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[1.7] Soft-release Feedback |
The Fridge
Chief Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: December 13, 2008
Posts: 559
From: In Your Fridge, Eating your Foods.
|  Posted: 2013-10-21 10:19
Oh hi wall, nice to meet you.
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2013-10-21 11:17
So the biggest complaint so far is a ...numbers issue? No core mechanics that are broken? No glaring flaws in ship designs? No stupid game breaking bugs? No server latency issues? No rampant faction imbalance issues? You're telling me that the only issue is a game mechanic that always existed but is suddenly cast into the limelight because the numbers need to be tweaked on it ...?
EWAR has always existed, the mechanic of "once you're zero or below signature you're invisible" has always existed, the mechanic of "Visible distance" has already existed. The only thing that changed is some extremely easy to modify numbers related to those mechanics.
I'd say that's pretty good. When the largest complaints of a version are about numbers I'd consider that a success.
Also, I know we all love to get heated up over this game (because we all love it so very much) but I think it'd be prudent if we don't start yelling at each other. Their are some radical changes to gameplay mechanics in this version and I think both sides (Players and Developers) should be more ...open about the other side's thoughts.
tl;dr: numbers op nerf plz
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2013-10-21 11:24
Quote:
On 2013-10-21 11:17, Fattierob wrote:
So the biggest complaint so far is a ...numbers issue?
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That's the EWAR problem that I see really. You can stack it far too much, and it can be overwhelming for the other team to try to fight.
See, I don't see an issue with visual detection because once you get a small ship above a few signature you can detect it very very easily - or you should anyways. If not, its an actual bug.
But the problem is, you can keep pulling out EWAR and make it impossible to counter due to... numbers.
So I would rather have some more non-player managed ways to deploy EWAR (like better platforms) and have an upper and lower cap (something like +/- 20 sig)
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Bardiche
Chief Marshal
Joined: November 16, 2006
Posts: 1247
| Posted: 2013-10-21 11:31
Quote:
On 2013-10-21 10:19, The Fridge wrote:
Oh hi wall, nice to meet you.
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I believe that if I talk to the wall long enough, it will come to life.
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Feedback would be helpful if its informative and it falls within what is supposed to happen.
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I don't know what you mean by this; It reads as, "We only want to hear what we want to hear". Can you clarify what this is meant to mean?
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So far, the only thing I've observed is players who either don't understand how the system works, refuse to try to adapt to the system. I've watched players sit there and stubbornly refuse to leave their big ships, players who absolutelly will not play as a team.
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The "only" thing? Then you have not paid proper attention, because some of us who find EWar to be an unfun mechanic right now have tried to counter the ECM spam. I guess developers have fun playing scouts, but you have to accept that not your entire playerbase will enjoy flying around in an ECCM scout with nothing in the way of weaponry, hoping and praying that their allies will instead get all the shooting and excitement of combat out.
So, if your enemies bring even one more ECM tool than you have, and you do not have allies willing or able to jump into an ECCM counter-scout... well, you're pretty much being futile. You cannot hit scouts with beacons, and unless you bring ECM yourself (and get in super close range), you run the risk of your beacons being destroyed by Point Defence.
Some of us try to do everything right but cannot convince others to do the same because it does not fit what they find fun. To turn on those who try and say, "Hey, quit your whining and learn2play" is insulting. I'm pretty sure I've tried doing exactly what you propose here, and so has Fridge.
I find it ironic you agree something is wrong with EWar but simultaneously talk down on all the players who think so. But no, you're right. After all, we're lowly players who can't adapt. There's surely no chance we're pointing out that the EWar system has issues because we tried to work against it.
Azreal being unable to counter-act a Bomber Dreadnought's ECM is obviously because he didn't try hard enough. What a punk. Should've flown a Frigate against a Dreadnought.
[ This Message was edited by: Bardiche on 2013-10-21 11:33 ]
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2013-10-21 11:59
Quote:
So, if your enemies bring even one more ECM tool than you have, and you do not have allies willing or able to jump into an ECCM counter-scout... well, you're pretty much being futile. You cannot hit scouts with beacons, and unless you bring ECM yourself (and get in super close range), you run the risk of your beacons being destroyed by Point Defence.
