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Latest Update - Questions |
-Daedalus-
Grand Admiral
Joined: September 26, 2006
Posts: 549
|  Posted: 2010-08-25 10:02
I think being able to fire right after decloak but having recloak time based on the cooldown and the amount of ECCM in the area is a balance most people can live with.
Me it doesn't matter I already deleted my kluth ships and went back to ICC as did a lot of people noticed last night.
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2010-08-25 10:19
When i first read the dev log about cloak timer I was thinking something around 60 seconds for dreads tho. 60 seconds for me , well perfect time to decloak fire,fire,fire and get the hell out of there. Then I realized it is 10 seconds. Ironicly , I fired my krill assault ruptors and it took around nice 6 seconds to finish beam visualization on my screen. Basicly it is only 4 seconds to cloak again.
Then i checked 15 seconds on small ships. It seems a bit high for fast phased combat ships and I still think 15 seconds for dreads is a joke.
2 cents-
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-08-25 10:50
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On 2010-08-25 10:01, BackSlash wrote:
As far as I was aware, you should be able to attack exactly 1 second after decloaking (regardless of ship-size). This was done mostly due to sync reasons but I can look into lowering it to 0.5 seconds if you'd like?
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Erm Jack, if I'm not wrong.... (correct me if I am).... if the area is ECCM spammed, you have to wait till the sig hits the so-called uncloaked norm before you can fire your first shot.
ergo, if your default sig is 12, then your sig has to run from 0 to 12 before you can shoot.... But if there is a massive ECCM presence that makes your uncloaked sig 60... then it has to run to 60 before you can fire.
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Bardiche
Chief Marshal
Joined: November 16, 2006
Posts: 1247
| Posted: 2010-08-25 11:02
Just checked it in Beta, and it is true. Jack said he'd try to fix it, though, so cheers, I assume you'll get your bloody ECCM invulnerability. :(
Edit: All in good fun, though. We'll just have to take solace that you can't disengage uncloak within 15 seconds if you change your mind and want to jump instead! :D!
[ This Message was edited by: Bardiche on 2010-08-25 11:06 ]
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0mni
Grand Admiral
Joined: March 09, 2004
Posts: 288
From: Canada, Lived around the world.
| Posted: 2010-08-25 15:45
I made a post about this but when I left the MV, I lost it as I hadn't posted it yet ....
Anyway quck recap cause I am not making another long one.
You have convinced me that we need a cloak timer, but I believe the cloak timer should really be restricted to combat ships, I mean that is the main reason why you wanted one. So that means non-combat ships like transports/extractors/engineers/workers should not have a severe or high cloak timer, it could almost even be instant.
Secondly, if you could Backslash, can you reduce the fireing delay to 0.5 seconds after decloaking, I think that would make it seem close to negliagable delay that ppl wouldn't take so much notice to it.
EDIT: Appears that this was a bug, so it should be more affectice once it gets changed, hopefully soon.
Thirdly the ECCM pinging is too effective. With ECCM pinging its possible to prevent a ship from decloaking completely. In the description of some of the ships it even says that the k'luth are meant to cloak if the enemy gets behind them to reposition. Currently anyone with ECCM can just lay waste to a k'luth ship trying to cloak, and since we have the kool down timer, we can't decloak again for another 10 seconds, so we are really screwed. There should be a maximum time frame that it should take for any ship to cloak. If it takes, for instance, any longer than 30 seconds to reduce sig to 0, than the ship should automatically be cloaked and undetecable. This 30 seconds can be increased for bigger/larger ships. This would still give the need for ECM to counter the effects or reduce the time to try and cloak.
Also while cloaked ships should be 100% undetectable, regardless of pinging. It is pointless to be moving into a sneak position if u can be detected just by turning ECCM on and off.
Lastly, if you do not agree to removing ECCM pinging, than you need to remove the stupid rings around ECM. Whats the point of being cloaked and having to turn on ECM if they can still see the rings eminateing from your ship.
[ This Message was edited by: Omni on 2010-08-25 15:49 ]
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2010-08-25 15:53
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On 2010-08-25 10:01, BackSlash wrote:
As far as I was aware, you should be able to attack exactly 1 second after decloaking (regardless of ship-size). This was done mostly due to sync reasons but I can look into lowering it to 0.5 seconds if you'd like?
