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[Beta] Dreadnaught layouts |
Azure Prower
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2006
Posts: 309
|  Posted: 2011-05-10 19:54
Quote:
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On 2011-05-10 19:22, General Zod wrote:
With this change the Siphon is clearly superior, whereas before the two ships played different.
I hope the change isn't because some don't want to deal with the headache of enhancements? Keep them as they are now, unique.
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Considering no one uses the Mandi because the Siphon is superior currently. I see no difference.
The Siphon is the higher ranked ship. Thus is superior.
The Krill on the other hand...
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Jim Starluck
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 2232
From: Cincinnati, OH
| Posted: 2011-05-10 20:24
Okay guys, question time. Which set of weapons would you rather have?
4x Dual-arc ELF Beam ( 2 FP, 2 FS )
12x Dual-arc AM Torpedo (6 FP, 6 FS)
OR
6x Dual-arc ELF Beam ( 3 FP, 3 FS )
8x Dual-arc AM Torpedo ( 4 FP, 4 FS )
Keep in mind, this will be in addition to all the Disruptors.
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Ravendark
Marshal
Sanity Assassins
Joined: July 01, 2010
Posts: 443
| Posted: 2011-05-10 20:30
revised layouts look promising. i tested our current layouts in beta. well....it feels like something is missing. siphon, holds good, i miss negative sig capability at stand still thou...totaly mess up my strategies...but ok. i get a feeling ELFs still dont get you much energy. with more diruptors its even bigger energy hog. thats why i like the revisited layouts more.
as for the mandy...im not sure. but i expected psi cannons to do more damage at such numbers. well, i dont know...maybe its meant to be like that. just my tought.
looking at the way things are going, i would suggest removing SI from siphon and putting up some more ELF and diruptors, maybe some torps for the kick, or another AHR, making it close range ripper.
and putting some addition mid range weapons on mandi, pack of missiles, or some more SI's. just to make more mid-close range terror.
just to make some role difference between them. siphon excells at close range,regenerates faster (would be good since they are more likeley to get lost of punishment. mandi mid range ship, well...it has range, eads would have to get closer to really hurt it. and it could be a bit more maneuverable, to get to a clear shot when siphons are dancing in close
oh and gangila, i find psi cannons useless. since its a long range ship, its strategy would be to keed the hell away from the target. i would replace them with more missiles, maybe add few disruptors..the basic ones...to have some decent PD. and maybe add some more ecms or somthing. no fighters. gangila should really use more ecms, perhapt to give it ability to slowly move with negative sig, but still somehow to become positive when firing.
just my tought, what i would do if i was dev 
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2011-05-10 20:43
Quote:
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On 2011-05-10 19:54, Azure Prower wrote:
Quote:
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On 2011-05-10 19:22, General Zod wrote:
With this change the Siphon is clearly superior, whereas before the two ships played different.
I hope the change isn't because some don't want to deal with the headache of enhancements? Keep them as they are now, unique.
|
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Considering no one uses the Mandi because the Siphon is superior currently. I see no difference.
The Siphon is the higher ranked ship. Thus is superior.
The Krill on the other hand...
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It shouldn't be superior, it should be different. I like the idea that the Siphon is an upgraded Parasite with all beam weapons.
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Azure Prower
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2006
Posts: 309
| Posted: 2011-05-10 21:10
Quote:
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On 2011-05-10 20:43, General Zod wrote:
Quote:
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On 2011-05-10 19:54, Azure Prower wrote:
Quote:
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On 2011-05-10 19:22, General Zod wrote:
With this change the Siphon is clearly superior, whereas before the two ships played different.
I hope the change isn't because some don't want to deal with the headache of enhancements? Keep them as they are now, unique.
|
|
Considering no one uses the Mandi because the Siphon is superior currently. I see no difference.
The Siphon is the higher ranked ship. Thus is superior.
The Krill on the other hand...
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It shouldn't be superior, it should be different. I like the idea that the Siphon is an upgraded Parasite with all beam weapons.
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It's kind of the same with UGTO and ICC Battle and Combat Dread ships. Once they have access to the Assault ship. Rarely any one goes back to the lower ranked ships because they are inherently weaker.
Quote:
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On 2011-05-10 20:24, Jim Starluck wrote:
Okay guys, question time. Which set of weapons would you rather have?
