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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
|  Posted: 2010-08-26 04:25
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On 2010-08-26 03:44, Shigernafy wrote:
Kenny_Naboo: I suppose that ECCM pings could make Kluth appear for a longer time, at the default level, without ECM intervention
All that said, pinging is more a bug turned into a feature than anything (or at least adapted to with other balance changes), so its not exactly the easiest thing to tweak...
So your suggestion isn't very feasible.
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In other words, the only other way to make sure that Kluth contacts appear for a longer period would be to slow down the Signature drop across the board? Including cloaking too.
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Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
| Posted: 2010-08-26 04:37
Well, I'm not actually sure. It may be possible to make ECCM increase signature by more and thus make pinging more effective; alternately, slowing down cloaking could do the same. Is there a difference in ping duration against scouts and dreadnoughts? They have different cloak speed (or should), so that could provide an indication.
It's mostly just that its not a system we designed from the ground up to work as it does, so its harder to tweak than if it weren't a convenient accident.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-08-26 05:04
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On 2010-08-26 04:37, Shigernafy wrote:
Well, I'm not actually sure. It may be possible to make ECCM increase signature by more and thus make pinging more effective; alternately, slowing down cloaking could do the same. Is there a difference in ping duration against scouts and dreadnoughts? They have different cloak speed (or should), so that could provide an indication.
It's mostly just that its not a system we designed from the ground up to work as it does, so its harder to tweak than if it weren't a convenient accident.
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Perhaps that could work. Making ECCM increase siggy more. You could try that out.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2010-08-26 06:02
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On 2010-08-26 04:37, Shigernafy wrote:
Is there a difference in ping duration against scouts and dreadnoughts? They have different cloak speed (or should), so that could provide an indication.
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Nope, there's no difference, or if there is it's so miniscule there might as well not be any.
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sonicmeerkat
Joined: August 04, 2010
Posts: 10
| Posted: 2010-08-26 07:28
well my favourite pinging technique is to have 5 ECCM on a recon scout and set it up so the ECCMs are assigned to 3,4,5,6,7 and just hit the keys one after another while launching beacons at the cloaked ship....i am much loved for doing that cloak doezn't really need too much of a nerf it just takes a bit of smart playing and cloak is reduced to nothingness anyway 
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Bardiche
Chief Marshal
Joined: November 16, 2006
Posts: 1247
| Posted: 2010-08-26 08:11
I think the only gripe I have with K'Luth cloak is just that it requires a solely singular strategy from the human side if ECCM no longer increases decloak time.
With UGTO, you can use a number of strategies to deal with ICC. The reverse is also true - the problem lies with cloak permitting K'Luth first strike virtually always, it means that K'Luth have ill need for support ships, and the best way to deal with K'Luth (or rather, the only efficient way) is to have an Interdictor, beacons and Dreadnoughts as far as the eye can see.
I think this is a serious design flaw where one faction can afford to field nothing but Dreadnoughts due to sheer efficiency of such a strategy, whereas other factions are told things as, "K'Luth are cloaking? Grab a Recon" or "ICC Missile spam? We designed the Picket for that" and "Destroyers are fast and agile, counter them with your own!"
Now, I get that you want to move to a balanced game. But our ways to combat K'Luth cloak are growing fewer, whereas the cloak has just been given a major buff/bug correction. (no matter what you call it, the end result is that it will become stronger than it is right now)
To wit: the only part of Cloak we can combat is the de-cloak time. If we do this, we must also have an Interdictor. One ship dedicated to running EW is in no position to ping enemies. One ship running dedicated EW is also a ship not running dedicated combat, and due to each K'Luth ship having ECM which works while cloaked, you'd need more EW ships as the K'Luth armada increases.
It's just not feasible to counter-act the decloak time. All we can do is field an Interdictor and hope it can survive against the K'Luth armada. Maybe field multiple ones as necessary and hope we outnumber enough to still have enough of a combat force on so we don't get rolled.
Yeah, sorry - I don't mean to turn into a rant or whatever or butthurt, but I just don't enjoy fighting K'Luth and I enjoy it less and less with every change you make. I don't want to play hide-and-go-seek with spaceships. I don't want to play waiting games for the enemy to show themselves so we can have potshots at them. (and their ridiculously fast armour generation)
I want to play a tactical spaceship simulation and right now, that is achieved only when fighting ICC as UGTO, or UGTO as ICC. There's no "tactics" in fighting K'Luth apart from huddling together, covering rears and hoping for the best. It's already bad enough they have the advantage of information regarding numbers and can select their engagements carefully - it's ridiculous they should also have an "attack whenever and wherever you want" card.