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So you can hit them.
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Some of us try to do everything right but cannot convince others to do the same because it does not fit what they find fun. To turn on those who try and say, "Hey, quit your whining and learn2play" is insulting. I'm pretty sure I've tried doing exactly what you propose here, and so has Fridge.
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So we should force other players to fly ships only you want them to fly too? Thats pretty insulting. Other players find the new mechanics refreshing and enjoyable from years of nothing but boring Dreadspace combat.
Quote:
I find it ironic you agree something is wrong with EWar but simultaneously talk down on all the players who think so. But no, you're right. After all, we're lowly players who can't adapt. There's surely no chance we're pointing out that the EWar system has issues because we tried to work against it.
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You see, this is what probably boils my blood the most. There is a misconception of how things work, you explain it - all the while mind you, people are throwing insults at you from telling you how they work - and then its twisted around (while being condescending no less) to be talking down.
And yet, these are changes that have existed in Beta for months. Announced loudly with clear intentions to players.
There were plenty of opportunities for feedback then. How can I be assured players actually know what to expect when they don't test Beta, let alone read the Dev log?
And you can't expect talking down to me to be recieved with any kind of open arms, Developer or not. Feedback should be constricted to factual information.
Quote:
Azreal being unable to counter-act a Bomber Dreadnought's ECM is obviously because he didn't try hard enough. What a punk. Should've flown a Frigate against a Dreadnought.
[ This Message was edited by: Ent on 2013-10-21 12:03 ]
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Dreadnaughts have a massive visual detection range! Seriously! All those ECM on the Strike Carrier mean diddly after around 400gu.
I mean comon man, I know that having an army of EWAR frigates is annoying, but revealing a Dread is cake.
You have to understand a few things here Bard:
1. Context is everything. Say... you can't reveal an ECM Bomber Dread. Why? Were you right next to it? Thats a bug. Right next to is 1k away and its negative signature? No.
2. Details are also everything. Twice. Me and Jim spent a lot of time in Beta making ABSOLUTELY SURE that minimum detection range wasn't bad, and it wasn't.
3. If its just the fact that ships can hide from you is annoying.. well we can't fix that without redoing the whole balance shceme again, so if you want to wait another year, sure. One way or another we are determined to make sure smaller ships are capable fighters.
Maybe with less appeals to emotion, less attacks on peoples character, and more factual information? You get a lot nicer response that way.
Oh and just because we don't agree with what players think doesn't make us nazis. Sometimes, the customer is not always right.
There ARE issues, some of which I highlighted above. You would probably even agree with them.
-Ent
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Chewy Squirrel
Chief Marshal
Joined: January 27, 2003
Posts: 304
From: NYC
| Posted: 2013-10-21 12:05
Quote:
On 2013-10-21 11:59, Ent wrote:
Other players find the new mechanics refreshing and enjoyable from years of nothing but boring Dreadspace combat.
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Oh god yes this. And we are sitting here hoping that the devs don't cave and restore dreadspace!
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2013-10-21 12:16
incomplete feedback given
[ This Message was edited by: Azreal on 2013-10-23 16:04 ]
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2013-10-21 12:18
bad questions asked
[ This Message was edited by: Azreal on 2013-10-23 16:05 ]
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AdmiralChaos
Chief Marshal
Joined: October 08, 2008
Posts: 274
| Posted: 2013-10-21 12:23
The best thing about this game (in my eyes of course) has always been and will always be every action you make has an impact on your score/prestige/rank.
With that said, this new importance of EWAR doesn't adapt to this (in my eyes) core mechanic this game has always had, mentioned above.
I know its been brought up before, and theres no real easy way to reward this type of 'team player' role. I just know I will always fly and do what will reward me personally before I even consider flying a small support ship. I really like the group system now, but it wouldn't be enough for me alone.
Other than that fact, I really do like the whole system, and I realize you cannot build around faction imbalance, but thats the biggest issue with the whole thing. From what I've noticef anyway, and with no incentive to counter that, not a whole lot you can do.
