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A wild K'luth appears! |
Lonectzn
Fleet Admiral
Joined: January 06, 2005
Posts: 202
|  Posted: 2010-07-03 22:13
While I don't think K'luth are over-powered, I really do not agree with the suggestions that they are better organised than the other factions. That's just an illusion. K'luth players are actually mostly soloers. The cloak makes playing K'luth very forgiving - mistakes are more often not fatal, you get much more time to make decisions and pick your location.
Everyone ends up getting lazy and spread out, half the people aren't even in the right area. It's most evident when I'm on K'luth and the other side starts bringing out beacon ships. All of a sudden a whole lot of bugs pop and there's a few minutes of re-adjustment where people start playing cautiously and thinking again.
In short, K'luth players are exactly the same as any others, no better or worse. Just as lazy when things are easy, stick together just as much as others when it's not. The core problem, as I've said many times before, is that there's insufficient reward for playing eccm/beacon ships. However, the devs seem to be working on the smaller classes and I hope will address it.
I think we wait for that and see how things change.
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2010-07-03 22:30
A grouping system could help beacons/ew/dictor ships, but its complicated.
You have to balance the small ships getting a reward, the fact some cowards will leech pres, some people will "power rank" newbies for money (probably), how much pres deducted from guy earning the pres (to share with other group members), and where to classify pres
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Fatal Perihelion
Chief Marshal
Fatal Squadron
Joined: April 15, 2010
Posts: 308
| Posted: 2010-07-03 23:39
Now please dont flame the poor Thread opener *sneef*.
Obviously he feels about Kluth like most people do untill they learn how to deal with alien.
Also i dont know how mean Kluth are in MV...
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I remember when Kluth was the ultimate terror at the beginning, not knowing where they come from and where my hull goes^^
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Red October
Fleet Admiral
Joined: May 30, 2010
Posts: 165
From: Stillwater, Oklahoma
| Posted: 2010-07-04 01:11
One thing I notice, I always try to keep an backup point to jump away from the Kluth when they come in numbers. I be fighting one on one, already having an hard time keeping an lock the little bugger as he inches my health away while I have to blind fire at an 15 GU moving target that I can't even see...
At one time, I got sick of it and placed my ship under Kluth ship that was about to die and self-destruct myself. Chain reaction took out few other Kluths around... thanks to the ship being a Station.
But you do go to remember, for someone to pull out an Recon ship just to face off against a Kluth, that weapons our number strength while they don't hardly need a recon ship to begin with.
13 vs 13 Dreadnought battle. ICC dreadnoughts are having an hard time because the Kluth could move freely around the battlefield and position themselves to take their ships out one by one. We are forced to have one player revert to an Recon ship to atleast make one of their ships even more visible.
That brings down our man-power by alot and makes us have to focus on taking out strangler Kluth ships. What even makes it harder, their armor repairs while they could just hide right in the midst of battle. I have lost more when I giving out the same amount of damage to the Kluth? Reason being they are healing while being cloaked which is subtle but really takes an bite out of my ability to combat him.
Their armor may be paper thin, but combined with Cloaking and the drones healing automatically, yes I will never be able to take down an Kluth ship unless it is 2 sizes below me or that I am having backup.
For ICC to suddenly turn into an Hit and Run faction overnight, that is something that really bugs me. Not to mention, it seems that ICC suppose to be the Long Range Type ships that hit you before you get even close to them, but that is only based on missiles. Kluth nulify those missiles quite alot, matter of fact, bring an missile dread, crusier, or frigate to the battlefield is automatic death.
I would love to see some new type of weapons designed to face off against Kluth faction that help balance it. You don't even need to nerf the Kluth, just give us something that could easily help us defend ourselves against them.
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Saphirr
Fleet Admiral
Joined: October 02, 2004
Posts: 8
| Posted: 2010-07-04 02:12
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On 2010-07-04 01:11, Vice Admiral Alanstar wrote:
I would love to see some new type of weapons designed to face off against Kluth faction that help balance it. You don't even need to nerf the Kluth, just give us something that could easily help us defend ourselves against them.