4x Dual-arc ELF Beam ( 2 FP, 2 FS )
12x Dual-arc AM Torpedo (6 FP, 6 FS)
OR
6x Dual-arc ELF Beam ( 3 FP, 3 FS )
8x Dual-arc AM Torpedo ( 4 FP, 4 FS )
Keep in mind, this will be in addition to all the Disruptors.
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Is this the Siphon? Already thought it was getting 6 ELF beams and 12 AM Torps?
[ This Message was edited by: Azure Prower on 2011-05-10 21:13 ]
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Jim Starluck
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 2232
From: Cincinnati, OH
| Posted: 2011-05-10 21:20
Nope. Changing it up again, and trying to decide which I'll go with.
At the moment they're looking like so:
Mandible
The Mandible is the lead Mantis class, a breed of K'luth warships of comparable size and power to human dreadnoughts. As is typical of K'luth designs it employs heavy beam and torpedo batteries to engage targets at close-range, but also carries mid-range weapons to soften its enemies up before striking the killing blow. The Mandible serves as the backbone of the K'luth Armada, and is often the most prominent heavy warship in their battle fleets.
Proposed layout:
- 1x Antimatter Jump Drive
- 4x PIE Drive
- 7x Organic Armor ( 2 F, 2 P, 2 S, 1 A )
- 1x Cloaking Device
- 1x AHR
- 2x Full-arc Disruptor
- 4x Dual-arc Disruptor ( 2 FP, 2 FS )
- 2x Dual-arc Assault Disruptor ( 1 FP, 1 FS )
- 4x Dual-arc Stellar Incinerator ( 1 FP, 1 FS )
- 4x Dual-arc Heavy Psi Cannon ( 2 FP, 2 FS )
- 1x Fore-arc Heavy Psi Cannon
- 12x Dual-arc AM Torpedo ( 6 FP, 6 FS )
- 1x ECM
- 2x Auxiliary Reactor
Siphon
The Siphon is a heavy Mantis variant with a reinforced hull. It is significantly more durable than the Mandible and carries a heavier armament as well. Where the Mandible employs a variety of weapons the Siphon relies on antimatter torpedoes and heavy assault disruptors to rip its targets apart. To help feed the titanic energy needs of these weapons it also carries several ELF Beams to drain energy directly from its target, crippling its ability to fight back or flee. A brutal predator of a warship, the Siphon often backs up Mandible strike forces.
Proposed layout:
- 1x Antimatter Jump Drive
- 4x PIE Drive
- 8x Organic Armor ( 3 F, 2 P, 2 S, 1 A )
- 1x Cloaking Device
- 1x AHR
- 2x Full-arc Disruptor
- 4x Dual-arc Disruptor ( 2 FP, 2 FS )
- 4x Dual-arc Assault Disruptor ( 3 FP, 3 FS )
- 4x Fore-arc Assault Disruptor
- 6x Dual-arc ELF Beam ( 3 FP, 3 FS )
- 2x Dual-arc Stellar Incinerator ( 1 FP, 1 FS )
- 8x Dual-arc AM Torpedo ( 4 FP, 4 FS )
- 1x ECM
- 1x Auxiliary Reactor
So the Siphon is more beam-heavy while the Mandible tends more towards mid-range, but still closer than, say, a Battle or Combat Dread. I'm just not sure if I want the Siphon to have that many ELFs and that few Torpedoes or not.
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MarineKingPrime
Marshal
Exathra Alliance Fleet
Joined: October 04, 2010
Posts: 239
From: CSS CheezyBagels
| Posted: 2011-05-10 21:25
Quote:
| It's kind of the same with UGTO and ICC Battle and Combat Dread ships. Once they have access to the Assault ship. Rarely any one goes back to the lower ranked ships because they are inherently weaker. |
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It's that kind of rationalization thats made this game into a station heavy game, with little to no crusiers.