I still think we should have more incentives for faction or fleet loyalty.. but thats not really relevant for this thread.
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2013-10-21 12:27
Quote:
AI less than 20 gu away couldnt even see my big ass sitting there uncloaked.
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Sounds like a bug to me.
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AdmiralChaos
Chief Marshal
Joined: October 08, 2008
Posts: 274
| Posted: 2013-10-21 12:38
Quote:
On 2013-10-21 12:23, AdmiralChaos *FL* wrote:
The best thing about this game (in my eyes of course) has always been and will always be every action you make has an impact on your score/prestige/rank.
With that said, this new importance of EWAR doesn't adapt to this (in my eyes) core mechanic this game has always had, mentioned above.
I know its been brought up before, and theres no real easy way to reward this type of 'team player' role. I just know I will always fly and do what will reward me personally before I even consider flying a small support ship. I really like the group system now, but it wouldn't be enough for me alone.
Other than that fact, I really do like the whole system, and I realize you cannot build around faction imbalance, but thats the biggest issue with the whole thing. From what I've noticef anyway, and with no incentive to counter that, not a whole lot you can do.
I still think we should have more incentives for faction or fleet loyalty.. but thats not really relevant for this thread.
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I also wouldn't think adding a new stat thats terribly difficult to get would be a good idea. Or maybe even combine it with scout stat. Something like if you run ECM or ECCM near enemies for 30 seconds would net you .1 prestige. Low enough to where people wouldn't exploit it but high enough to where you get something for it. Maybe even add new badges with said stat and requiring these fancy ewar ships to have them.. would be a nice motivational tool like privateer. I understand something like this may take time or out of the realm of possibility.. just a suggestion..
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I'll chain you to the truth,
For the truth shall set you free,
I'll turn the screws of vengeance,
And bury you with honesty.
I'll make all your dreams come to life,
And slay them as quickly as they came.
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Walrus of Apathy
Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: August 07, 2005
Posts: 466
From: Dorans Basement
| Posted: 2013-10-21 12:40
Quote:
On 2013-10-21 12:27, Fattierob wrote:
Quote:
AI less than 20 gu away couldnt even see my big ass sitting there uncloaked.
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Sounds like a bug to me.
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If the ship is within ~400 GU of your dread, it can detect you regardless of your sig, super low in the negatives or not.
The much more likely explanation for this is that, as we all are very well aware, the AI is still completely pants on head retarded, which is another issue all together.
My personal idea on the EWAR crap is putting a clamp on how far into the negatives your sig can go, so that it's still useful to bring EWAR ships for support but only up to a point, probably around -20 or so.
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2013-10-21 12:41
Quote:
On 2013-10-21 12:38, AdmiralChaos *FL* wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-10-21 12:23, AdmiralChaos *FL* wrote:
The best thing about this game (in my eyes of course) has always been and will always be every action you make has an impact on your score/prestige/rank.
With that said, this new importance of EWAR doesn't adapt to this (in my eyes) core mechanic this game has always had, mentioned above.
I know its been brought up before, and theres no real easy way to reward this type of 'team player' role. I just know I will always fly and do what will reward me personally before I even consider flying a small support ship. I really like the group system now, but it wouldn't be enough for me alone.
Other than that fact, I really do like the whole system, and I realize you cannot build around faction imbalance, but thats the biggest issue with the whole thing. From what I've noticef anyway, and with no incentive to counter that, not a whole lot you can do.
I still think we should have more incentives for faction or fleet loyalty.. but thats not really relevant for this thread.
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I also wouldn't think adding a new stat thats terribly difficult to get would be a good idea. Or maybe even combine it with scout stat. Something like if you run ECM or ECCM near enemies for 30 seconds would net you .1 prestige. Low enough to where people wouldn't exploit it but high enough to where you get something for it. Maybe even add new badges with said stat and requiring these fancy ewar ships to have them.. would be a nice motivational tool like privateer. I understand something like this may take time or out of the realm of possibility.. just a suggestion..
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I'm not opposed to this. I agree that it feels silly to require grouping up in order for these support roles to be rewarded.