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A ship with a dictor-like area of effect that can show Kluth on targeting systems would be nice. Doesn't even have to be far, like only 500 gu.
It would beat these pathetic beacons and tedious blind shooting any day.
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Necrotic
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: March 19, 2002
Posts: 378
| Posted: 2010-07-04 02:14
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On 2010-07-04 01:11, Vice Admiral Alanstar wrote:
One thing I notice, I always try to keep an backup point to jump away from the Kluth when they come in numbers. I be fighting one on one, already having an hard time keeping an lock the little bugger as he inches my health away while I have to blind fire at an 15 GU moving target that I can't even see...
At one time, I got sick of it and placed my ship under Kluth ship that was about to die and self-destruct myself. Chain reaction took out few other Kluths around... thanks to the ship being a Station.
But you do go to remember, for someone to pull out an Recon ship just to face off against a Kluth, that weapons our number strength while they don't hardly need a recon ship to begin with.
13 vs 13 Dreadnought battle. ICC dreadnoughts are having an hard time because the Kluth could move freely around the battlefield and position themselves to take their ships out one by one. We are forced to have one player revert to an Recon ship to atleast make one of their ships even more visible.
That brings down our man-power by alot and makes us have to focus on taking out strangler Kluth ships. What even makes it harder, their armor repairs while they could just hide right in the midst of battle. I have lost more when I giving out the same amount of damage to the Kluth? Reason being they are healing while being cloaked which is subtle but really takes an bite out of my ability to combat him.
Their armor may be paper thin, but combined with Cloaking and the drones healing automatically, yes I will never be able to take down an Kluth ship unless it is 2 sizes below me or that I am having backup.
For ICC to suddenly turn into an Hit and Run faction overnight, that is something that really bugs me. Not to mention, it seems that ICC suppose to be the Long Range Type ships that hit you before you get even close to them, but that is only based on missiles. Kluth nulify those missiles quite alot, matter of fact, bring an missile dread, crusier, or frigate to the battlefield is automatic death.
I would love to see some new type of weapons designed to face off against Kluth faction that help balance it. You don't even need to nerf the Kluth, just give us something that could easily help us defend ourselves against them.
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you know im glad your not a strategist in the navy. i wonder what they would say if they were fighting a sub. would one of the admirals say" sorry mr president we cant shoot our missles into the water becuse we cant see them." Do you people actually listen to yourselfs? Is the whole idea of submarine warfare so far from your way of thinking in a tactical sense that the idea doesnt even make sense to you?
How about we just remove all the factions and just make it so its a ffa with everyone being ugto. We of course dont want you to strain yourselfs figuring out how to kill your enemy we are gonna change the whole command lay out to just one button. All you have to do is press the button and the game will play for you. No worries you cant die nor can anyoen else. We are just gonna sit here and shoot at each other becuse some people cant figure out how to use tactics in a multiplayer game. (woot Sarcasm is fun)
It amazes me how nieve some people still are its like you have never played a multiplayer game before.Lets break it down there are 2 kinds of people in this world people who complain about whats wrong and the people who overcome it. ICC have said they are weak and underpowered yet we have proven this to be false. Everyone says the other factions are op. If icc and kluth switched places you would be complaining how op icc is
its the same thing we been hearing forever.
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No matter how hard they have tried. They havnt figured out how to nerf skill yet :P
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Saphirr
Fleet Admiral
Joined: October 02, 2004
Posts: 8
| Posted: 2010-07-04 02:18
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On 2010-07-04 02:14, Necrotic wrote:
just make it so its a ffa
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[...with every one selecting the ship of any faction they like.]
That actually sounds like fun and you don't have to deal with faction fanboism.
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Wild Cat
Fleet Admiral
Joined: August 28, 2004
Posts: 109
From: The Netherlands
| Posted: 2010-07-04 04:21
Its kind of funny reading this post,
Bringing a ship packed with ECCM to support the hunt is plain stupid.
K'luth will home in on you, because you, that tiny support vessel is the greatest threat to there defense.
I've brought sensor scout or frigates packed with ECCM to last no longer then a few minutes before getting blown to pieces by multiple K'luth vessels.