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Azure Prower
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2006
Posts: 309
| Posted: 2011-05-10 22:17
Quote:
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On 2011-05-10 21:20, Jim Starluck wrote:
Mandible
Proposed layout:
- 1x Antimatter Jump Drive
- 4x PIE Drive
- 7x Organic Armor ( 2 F, 2 P, 2 S, 1 A )
- 1x Cloaking Device
- 1x AHR
- 2x Full-arc Disruptor
- 4x Dual-arc Disruptor ( 2 FP, 2 FS )
- 2x Dual-arc Assault Disruptor ( 1 FP, 1 FS )
- 4x Dual-arc Stellar Incinerator ( 1 FP, 1 FS )
- 4x Dual-arc Heavy Psi Cannon ( 2 FP, 2 FS )
- 1x Fore-arc Heavy Psi Cannon
- 12x Dual-arc AM Torpedo ( 6 FP, 6 FS )
- 1x ECM
- 2x Auxiliary Reactor
Siphon
Proposed layout:
- 1x Antimatter Jump Drive
- 4x PIE Drive
- 8x Organic Armor ( 3 F, 2 P, 2 S, 1 A )
- 1x Cloaking Device
- 1x AHR
- 2x Full-arc Disruptor
- 4x Dual-arc Disruptor ( 2 FP, 2 FS )
- 4x Dual-arc Assault Disruptor ( 3 FP, 3 FS )
- 4x Fore-arc Assault Disruptor
- 6x Dual-arc ELF Beam ( 3 FP, 3 FS )
- 2x Dual-arc Stellar Incinerator ( 1 FP, 1 FS )
- 8x Dual-arc AM Torpedo ( 4 FP, 4 FS )
- 1x ECM
- 1x Auxiliary Reactor
So the Siphon is more beam-heavy while the Mandible tends more towards mid-range, but still closer than, say, a Battle or Combat Dread. I'm just not sure if I want the Siphon to have that many ELFs and that few Torpedoes or not.
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Considering Siphon only has one Auxiliary Reactor and eight assault disruptors. I'd say they need the extra ELF beams.
The set up you have there looks fine to me.
[ This Message was edited by: Azure Prower on 2011-05-10 22:30 ]
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2011-05-10 23:38
Jim,
Can you calculate the effects of a full alpha strike on both Mandi and Siphon and let us know, at the current new config, which does more damage?
I'm leaning towards more torp damage, but the single aux reactor makes me think twice abt it.
Plus... why does the Siphon have only 2 SIs, while the Mandi have 3?
Edit: Plus...
I'm measuring the Siphon up vs the EAD.
15 PT vs 8 AM torps?
4 QSTs vs 2 SIs?
various CLs vs 'Ruptors?
Which one does more damage?
The Siph already has less armor than the EAD, it should have superior burst damage capabilities, as it did before the layout changes.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2011-05-10 23:47 ]
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2011-05-11 00:29
Quote:
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On 2011-05-10 21:10, Azure Prower wrote:
It's kind of the same with UGTO and ICC Battle and Combat Dread ships. Once they have access to the Assault ship. Rarely any one goes back to the lower ranked ships because they are inherently weaker.
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Battle and Combat Dreads are frequently used, they have long battle endurance, while the EAD/AD has lower endurance suited for quick engagements. Also, the AD and EAD lacked mid ranged firepower before the torp buff.
For prolonged sieges the BD/CD is a better choice than the EAD/AD.
However, stations have the longest endurance by far. Stations never run out of ammo, can repair significant damage over time, and has decent firepower at all ranges. The ICC SS is different in that it uses more missiles, giving it more long range punch.
The best way to kill a station is to do overwhelming short-term dps, however when stations are spammed their firepower becomes significant enough to drive off attackers before the stations go down. Then you try to outrange stations or pick them off when spammed.
EDIT:
@Kenny, the siphon has 3 more assault ruptors, and it appears they have near the same ammount of cls and ruptors. But, the siphon has elf beams which basically steals firepower from the EAD.
[ This Message was edited by: SpaceAdmiral on 2011-05-11 00:31 ]
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2011-05-11 00:43
I would trade some armor for more fire power on Siphon.
Siphon should do more dps than EAD as it is said before by devs in earlier version.
Elf beams sound great but in current situation, they are not really helpfull at all. Maybe when there are 6 siphons using all their beams on a target it could be devastating. Again, that wouldnt fit in hit&run right?
More dps less armor on siphon would be better. I suggest bring siphon armor to mandy level and buff or/and put more dps.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2011-05-11 01:01
Quote:
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On 2011-05-11 00:29, SpaceAdmiral wrote:
EDIT:
@Kenny, the siphon has 3 more assault ruptors, and it appears they have near the same ammount of cls and ruptors. But, the siphon has elf beams which basically steals firepower from the EAD.
[ This Message was edited by: SpaceAdmiral on 2011-05-11 00:31 ]
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The ELFs won't make a diff in terms of survivability.