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Bardiche
Chief Marshal
Joined: November 16, 2006
Posts: 1247
| Posted: 2013-10-21 12:42
Quote:
On 2013-10-21 11:59, Ent wrote:
So you can hit them.
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No, you can't, because a scout going at 35gu/s cannot gain in on a scout going 35gu/s. To say nothing of beacon velocity and tracking being too poor to hit a scout that turns even a little.
Quote:
So we should force other players to fly ships only you want them to fly too? Thats pretty insulting. Other players find the new mechanics refreshing and enjoyable from years of nothing but boring Dreadspace combat.
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I don't follow how "countering ECM is nice in theory but frustratingly unfun in practice when people don't cooperate" flows into "you want everyone to fly Dreadnoughts". I also don't follow how thinking the current mechanics don't work implies I don't like them at all.
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You see, this is what probably boils my blood the most. There is a misconception of how things work, you explain it - all the while mind you, people are throwing insults at you from telling you how they work - and then its twisted around (while being condescending no less) to be talking down.
And yet, these are changes that have existed in Beta for months. Announced loudly with clear intentions to players.
There were plenty of opportunities for feedback then. How can I be assured players actually know what to expect when they don't test Beta, let alone read the Dev log?
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Newsflash: 1.8 actually made older players come back and try the game again. No one tested beta because some of us weren't around back then. Whenever you explain things, you use terms like "no one does" and "everyone will" and "if you thought just a little" and "learn to adapt". That is the kind of attitude that begs the same attitude in return.
I looked through the thread and I don't see anyone throwing insults your way. At most I disagreed about all ships having different ranges because Jim told me they had the same range. Dreadnoughts and scouts are equally blind. If this information is wrong then it's not insulting, it's Jim providing wrong information.
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And you can't expect talking down to me to be recieved with any kind of open arms, Developer or not. Feedback should be constricted to factual information.
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You don't get to say "all I see here is whine whine whine, learn to adapt, if you can't others will" and then complain about being treated in kind. If you only want factual information and not how players experience the game, you should say you're not interested in people's emotions and feelings and experiences, just in crunched numbers.
Quote:
Maybe with less appeals to emotion, less attacks on peoples character, and more factual information? You get a lot nicer response that way.
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See above. Saying "all I see is whine" and "no one tries to do y" and "everyone is doing x" is also an attack on people's character, and also lacks factual information (because assuredly not everyone sits around in Dreads and wishes for ECM to magically disappear). Take your own advice: If you'd taken just a moment to ask if we had done x and y and z which were designed counter-measures, I'd have been very civil in telling you all about how I tried and what problems I encountered in doing so.
Shame that it isn't factual information, but the way people experience the game is valuable and should be considered during development processes. You're not maintaining a game for robots, but for people.
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Oh and just because we don't agree with what players think doesn't make us nazis. Sometimes, the customer is not always right.
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I can't recall claiming otherwise. But when your customers say "hey, mechanic x is wonky/unfun/broken", the least you can do is either take a look at it, or inform the customer it's working as intended, instead of telling them to learn2play because you're too lazy to grab something else and too stupid to do y.
Azrael hits the nail on the head. The matter is frustrated by ECM obscuring how many ships the enemy has, and thus denying you the opportunity to approximate how much ECCM you need to bring. It's fine if ships can hide themselves from your sensors, it's not fine if the game becomes a mathematical equation of If ECM > ECCM then VICTORY = CERTAIN.
You'll find that most of our issues are raised with respect to spotting small ships while flying small ships. No one expects a Dreadnought to unveil a Frigate or Destroyer.
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2013-10-21 13:40
Quote:
On 2013-10-21 12:42, Bardiche wrote:
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I'm not going to lie, I didn't read any of it. We're not turning this into a quote war.
If you have specific feedback, please make sure that it is comprehensive, concise, and please leave hyperbole and exaggerations out. This is because we will test configurations and cirumcstances to make sure that visual detection is bug free.
As far as to whether visual detection is too low, thats arguable. I don't think so, and it's better to be left unchanged. A lot of balance mechanics depend on it.