This has happened in small scale battles with with 3 allies + my self in a vessel packed with ECCM and in the large scale battles where I've counter more allies then enemy vessels, yet still I felt like I became prime target number one, onces I showed up and started broad casting all the ECCM.
Would I play K'luth, I know I would have done the same. Hunt down the biggest threat first, kill the ECCM vessel, screwing up my cloaking system.
There is little to no reward to be gained by flying support role ships like ECCM or interdictor ships. There is only prestige to be lost.
I really hope this grouping system will show up soon, for then it will make those ships more useful and worth flying in.
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Wild Cat
Dutch Time
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ADmiraLMaXimus (Bringer of Doom)
Chief Marshal
Praetorian Wolves
Joined: March 09, 2002
Posts: 363
From: Earth
| Posted: 2010-07-04 04:55
I keep hearing how OP the krill is, but arent kluth supposed to have more powerfull wepons anyway?
Doesnt UGTO have stronger armor, which might I add, repairs just as fast as other factions weaker armor. Would that not be considered OP as well?
Doesnt ICC have the ability to rotate shields, which give them the ability to maintain their forward facing and mojority of their wepons trained on target. is that not OP as well?
I have played all factions in my years here and I know most of what it takes to be effective in combat against kluth. Above all other things, I have noticed one thing that vetran players take advantage of that new players do not.....
That is that human faction beam weps are far more effective than kluth beam weps at point blank range
Also if your really on us and hit us with torps and core weps..... the splash damage will rip us up as well, all the while our beam weps are just as effective at a distance as they are up close so you cant lose if you come face to face.
Of course thats based on 1v1 combat or at least just hitting 1 target at a time.
like it was stated before numbers always win the game......
And when numbers are what it takes to win the game then obviously the game is balanced as it is. If it was not balanced then a faction with lower numbers would prevail in combat.... and that is really hard to impossible to do.
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Sauur
Chief Marshal
Praetorian Wolves
Joined: November 30, 2004
Posts: 475
| Posted: 2010-07-04 05:11
I was just using my alt account on UGTO - 2 UGTO dreads handed 6 K'luth their butts.
The K'luth followed the book attacking simultaneously - but the 2 dreads held wing which not one of the luth did. Don't get me wrong - the luth were obviously calling targets - they just weren't backing one another.
The K'luth lost purely due to lack of cohesion. 6 different K'luth players flying the same ships on another day = very different result!
K'luth = OP'd - I don't think so - cheers for the prestige!
This game is as close to balanced across the factions as I have ever seen it - great work devs.
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Code Red
Chief Marshal
Non Omnis Moriar
Joined: September 08, 2007
Posts: 184
| Posted: 2010-07-04 06:00
I agree with Sauur , the game is well balanced at the moment , the only thing that can swing the balance is a large number avantage , which any player who has been around a while will tell you will swing from one faction to another over a day , week or a month. No faction is op , there are ways to beat all factions.
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*Flash*
Chief Marshal
Joined: April 19, 2009
Posts: 291
From: Semi retired after 1.67 !
| Posted: 2010-07-04 06:16
ok i havent read all the comments and replys just what azure said. i have to say that all 3 factions are well balanced and if ure smart and good u can kill Kluth very easy even with the stealth module. Try to play more in MV where are all the best players and ull see that kluth is not OP. Im always saying thatt scenario is for new ppl to get badges and learn basics of the game.
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Novacat
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache
| Posted: 2010-07-04 07:09
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On 2010-07-03 05:56, Kenny_Naboo wrote:
of course we can. Cos ppl like you just don't have the ability to adapt beyond dread spacebar mashing.
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The ironic thing is that dread spacebar mashing is all you do as Kluth. Kluth have very few reasons to fly anything other than dreads, their ships fix themselves, so they do not need supplies, they do not need ECM/ECCM ships at all, so they never have any reason to fly smaller ships, even the infamous missile frig swarms are mostly useless since cloak hard-counters missiles and fighters.
