| Author |
Latest Update - Questions |
Jar Jar Binks
Grand Admiral
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 556
|  Posted: 2010-08-26 14:59
Quote:
|
On 2010-08-24 18:53, BackSlash wrote:
I have yet to go into beta and really try this change out due to work and time limitations. However, if it seems too harsh (of which the 10 seconds was not), I will revert it back to 10 seconds, or further refine it.
|
|
TL;DR version: ECCM should hasten uncloak but slow down recloak, ECM should only hasten recloak.
if you actually want to see some arguments about why, read on.
i don't have that much problem with the cooldown itself, but i'm sure you remember me saying something about overdoing it right? besides, it's not like it actually change anything of the original imbalance.
one could argue about the untouched ECCM effects on the cloak, is it really needed to slow down recloak now when you have a cooldown on it?
a half decent sized fleet that runs ECCM (not pinging) can make a dread take 8 - 10 seconds to decloak, and then another 15 before they can recloak, and then another 5 - 10 seconds before they HAVE cloaked, that's 35 seconds, more then enough time for a EAD or a AD to make minced meat of a K'luth dread. not much hit and run left there eh?
so either remove the ECCM effects on decloak OR recloak, personally i'd see it removed on decloak as at the moment it makes no logical sense what so ever to have to wait that long before the weapons work. it made sense before this change from a balance standpoint, but not now.
so imo remove the "cooldown" on k'luth weapons when they decloak in ECCM fields but keep the increased recloaking.
infact, make decloaking FASTER while in ECCM fields as that should by all logical standards help k'luth come out of cloak faster, while ECM should only have an impact on recloak time. and no, not actually lowering the cloak cooldown, just the speed of which it takes to cloak when you press V.
_________________
|
MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2010-08-26 15:23
[quote]
On 2010-08-26 13:55, Sauur wrote:
Quote:
|
This version is as close to balanced as I have seen this game over the last eight years (yes I had an older account).
I doubt without luth in the mix to keep things random this game would actually exist - would not have been around for so many years.
You want to play a pure 1v1 balanced game - go play chess, though you will still likely argue over who gets to move first.
I played 'luth through 483 and I won more than I lost, the faction was considered broken (Hell you could one shot a siphon for a kill if you knew what to do) - yet i achieved an 11 :1 kill ratio care of the Siphon and I am very proud of that. Yet that kill ratio was handed to me care of Smartin - a guy who abused my loyalty to a fault through impecible teamwork.
You all seem to want your victories handed to you via game mechanics - the balance should not alter from here on in +/- a few 0.1's of a percentile.
Ya'll need to start thinking outside the square! I reckon the developers have done well by all factions! ( There is certainly not a faction that is as underpowered as 'luth 483 )
Anyway - that;s just my opinion.
|
|
Just FYI, I don't want Kluth removed. I just know it's the only way to stop the whining. So long as Kluth exist with cloak, whining will exist.
483 made me run away from this game screaming. I was gone for like 2 years because of that version. Kluth 483 were terrible, and that version as a whole had some very serious problems that 1.5 mostly fixed even if it introduced it's own problems (bombing desync comes to mind).
I too agree this game is about as balanced as we can expect, because nobody will ever think it's perfectly balanced and it's futile to attempt it. There are other things that need working on, like the planet system overhaul or changing how supply drones work when their target is under fire. But simply trying to appease part of the playerbase at the expense of another part of the playerbase is unacceptable, especially when considering it's already been said numerous times that Kluth are balanced now and are finally at the point they should be. Those aren't my words, but the words of the devs.
You can't just go back on that and start claiming things about balance now that you denied then and expect people to stick around for it.
The actual cloak change in beta is minor. It affects smaller ships more than it should, but it doesn't affect large ships that much. The bigger problem is waiting for sig to rise before being able to fire. The cloak change is the result of a larger problem, which is nonstop whining and quite frankly certain people who've forgotten what they've said in the past.
The change itself I'm fine with. It's not drastic enough to affect things, but that just means human players won't like it because it doesn't go far enough (you watch, my prediction will come true). And considering it used to be said that Kluth are balanced now, why the change? That's the problem. Where does it end? Is this the only change, or the first of many to come in a futile attempt at balance that was already achieved; or to be more blunt, an attempt at appeasing the whiners?