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But decloaking itself takes a long time for stations and dreads under ECCM, and almost no time for scouts. You have to wait until your sig rises from 0 to whatever it's supposed to be. For stations it can be painfully slow.
It's been like that for ages.
Quote:
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On 2010-08-25 11:02, Bardiche wrote:
Just checked it in Beta, and it is true. Jack said he'd try to fix it, though, so cheers, I assume you'll get your bloody ECCM invulnerability. 
Edit: All in good fun, though. We'll just have to take solace that you can't disengage uncloak within 15 seconds if you change your mind and want to jump instead!  !
[ This Message was edited by: Bardiche on 2010-08-25 11:06 ]
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So is this actually a bug? Kluth aren't supposed to have to wait for their sig to rise after decloaking before they can fire? Like I said it's been like that for ages and I just assumed it was intended.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2010-08-25 16:38
Myself and Tael agreed a long, long time ago that a decloak time of 1 second was goin to be used across the board, and that a cloak timer would be used. It seems that somewhere along the line, this was changed, although I'm not sure where or when.
Regardless, I've already tried to resolve the issue (next build to beta should fix it). Although it's using some funky ol' math, so you may find it takes 90 years to decloak.
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Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
| Posted: 2010-08-25 18:47
Quote:
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On 2010-08-25 16:38, BackSlash wrote:
Myself and Tael agreed |
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Hi, from the rest of the dev team.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2010-08-25 19:55
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On 2010-08-25 18:47, Shigernafy wrote:
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On 2010-08-25 16:38, BackSlash wrote:
Myself and Tael agreed |
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Hi, from the rest of the dev team.
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Talking about way back, like 2-3 years ago, when Tael first made changes to the cloak.
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Botji
Fleet Admiral
Joined: June 27, 2010
Posts: 17
| Posted: 2010-08-25 20:10
-------------------------------------------------------
Wall of text incoming, prepare for impact!!
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Tada, cloak finally gets a well deserved "nerf" but then immediately gets boosted to even higher levels than before. I would prefere to fight luth that can cloak without a cooldown if it will keep them from decloaking wherever they please with no delay to weapons.
Im really happy that cloaking finally gets looked at but whats the point of making it even better than before??
Seriously the luth arent unbalanced because they can cloak as often as they want, no cooldown was just topping it off. Cloak is unbalanced because there is no reasonable counter for it and almost no drawbacks, and now there are even less drawbacks.
Before anyone even starts with "just ECCM ping" NO thats.....if i didnt know that swearing and such is really frowned upon here there would be about as much swearing instead of this text.....insane to put that demand on players and the whole team just to be able to get short 0.5 sec pings of red targets flying around, most of the time you dont even have time to select a target before the ping is over.
There is no such thing as "just ECCM ping" Pinging requires one or more players to fly a ship thats pretty much worthless except for the ECCM it has, micro that ship like a pro to get as much out of the 4-5 ECCM slots as possible a good constant ping during cooldowns so there are no long durations with no pings. Do this constantly, no break or risk luth sneaking up on you or the fleet. Even if you find luths with this any sort of success depends on your team taking advantage of the very short 0.5 sec targets that pop ups and/or blindly fireing, hopefully hitting something.
There is no comparison to the effort you have to put in to "just ECCM ping" and anything else in the entire game, its the hardest most demanding task possible and there is no reward at all, even the reward of knowing that you are helping the team is made.. sour? because you know that for all that work all you gave your team were targets every now and then that lasted for 0.5 sec.
This is what ECCM ping is, something luth players seem to think is way to good and in need of a nerf and we dont need any other way to detect them. Fine, i can agree to that if luth are forced to do the same if they want to be cloaked.
Give all luth ships 4 cloaking devices, each with a cooldown of 90 sec and a maximum of 25 sec cloak to each device, make them have to use one, wait less than 25 sec(any more and they decloak) and use another, then another and another, dont forget to turn them off either to start the cooldown. If done correctly they can easily "just cloak" by juggling these 4 devices with plenty of time to spare between cycles, kinda like how UGTO and ICC "just ECCM ping" because it actually is very easy to do and should be nerfed even more to make it harder but dont forget to do the same with the cloak(yes, very sarcastic here).
Really, if this was done luth teams would implode and the forums would explode with the whine, how unreasonable and unfair it would be that cloak demands so much, yet this is what any non luth gets told when complaining about their cloak, "just ECCM ping" like its the most simple thing in the world and some even wish to make it even harder. Balance please?
