloak cycles to even greater effect due to close proximity to repair areas, again picking off a few enemies at a time in enemy territory. Secondly, UGTO was held together for the longest time by a list of abuse cases, namely stupidly powerful repair mechanisms and really powerful all around solo ships (meet the EAD with cannon like QST fire support with the highest short range damage in the game). Now the abuse cases are gone (as they should be), the faction cannot excel in their role sans aforementioned huge wrecking ball fleet of doom vs less populated factions. Thirdly, UGTO is based much more on counterplay from the enemy rather than play from the UGTO pilot. UGTO ships are generally given less tools (e-war, agility, utility, sustain in fights), rather relying on brute force to keep up with the enemy. This rewards them for coming in hard and fast, smashing the enemy before they can stop the fleet. This also means that to win vs a UGTO fleet (bar being completely outnumbered) you simply have to stop them from coming in and annihilating you completely. While obviously much easier said than done, it still heavily rests within the enemy's hands the fate of your attack. If the enemy can avoid destruction while whittling you down, you lose. If the enemy gets caught with their pants down, you smash them to bits. Again, this fuels the feast or famine nature of UGTO.
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Interesting points. And pretty much true.
But what solutions do you propose?
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Iwancoppa
Fleet Admiral
Joined: November 15, 2008
Posts: 709
| Posted: 2013-10-17 21:18
Quote:
On 2013-10-17 20:58, clamup *XO3* wrote:
I don't know if someone has already posted this but the new Nest Missiles, the Psiseeker I believe it is called, is not very agile compared to ICC or UGTO missiles, they take a VERY long time to arc and can't hit anything unless it's stationary. Please look into this.
[ This Message was edited by: iwancoppa on 2013-10-18 05:58 ]
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That's how it works.
My take on the UGTO issues.
First of all, yes, I do think they're a little lacking. They don't have the instant-win kittenBBQ damage of K'luth and they don't get to shift 4 arcs on to one when attacked in one place. With mediocre range equal or slightly better to K'luth, UGTO is left high and dry. Also, having the (arguably) worst faction module doesn't help. A few of my suggestions:
I'd look at replacing the flux wave with a *battle mode* module. Think toggleable aura with significant power drain that adds 20% damage reduction.
Slightly higher armor HP. Considering it can't actually be moved, and that it's the latest military-grade technology it would make sense for it to have a decent advantage over ICC Composite. 10% health buff, for starters? Incremental change is good change.
More beams/torpedoes damage.
In unrelated news...
In addition to the generic tiered construction that provides buffs or debuffs based on loadout, I'd like to suggest that certain layouts get special modules to compliment their playstyle or provide new opportunities. Most of these classes I see as slightly underperforming or 'single use', in that they have a lower skillcap due to limitations of the setups. These modules are intended for tier one ships only.
Beams:
toggleable Aura that provides a speed boost and maneuverability/thrust debuff at the cost of significant energy drain. Literally the old overdrive, hacked in another way.
Ewar:
Essentially hacking in from a pulse or flux wave, the EWAR gadget would have a long recharge of 2 minutes. The function of the gadget would be to provide a ECM or ECCM burst over an area of X gu. The purpose of this is to either break enemy lock-ons(ECM) or provide a brief ping to allow targetting with normal ECCM modules(ECCM). The long recharge time would serve to prevent spamming, as well as a considerable energy drain.
Cannons:
Magnetic coil overdrive/Particle accelerator overload/Psionic Exertion.
A self-only aura with high energy drain that significantly increases incoming damage for a small range and accuracy buff.
Missiles:
Rapid Target Acquisition.
Halves missile range, increases signature, lowers speed and drains very large amounts of energy for a rate of fire buff.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2013-10-18 06:06
Increasing UGTO armor HP, as well as damage resist to the corresponding armor types should help with their survivability.
Other than that, perhaps making the flux damage shields HP, and also giving it more armor/hull penetration to cause system damage?