_________________
|
Nuds
Fleet Admiral
Joined: July 30, 2004
Posts: 19
From: NOM
| Posted: 2010-08-27 04:59
Not to point fingers or alienate anyone, but it seems like the main portion of the party...unhappy with Luth and cloaks have a join date of 2010.
Most of the vets playing since beta would have had time to adapt and master the game mechanics.
The reason why I see so many topics on the balance of the game, especially on Luth and cloaking may be due to the influx of new players, namely after DS went F2P. These new players will be pitted against the vets in big ships, who are extremely experienced and know every trick in the book. Naturally, they won't stand a chance and as a result of that, think that something is unbalanced/should be nerfed.
All I can say is, give the current system a chance, it has it's faults but it's pretty much as balanced as it has ever been in a while.
_________________
.
|
Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-08-27 05:28
Not every new joiner is a whiner, and not every vet isn't whining.
... apparently...
But what Sparkle say is true. You give the whiners a bone today by adding a cooldown, they'll play it for awhile, then whine again when Kluths adapt to it.
You then extend that timer, and they're quiet for awhile until Kluth players adapt again, and then they whine again.
And they'll continue whining until cloak becomes useless. And if you remove Cloak, and come up with a cover story that organic armor (like Species 8472) is ultra strong, they'll then whine over that instead.
_________________
... in space, no one can hear you scream.....
|
Sauur
Chief Marshal
Praetorian Wolves
Joined: November 30, 2004
Posts: 475
| Posted: 2010-08-27 07:07
Quote:
|
Just FYI, I don't want Kluth removed. I just know it's the only way to stop the whining. So long as Kluth exist with cloak, whining will exist.
|
|
Sorry brother my last comment was not directed at you - your comment on balance just tweaked me to respond.
_________________
 [IMG]
|
Marius Falix
Grand Admiral
Joined: July 05, 2010
Posts: 268
From: Luyten
| Posted: 2010-08-27 07:45
Quote:
|
On 2010-08-27 05:28, Kenny_Naboo wrote:
Not every new joiner is a whiner, and not every vet isn't whining.
... apparently...
But what Sparkle say is true. You give the whiners a bone today by adding a cooldown, they'll play it for awhile, then whine again when Kluths adapt to it.
|
|
first the cooldown is not even effective, it takes that long to even alpha once or twice and only a moron will decloak with say 30 hull to fire an alpha and those are the only people who would be affected by it. those who want to fire a quick alpha then cloak, move around wait till the enemy has lost intrest or is firing the completely wrong way and attack again.
as for "Adapting" its about timing, which is something luth has long since bragged as being a skill. plz dont try big urselves up by saying you adapted as its about not being a moron.
this whole convo is luth players asking for ECCM to stop screwing with them (or make them even faster) which again is retarded for the fact that cooldown was introduced to balance out Luth.
and what your suggesting is not worth the cooldown what so ever.
if devs are thinking of screwing with ECCM plz just scrap the cooldown.
_________________
“We give our lives for the lives of Humanity. May you all see better days.”
We are the Falix Brothers...
|
Bardiche
Chief Marshal
Joined: November 16, 2006
Posts: 1247
| Posted: 2010-08-27 09:33
Hey, I'm fine with the cooldown. Just not with the "ECCM does NOTHING to uncloak!" 'fix' to be introduced. :V
_________________
|
MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2010-08-27 13:44
I've been fine with ECCM affecting cloak times. I always thought it was either intentional or a positive side effect (like pinging). I've learned to play with it as has every other Kluth. Like Jar Jar said, it doesn't make sense that ECCM would make it take longer to decloak but it's OK because the effect is good for the game and makes ECM useful.
(it's effect on bombing is a problem however. Kluth needing ECCM on their planets to defend vs bombing also makes their ships more vulnerable which is contradictory)
This whole convo is not at all about Kluth players asking for ECCM to stop screwing with them. I personally don't want anything changed, not timers, not ECCM, not anything. It is fine the way it is, and the only "solutions" that will quiet the whiners will prove to be solutions that are too harsh to Kluth. They are looking for significant nerfs to fix perceived problems that even the devs themselves used to say don't exist.