As far as EWAR goes, like most things in DS, stacking is usually a bad thing in excess. I'd rather it be limited to maximum EWAR that can be applied to a ship. That way even if you're outnumbered, you can reasonably counter it.
As far as actually countering EWAR:
Most ships come with targeted EWAR, and it has a lot of range. Don't forget to use it, its easy to.
Sensor bases are cheap and easy to build on any planet, theres no reason to have a few, just in case. It helps massively against Kluth anyways.
Same thing applies to sensor platforms.
As for beacons, you can hit scouts. There is no minimum range, I typically just fly over then and smack them with one. Since my encounters with scouts was actually rare (except for watching that nice swarm the other night), its even more useful against the larger EWAR ships which are arguably more annoying (I'm looking at you ICC cruisers).
If you are having trouble with visual detection:
- Only scouts and frigates are really low, but just getting close enough with a scout with a scanner on will make it much, much, much easier. To get rid of a temporary problem, its worth it.
- If you really absolutely refuse to fly something small enough to chase them down, use cannons. Small ships with EWAR lose armor for it, and they can't take a hailfire. Dread level mines also have a pretty deceny AoE (120gu) and you can lace an area well with them.
- Avoid natural ECM areas such as nebula
They're not 100% effective, but it works.
Also, one more thing. I play the game. I read the chat, I watch what players do. And no, not every player spontaneously choses to do the right thing and grab the right ship at the right time. I watched three dreads and a station sit there for ten minutes while several scouts and cruiser just fired away. We balanced mechanics in such a way that, had they chosen destroyers instead which had no ewar whatsoever - that fleet would have been equally screwed by its inability to change out.
And its just one example, players can be very stubborn.
Well hey, I mean.. if its INTENDED, rewritting hundreds of layouts because a player doesn't think a a particular balance mechanic is correct, is well..
Beta gave people all the opportunity in the world to voice their opinions.
I know players want play what they want, but letting players do that has caused issues (because naturally most has their favorite ship, and it has to be a good ship good enough to beat things). This version (and the subsequent ones) aren't designed with you alone in battle.. So any balance changes that undermine that, will be tough to argue for.
Now, I want to apologize to Azreal. I did not mean to be rude when I said "adapt'. I meant that players will need to. We do not want EWAR to be the most important thing in the game. WE DONT WANT IT TO BE. THAT WOULD BE SO ANNOYING.
Quote:
I pulled 6 different ships at Sag. Never was able to counter the ecm that the engy was producing there. This with others also running eccm, and a bunch of plats.
Have used Mirage (pd cruiser?) vs bomber dread. 1 sensor on planet. ECCM was unable to effectively counter ecm, and bombs were visible for 1 sec. Effect was only half were pd'd.
I dont care either way, for the record. The harder ship detection is the more of a playground for K'Luth, to be sure. I just wonder if EWAR hasn't become too central to DS.
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But this doesn't help at all! What six ships? What others running ECM? What was the sig? Dammit man! Specifcis! Yes I should have asked for them!
So I'm sorry.
But hey, we need more than this. As far as I know, there could have been another ship hiding you. It honestly sounds that way.. though minimum detection would have revealed the bomber (but not the bombs or the ECM'er). THE DEVIL IS IN THE DETAILS.
And I say this, because we really did test the hell out of detectability before we pushed this to release. It was very important for us for it not to be too broken. We want players to adapt, not be forced into just one ship role.
Adaptability, is the core feature of the way ranks are set out. It gives new players entry level ways into mechanics of the game as well as giving veteran players an UNPRECEDENTED amount of choices.
I understand, that players desire profitability in their goals. Thats what I feel EWAR needs the most, on top of stack limits. But Darkspace is designed now (and will be continually reinforced with this design) for players to be continually fitting different roles.
So yes, sometimes, you gotta get out of that Dread. Sometimes you can't fly your favorite Destroyer. Sometimes its about the team. And its arguably a more rich, more varied experience to present to players the necessary options.
Its important to make them necessary, you understand? We do not want one single ship type to go to waste. Help us out on that one.
[ This Message was edited by: Ent on 2013-10-21 14:42 ]
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