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Forger of Destiny
Chief Marshal
We Kick Arse
Joined: October 10, 2009
Posts: 826
| Posted: 2013-10-18 06:55
ugto cant have strong firepower, that is the kluth specialty.
ugto cant have strong defences, that is the ICC specialty.
it would be nice if ugto ships had better energy. conversely, make it so kluth and ICC have worse energy.
they dont need their energy reserves to last as long as the UGTO's. kluth quickly empty their batteries into pure firepower, while ICC sustain damage over time with high regen shields backed by the same batteries the ugto have (not to mention the extra reactor they often get for shields).
if EMP damage everywhere also gets a buff, i think ugto fleets could use attrition warfare better, by disabling enemy ships and slowly pummeling them down with cannons and fighters.
as a tradeoff, i think QST could have some of its damage shaved off while using less energy per shot. non-ugto players seem to find it the cornerstone of our wrecking-ball nature anyways.
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2013-10-18 07:10
I would target fleet synergy, there is a certain disconnect between some of the ships, causing a not fully developed fleet to be completely lacking with a fully developed on to be overbearing. Also do remember, anything underpowered can be fixed with number tweaks but it stands that balancing in that method will be difficult if the design of the faction itself is hard to balance, as in feast/famine. In a way depot spam was a number abuse case, and while it did make UGTO “viable” it made them incredibly ridiculous to play as and against.
Almost all UGTO ships can CQC, sans the carriers and missile ships. This means when a fleet is fully developed and isn’t completely intimidated/outnumbered, the whole fleet can come in and brawl, being an effective force multiplier. In contrast, at long ranges (where UGTO will have to fight, especially when outnumbered), the whole UGTO fleet lacks synergy. You have UGTO’s signature carriers, but in UGTO optimal quick brawling combat the fighter wings may not contribute too much, a nice set of cannons that lend fire support but take time to reach the enemy. In non-optimal UGTO standoff and long range combat, they contribute a lot. The problem is that the rest of the fleet can’t. So you have the situation where at long and far out standoff ranges the UGTO fleet is little more than unsynergized CQC ships waiting around while carriers and cannon ships pepper the enemy. And then you have the situation where the UGTO fleet all goes in to brawl and every single ship sans dedicated carriers and missile boats can contribute a lot, a force multiplier. Again, a major problem is that the enemy often dictates engagement ranges sans deep space/UGTO planet combat between ICC and an equivalent or larger UGTO fleet. Also, fighters in general lack kill potential due their nature being mobile torps or cannons that cannot jump, nor track, and their being inconsistent dps platforms (good strafing runs vs bad ones due to angle/range/enemy formation). While we cannot directly address many of these problems, only fix in a way with number increases, there are certain concepts that could be employed. Iwancoppa’s “battle mode” is interesting, but it would make a number powerful UGTO fleet very hard to deal with while still not fixing the lack of ability to fight ICC when they can dictate battle range with numbers, or Kluth with their cloak rotations.
One idea I think would be decent to fix the lack of fighter kill potential and longer range engagement powers would be different types of fighters, particularly an antihull flux fighter. This fighter would ideally deal much less dps than fighters or torp bombers to armor or shields, but wreck hull and systems once hull is exposed. Firstly this will have play and counterplay, as the user you want to keep these fighters ready to engage hulled targets without exposing them to too much pd, which will happen if you simply command them to attack like normal fighters. Counterplay wise, you have to be wary of these fighters when hulled, so planning escape routes and concentrated pd coverage over some ships will be key, kind of like missiles. These fighters would have a lot of interaction with retargeting, always seeking out ideal targets and from angles they are hulled from. Balancing of these fighters, ie their actual dps, maneuverability, speed, engagement range, fuel, and medium of delivering flux damage can all be figured out as needed. Concept wise, against an outnumbered enemy a UGTO fleet will quickly kill any hulled target anyways, so it doesn’t contribute too much to the feast part. When evenly numbered/outnumbered these will definitely synergize with helping the UGTO fleet secure the kill in standoff ranges without the fleet needing to wade too deep into enemy ranks, and also helps solve UGTO’s complete lack of kill potential long range. UGTO will still struggle to damage enemies at longer ranges, but if they actually do manage to hull an enemy the enemy can be punished for it, the same way Kluth ships can punish bad positioning combined with low armor/shield values. So while not a complete fix, I can see this allowing UGTO to have more tools to fight back with when evenly matched or out matched, while not contributing significantly to when they are ahead. As a generalist pick they will deal less dps than other choices overall due to not being always hitting hull, but allow for concentrated threat potential when it matters; my goal is not for 12 flux aggies to be the go to, but rather having a few per carrier or maybe one dedicated flux carrier in a fleet as a tool for the faction. And that is basically my goal here, to give UGTO tools that help with play/counterplay and allow them to fight against the odds while not significantly contributing to their feast states of force multipliers. This fighter gives benefit mainly in the UGTO vs ICC matchup, but like all flux weapons this also allows UGTO to hamper cloak rotations through significant kill potential and module damage when hulled, which is usually when kluth ships start using cloak to distribute fire among the ships of the fleet. Overall, the fighter gives off threat which stops both enemy factions from doing simple fleet rotations to redistribute fire by taking their threatened ships to areas/states where UGTO have little kill potential, namely ICC ships simply backing off into ally coverfire and Kluth cloaking at standoff ranges where flux cannons (name of the flux beams), flux waves, and flux torps have trouble hitting if in range at all, and thus worrying less about cloak being knocked out by systems damage by most weapon systems except for emp cannons.