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2010-08-25 21:08
- When in follow/shadow and your target jumps, the code will now check if your jump is clear of obstruction before jumping.
does this mean that my fleet may now safely put me on follow?
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NoBoDx
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 14, 2003
Posts: 784
From: Germany / NRW
| Posted: 2010-08-26 02:51
Quote:
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On 2010-08-25 20:10, Botji wrote:
There is no such thing as "just ECCM ping" Pinging requires one or more players to fly a ship thats pretty much worthless except for the ECCM it has, micro that ship like a pro to get as much out of the 4-5 ECCM slots as possible a good constant ping during cooldowns so there are no long durations with no pings.
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nearly every combat-ship have at least 1 sensor-slot, capable to equip a eccm-device which can be used to ping
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-08-26 03:02
Quote:
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On 2010-08-25 16:38, BackSlash wrote:
Myself and Tael agreed a long, long time ago that a decloak time of 1 second was goin to be used across the board, and that a cloak timer would be used. It seems that somewhere along the line, this was changed, although I'm not sure where or when.
Regardless, I've already tried to resolve the issue (next build to beta should fix it). Although it's using some funky ol' math, so you may find it takes 90 years to decloak.
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Sounds good.
And another thing to Botji's QQ....
I suppose that ECCM pings could make Kluth appear for a longer time, at the default level, without ECM intervention. Then you can add the effects of ECM as a modifier to shorten the time to when they become invisible again.
... that is to say.... whenever someone pings... the signature spike to all cloaked ships should jump up further than they already do currently. This will have the effect of exposing cloaked ships for a slightly longer period.
And to combat this, Kluth will have to use their ECMs even whilst cloaked, to reduce this effect.
Fair trade?
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Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
| Posted: 2010-08-26 03:44
Azreal: does this mean that my fleet may now safely put me on follow?
I would say they may more safely do so. The only guarantee of a safe jump is plotting it yourself and verifying that no obstructions are in your way. And this is assuming you're not descynced, of course.
Random observation: I find it amusing how two players both have walls of text but complain of exactly the opposite thing - one that pinging is a problem and cloak needs to be faster, the other that pinging is worthless and cloak is massively overpowered. But hey, equally well-written complaints on opposite sides of the same issue means its balanced, right?
Botji: Seriously the luth arent unbalanced because they can cloak as often as they want, no cooldown was just topping it off. Cloak is unbalanced because there is no reasonable counter for it and almost no drawbacks, and now there are even less drawbacks.
We would disagree with you -- first off that they're vastly imbalanced, but secondly that the cloak is perfect.
The design theory for K'Luth is that they are weakly armored, strongly offensive, and can define the terms of engagement - that is, they should have first strike capabilities, and their strikes should be pretty painful, but they are energy intensive and thus can't infinitely make those strikes, nor does their relatively weaker armor allow them to stick it out in a fight as long as a human.
Of course, this isn't always perfectly implemented. But the theory is that cloak should allow them to position themselves and then attack basically right as the enemy can react - not immediately, but with only a slight delay (1 second was our choice a while back, as above). That way people can ejump or target or distress or whatever, but K'Luth still have first mover advantage.
...get short 0.5 sec pings of red targets flying around, most of the time you dont even have time to select a target before the ping is over.
and pursuant to the above, ping is not and was never designed to allow you to target and attack cloaked K'Luth ships. That you have time to do so at all is a perk; the idea is just to inform you that something is lurking - you might know there's a shark in the water, but you're not sure exactly where its coming from until it charges, basically. If you do manage to spot them and get in a few shots before they move out of your firing area, great for you, but that's not why pinging is there.
Kenny_Naboo: I suppose that ECCM pings could make Kluth appear for a longer time, at the default level, without ECM intervention
All that said, pinging is more a bug turned into a feature than anything (or at least adapted to with other balance changes), so its not exactly the easiest thing to tweak...
So your suggestion isn't very feasible.
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NoBoDx
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 14, 2003
Posts: 784
From: Germany / NRW
| Posted: 2010-08-26 04:17
Quote:
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On 2010-08-25 21:08, Azreal wrote:
- When in follow/shadow and your target jumps, the code will now check if your jump is clear of obstruction before jumping.
does this mean that my fleet may now safely put me on follow?
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that means, that you can jump with a big smile into the nearest planet, but the remaning fleet wont follow you 
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