I would rather reduce the ELFs and add in one more reactor, or additional SIs.
The Siphon is expected to do max damage in as little time as possible before it has to break off, either due to damage or low energy.
In its current incarnation, the EAD will have the most armor and the most firepower. It will outlast all other ships out there, regardless of faction or type. I tested it vs an AD and old Siphon config (before they update the Kluth)
The new Siph needs to deal out more DPS to remain competitive.
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2011-05-11 01:56
@devs,
Elf beam recharge time = 22 seconds .
Flux beam recharge time = 5 seconds.
assault ruptor recharge time is 8 seconds. A siphon can almost fire 4 times it's AD while elf beam is recharging and fuctional again. Having recharge time on Elf beam more than cloak makes this weapon useless.Elf beam can be fired only once after decloaking and before cloaking in 15 seconds. if elf beam is a must on siphon , it needs to be reworked. Between every cloak cycle Ead can fire on kluth 3 times with each flux beams.
my 2 cents.
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Jim Starluck
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 2232
From: Cincinnati, OH
| Posted: 2011-05-11 04:34
These versions of the Siphon and Mandible are now in Beta, and I'll look into adjusting the ELF Beam's cooldown.
Quote:
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Mandible
The Mandible is the lead Mantis class, a breed of K'luth warships of comparable size and power to human dreadnoughts. As is typical of K'luth designs it employs heavy beam and torpedo batteries to engage targets at close-range, but also carries mid-range weapons to soften its enemies up before striking the killing blow. The Mandible serves as the backbone of the K'luth Armada, and is often the most prominent heavy warship in their battle fleets.
Proposed layout:
- 1x Antimatter Jump Drive
- 4x PIE Drive
- 7x Organic Armor ( 2 F, 2 P, 2 S, 1 A )
- 1x Cloaking Device
- 1x AHR
- 2x Full-arc Disruptor
- 4x Dual-arc Disruptor ( 2 FP, 2 FS )
- 2x Dual-arc Assault Disruptor ( 1 FP, 1 FS )
- 4x Dual-arc Stellar Incinerator ( 1 FP, 1 FS )
- 4x Dual-arc Heavy Psi Cannon ( 2 FP, 2 FS )
- 1x Fore-arc Heavy Psi Cannon
- 12x Dual-arc AM Torpedo ( 6 FP, 6 FS )
- 1x ECM
- 2x Auxiliary Reactor
Siphon
The Siphon is a heavy Mantis variant with a reinforced hull. It is significantly more durable than the Mandible and carries a heavier armament as well. Where the Mandible employs a variety of weapons the Siphon relies on antimatter torpedoes and heavy assault disruptors to rip its targets apart. To help feed the titanic energy needs of these weapons it also carries several ELF Beams to drain energy directly from its target, crippling its ability to fight back or flee. A brutal predator of a warship, the Siphon often backs up Mandible strike forces.
Proposed layout:
- 1x Antimatter Jump Drive
- 4x PIE Drive
- 8x Organic Armor ( 3 F, 2 P, 2 S, 1 A )
- 1x Cloaking Device
- 1x AHR
- 2x Full-arc Disruptor
- 4x Dual-arc Disruptor ( 2 FP, 2 FS )
- 4x Dual-arc Assault Disruptor ( 3 FP, 3 FS )
- 4x Fore-arc Assault Disruptor
- 6x Dual-arc ELF Beam ( 3 FP, 3 FS )
- 2x Dual-arc Stellar Incinerator ( 1 FP, 1 FS )
- 8x Dual-arc AM Torpedo ( 4 FP, 4 FS )
- 1x ECM
- 1x Auxiliary Reactor
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2011-05-11 04:54
I still find it weird that the Mandible has more torps and SIs than the Siph, which is the assault dread.
Based on the description that the Siph depends on "Ruptors and Beams to rip its target apart".
Mandi - 4 SIs and 12 AM torps + 8 beams and 5 Heavy PSIs
Siph - 2 SIs and 8 AM torps + 14 beams
The added 2 SIs and 4 torps + 5 Heavy PSIs would appear to make the Mandi more powerful than the Siph.
Too many ELF beams. We need more weaps in place of the ELFs.
The Siph needs more torps and 1 or 2 more SIs in place of that many beams.
How about losing some ELFs for an aux gen, and beams for Torps and SIs?
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2011-05-11 05:26 ]
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