If this flux fighter idea has merit, balance wise it still be a bit of a challenge to nail the perfect combination of speed, maneuverability, engagement range, accuracy, fuel, and dps. I propose a fast, surgical strike type fighter with large fuel capacity and a flux beam just slightly longer range than interceptor fighter beams (so a last minute interceptor launch from an enemy carrier doesn’t simply wipe them all out), balanced by horrid armor and shield dps. This is so that vs small ships, you cannot fire and forget as that would accomplish little except allow them to drag said fighters to pd while taking scratches to outer protection, but you can send them to chase after a hulled small ship attempting to hide in their fleet instead of going to a dedicated repair site, taking out a gun from the fight much longer than currently. Being fast and with high fuel allows them to hover in fights and come in from different angles when controlled by the user, and the shorter range of their beams means that enemy interceptor cover will be effective in intercepting these fighters. This allows for complex fighter dances with interceptors taking each other out, allowing the flux fighters through to the damaged backlines where ships may be recuperating. My primary concern would be the balance of dps vs armor/shields and hull. Too much hull dps to make up for bad armor/shield dps will make these incredibly frustrating, too little and they aren’t worth losing armor/shield dps. Too much armor/shield dps in turn to make them worth more will simply turn these into the old overpowered beta interceptors. Another concern would be the ability of the fighter UI – can the UI handle these micromanagement movements and tactical positioning without screwing up or feeling too clunky? (Also again, a different iteration of the flux fighter can be made if this version lacks the ability to be balanced or if they do not meet the goals set)
Any thoughts to my suggestion and my overall thought process, analysis, and goals?
Edit: In response to:
"Increasing UGTO armor HP, as well as damage resist to the corresponding armor types should help with their survivability.
Other than that, perhaps making the flux damage shields HP, and also giving it more armor/hull penetration to cause system damage? "
Armor and HP are always decent balancing parameters, and probably are safe to balance.
As for flux buffs, I could see that helping even/outnumbered matchups quite a bit while not getting the UGTO wrecking ball fleets out of hand, I think this would be safe to buff, also gives UGTO a niche/tools that other factions do not have. Same with emp buffs.
[ This Message was edited by: SpaceAdmiral on 2013-10-18 07:16 ]
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2013-10-18 07:26
Quote:
On 2013-10-17 16:31, Scorched Soul[+R] wrote:
I have noticed that the reflection, on K'Luth fighters at least, completely obscures the texture on the side that faces the sun and the other side is too dark to see when you zoom in.
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I noticed this too. I cut bloom back to see if that would help but nope. I see this on more than a few models period, dreads, cruisers, etc included.
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2013-10-18 07:34
Sorry a bad suggestion as always. Don't look here!
[ This Message was edited by: Azreal on 2013-10-23 16:01 ]
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2013-10-18 07:49
Quote:
On 2013-10-17 21:18, iwancoppa wrote:
I'd look at replacing the flux wave with a *battle mode* module. Think toggleable aura with significant power drain that adds 20% damage reduction.
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So like a Super Mode where you basically get +x% to everything (via enhancements) but it takes a flat percentage of your maximum energy every second (so it only lasts, say, 60 seconds or 90 seconds max)
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