So while ICC/UGTO are forced to have a massive combined-arms fleet of scouts, dreads, supply ships, and interdictors, Kluth can pretty much lolspam Dreads all day with no penalties. From what I gathered, UGTO makes up for this by being simply better at close-range combat than Kluth, which is why UGTO are successful at fighting Kluth. However, ICC are not so successful, as their close-range capabilities tend to be lacking, and their long-range ability (which is their specialty) is completely useless against Kluth. Given, this could have changed with the addition of Defense Mode.
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So what's the gripe?
SBs and a couple of sens plats and scouts at your key planets will give us a hard time.
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So you have to planethug in order to stand a chance? That is not much of a solution.
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Skill is one thing. Tactics n teamwork outweighs skill.
If u lack the simple ability to be a teamplayer in fleet skirmishes, then you're doomed to lose the engagement for your side.
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Kluth players always talk about the tactics and strategies they use, but when I read this:
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Haha i knew this was gonna happen like in sag yesterday us 13 lutrh dreads uncloak on a station and POP
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That is not tactics, that is not strategy, thats just simple gangbanging with dreadspam that requires hardly any thinking at all. ICC and UGTO are expected to have dictors flying around looking pretty, scouts and other ships constantly playing that magical pinging keyboard, making calculations and firing at the blank, and generally using all sorts of highly micro-intensive tasks while Kluth strategy amounts to:
Surround Ship
Alpha Ship
Win
Cloak
Repeat
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When I see scouts about, I get out of my dread and pull my Scarab immediately. Dreads aren't the end all of the game.
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Too bad it is all I ever see Kluth fly in a real engagement. Dreads and Scarabs.
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You may pick any kluth ship. I get a ugto scout and a combat escort. You will die every time. I will prove it any time you want, any day.
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So other factions have to outnumber Kluth 2:1 in order to win? Not a very good argument, Azreal.
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mannythepogs
Grand Admiral
Pitch Black
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 140
From: mbllanes
| Posted: 2010-07-04 07:35
Sometimes it really depends on the player you are facing;
Two Dread piloted by Two veteran flying in Wings is different from Two New Players piloting the same ships.
I remember im flying wings with another Siphon before, following two ICC AD Dreads, we are following them and waiting for 30mins. to make a mistake, but no, the two never separated, we tried to attack but we are simply no match as they also calling target, we might get one of them at a cost of 2 ships to us.
But if that is new players flying that ships, most probably both will die with 2 of us either cloaking or jumping out.
Just food for thoughts...
[ This Message was edited by: mannythepogs on 2010-07-04 07:37 ]
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-07-04 07:49
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On 2010-07-04 07:09, Leopard wrote:
The ironic thing is that dread spacebar mashing is all you do as Kluth. Kluth have very few reasons to fly anything other than dreads, their ships fix themselves, so they do not need supplies, they do not need ECM/ECCM ships at all, so they never have any reason to fly smaller ships, even the infamous missile frig swarms are mostly useless since cloak hard-counters missiles and fighters.
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Again, false assumptions.
'Ruptors have massive drain. I only ever alpha to finish off a target in his last 20% of hull. Prior to that, I don't ever do that. It's either SI/PSI or beams. And if you're really close, AM torps.
So, no to Alphas.  .... unless you're about to pop. Then I'll go all out to finish you off.
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That is not tactics, that is not strategy, thats just simple gangbanging with dreadspam that requires hardly any thinking at all. ICC and UGTO are expected to have dictors flying around looking pretty, scouts and other ships constantly playing that magical pinging keyboard, making calculations and firing at the blank, and generally using all sorts of highly micro-intensive tasks while Kluth strategy amounts to:
Surround Ship
Alpha Ship
Win
Cloak
Repeat
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Guess what. When you have 15 dreads on any side vs 5 enemies, you don't need strategy. Applies to all factions. That is called a gankfest. A bonus run.
Doesn't happen all the time though.
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Too bad it is all I ever see Kluth fly in a real engagement. Dreads and Scarabs.
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The fact that almost all K'luth dessies and cruisers are next to useless, yes I would say that's quite fitting.
The Scarab (and to a lesser extent, Scale) are the only 2 cruisers worth fielding in K'luth by virtue of the damage they can do. Period.
Ultimately, sure. You want K'luth to give up their cloak? Fine.
Swap our cloak for UGTO armor. We retain our weapons. See who cries again.
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