It comes down to this: The whiners don't like fighting vs cloak. They will whine so long as cloak exists as a useful Kluth device. The only way they'll be satisfied is if they get enough tools or nerfs to make cloak effectively useless in any combat situation, so that fighting Kluth feels closer to fighting the other human faction.
_________________
|
MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2010-08-27 13:51
Btw,
Quote:
|
On 2010-08-26 15:23, MrSparkle wrote:
The change itself I'm fine with. It's not drastic enough to affect things, but that just means human players won't like it because it doesn't go far enough (you watch, my prediction will come true).
|
|
Quote:
|
On 2010-08-27 07:45, Marius Falix wrote:
first the cooldown is not even effective, it takes that long to even alpha once or twice and only a moron will decloak with say 30 hull to fire an alpha and those are the only people who would be affected by it. those who want to fire a quick alpha then cloak, move around wait till the enemy has lost intrest or is firing the completely wrong way and attack again.
|
|
Took less than 24 hours for that prediction to come true. It's not hard to predict the course of these things. I think we all see what's really going on, those of us who aren't in denial of our motives that is.
[ This Message was edited by: MrSparkle on 2010-08-27 13:52 ]
_________________
|
Marius Falix
Grand Admiral
Joined: July 05, 2010
Posts: 268
From: Luyten
| Posted: 2010-08-27 17:33
Quote:
|
On 2010-08-27 13:51, MrSparkle wrote:
Took less than 24 hours for that prediction to come true. It's not hard to predict the course of these things. I think we all see what's really going on, those of us who aren't in denial of our motives that is.
|
|
i dont understand sorry, it might be my tired state but could you please explain.
_________________
“We give our lives for the lives of Humanity. May you all see better days.”
We are the Falix Brothers...
|
MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2010-08-27 17:41
As a human player you don't think the change to cloak cooldown is enough, right? You want more so it has a significant effect. On the opposite end, Kluth players will not like more. Some already think this current change has gone too far, others like me are OK with it but fear what might happen in the future.
And in general, those who keep whining for nerfs to Kluth cloak (not saying you) will claim it's for "balance" reasons but it's really because they don't like playing against it. That's the real motive behind it. They want Kluth nerfed so that their experience with their chosen faction is a more enjoyable one, not because of some "balance" reason.
_________________
|
Necrotic
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: March 19, 2002
Posts: 378
| Posted: 2010-08-27 18:08
sparkle is right people whine and complain about balance when they themselves are weak and need their enemy nerfed to the point they are at their lvl. Its generally to cover up themselves being noobs. Perfect example icc complain alot about kluth cloak but ugto dont is it becuse either A) ugto is simply better then icc or B) ugto doesnt find the need to complain about it. Either way it shows the devs have fallen to listening to the whiners and if you complain enough you might get your wish in this game. I only wish the staff would finaly give us the ability to ignore /yell
_________________
No matter how hard they have tried. They havnt figured out how to nerf skill yet :P
|
Marius Falix
Grand Admiral
Joined: July 05, 2010
Posts: 268
From: Luyten
| Posted: 2010-08-27 18:11
Quote:
|
On 2010-08-27 17:41, MrSparkle wrote:
As a human player you don't think the change to cloak cooldown is enough, right? You want more so it has a significant effect. On the opposite end, Kluth players will not like more. Some already think this current change has gone too far, others like me are OK with it but fear what might happen in the future.
And in general, those who keep whining for nerfs to Kluth cloak (not saying you) will claim it's for "balance" reasons but it's really because they don't like playing against it. That's the real motive behind it. They want Kluth nerfed so that their experience with their chosen faction is a more enjoyable one, not because of some "balance" reason.
|
|
understandable however i have played luth(with raven) and understand that to a luth player it feels Cloak itself shouldnt be nurfed.
i agree to this.
we need a way to counter it.
not some BS that lasts half a second.
and id prefer that cloak ECCM screw up... its nice and means while they incinerate my ship within a cluster they may get hurt enough to be killed if someone jumped them. (quickly as AHR is crazy fast xD )
but again back on topic.
to a luth player cloak is fine.
to a human player, luth is OP.
number of reasons, one major one is we dont see you at 40% hull after 10 seconds because your allready gone.(cloaked)
we see you at full and usually only ever do, or atleast with full armour.
anyway, (curse my ADD) back on topic
Pinging is one of the worst counters i have ever experienced. remember this was originally a bug. if it was 5 seconds long itd make fighting luth very tolerable. but thats not gonna happen.
adding more Anti cloak would be an ideal solution so a clever/skilled luth pilot can avoid detection. or they will be forced to fly smaller or more manuev ships to avoid beacons or some other anti luth wep that has yet to be seen.
_________________
“We give our lives for the lives of Humanity. May you all see better days.”
We are the Falix Brothers...
|
Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2010-08-27 19:22
Just to throw my 2 cents in, I usually just go with whatever changes are made and see how it turns out. The cooldown seems like a good idea, but at the same time removing ECCM effect on decloak tips the balance from what most people agreed was fine, it seems like it'd be better to leave things how they are now. But again, that's what beta is for, to see how new changes work.
On a personal note, yeah, I've said it before that it's annoying to fight Kluth because you need multiple different ship types to counter them, most of which are weak in terms of firepower and defense, while they can fly whatever they darn well please, and if you're geared up for fighting UGTO/ICC and luth show up then you're screwed because you likely don't have any EW Scouts/Frigates around. But stuff happens, either several people switch ships or everyone dies or retreats.
Further on a personal note, I don't think a lot of people realize just what goes into flying an EW ship. You either leave your ECCM on to keep sig high and hope you don't get ganked because you're not pinging to see where they're lurking, in which case you have a very short amount of time to react when something does uncloak in your face before it fires. If you're pinging you have to multitask like a mofo, you have to make sure you're at a sufficient distance from your own fleet to give good perimeter coverage while also keeping tabs on just where those split second red diamonds are appearing so you don't get too close and make yourself an easy target, and also keep tabs on where your allies are so you don't get in between them and the area of space they're manually firing at. FF sucks, especially when it's a salvo of ions.
Add to that both of the dedicated EW ship types are pretty well guaranteed to die to one alpha from any of the luth DNs, which is pretty much all that's used. If you miss seeing even one nearby ship while on ping duty you're probably going to die because of it.
I've found Beacons to be very underwhelming. They move slow, track even slower, have low ammo, short duration, and require you to get practically ontop of something to use them effectively. Infact, about the only things they ARE useful against are DNs. Try hitting something Destroyer sized or smaller with a beacon, or even a Cruiser flown by a competant pilot, and that's if your target isn't cloaked.....if it is then good luck even keeping track of it let alone landing one on it. Obviously I was not around when the 3 beacons per target limit was introduced so I don't know what was behind that decision, so I can't help wondering why it was introduced.
_________________
Adapt or die.
|
Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-08-27 20:10
Quote:
|
On 2010-08-27 19:22, Talien wrote:
I've found Beacons to be very underwhelming. They move slow, track even slower, have low ammo, short duration, and require you to get practically ontop of something to use them effectively. Infact, about the only things they ARE useful against are DNs. Try hitting something Destroyer sized or smaller with a beacon, or even a Cruiser flown by a competant pilot, and that's if your target isn't cloaked.....if it is then good luck even keeping track of it let alone landing one on it. Obviously I was not around when the 3 beacons per target limit was introduced so I don't know what was behind that decision, so I can't help wondering why it was introduced.
|
|
But that's it isn't it? Only Kluth DNs are really threats. Anything below that is not even dangerous. When have you seen a Kluth destroyer actually take out an equivalent or larger human ship singlehandedly or easily?
The threats are the DNs. That's what your beacons are for. And they DO work well against the DNs. Don't waste it on the smaller ships. They're not worth it.
_________________
... in space, no one can hear you scream.....
|
English
Deutsch
Nederlands
)