You wanted to prevent cases where K'Luth just pop people in their planet clusters? This is not the way forward. There is no reason for K'Luth to worry about planets defending someone if they can uncloak in 1 second, or 0.5 seconds. Planetary defence can't kill any ship before it cloaks.
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Nuds
Fleet Admiral
Joined: July 30, 2004
Posts: 19
From: NOM
| Posted: 2010-08-26 08:48
The thing is, in any game with playable races/factions/classes that have a stealth ability or is stealth based, fighting them is pretty much up to using a single tactic or through brute force.
In FPS games, take TF2 for example, the Spy can just walk up to you and stab you in the face. There are several counters but it's mostly dependant on skill and luck.
In RTS games, commando/infiltration units can only be countered via detectors or dedicated hunter-killer units. Again, little to no soft counters.
In MMO/MMORPGS, take WoW for example. The Rogue is pretty much the universally most hated opponent in PVP. Their ability to stealth and the first strike advantage/stunlock and burst DPS is immensely annoying to the player on the receiving end of it. However, that is the way that class is meant to be played. Take away their stealth ability and it pretty much breaks the class.
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is, I personally don't think there is a way to tweak the cloak to the point where it can be as perfectly balanced against the other two human factions as it possibly can in a MMO game.
The only way for perfect balance would be to make Luth the equivalent of the human faction, which is taking away the cloak and buffing armor.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-08-26 08:58
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On 2010-08-26 07:28, Darkness incarnate wrote:
well my favourite pinging technique is to have 5 ECCM on a recon scout and set it up so the ECCMs are assigned to 3,4,5,6,7 and just hit the keys one after another while launching beacons at the cloaked ship....i am much loved for doing that cloak doezn't really need too much of a nerf it just takes a bit of smart playing and cloak is reduced to nothingness anyway
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Can this be true? An ICC player who's not a whiner.....
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On 2010-08-26 08:48, Nuds wrote:
The thing is, in any game with playable races/factions/classes that have a stealth ability or is stealth based, fighting them is pretty much up to using a single tactic or through brute force.
In FPS games, take TF2 for example, the Spy can just walk up to you and stab you in the face. There are several counters but it's mostly dependant on skill and luck.
In RTS games, commando/infiltration units can only be countered via detectors or dedicated hunter-killer units. Again, little to no soft counters.
In MMO/MMORPGS, take WoW for example. The Rogue is pretty much the universally most hated opponent in PVP. Their ability to stealth and the first strike advantage/stunlock and burst DPS is immensely annoying to the player on the receiving end of it. However, that is the way that class is meant to be played. Take away their stealth ability and it pretty much breaks the class.
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is, I personally don't think there is a way to tweak the cloak to the point where it can be as perfectly balanced against the other two human factions as it possibly can in a MMO game.
The only way for perfect balance would be to make Luth the equivalent of the human faction, which is taking away the cloak and buffing armor.
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Very very true. I love using the Spy in TF2.
I've always preferred stealth over brute force anytime. And what you say is true.... as long as there is stealth involved, be it a cloak, or just plain radar invisibility.... the other side(s) who don't have it will QQ and whine there bleeding eyes out.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2010-08-26 09:42
Comparing Kluth to other games doesn't really work. TF2 spy is one class, not an entire race/faction. Same with stealth units in other games, they're one class, not an entire race/faction. If you want a valid comparison to ICC/UGTO vs Kluth it'd be like if all Horde classes in wow had the Rogue's stealth ability, where all Kluth ships have cloak and not just a couple specialized ships.
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Nuds
Fleet Admiral
Joined: July 30, 2004
Posts: 19
From: NOM
| Posted: 2010-08-26 10:05
That's the point though. Since all Luth have cloaks, it would be hard to make a change to balance say Dreads without it adversely affecting scouts or frigates.
One possible solution could be to have different classes of cloaks, say Class I for scouts/frigs, Class II for dessies to cruisers and Class III for Dreads and Stations. Obviously it wouldn't be that simple. But you get the point.
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Nurfed
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 09, 2010
Posts: 5
From: Canada
| Posted: 2010-08-26 10:12
Why don't we just get over it. Half of k'luth left, and the game is dying.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-08-26 10:57
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On 2010-08-26 10:12, Nurfed wrote:
Why don't we just get over it. Half of k'luth left, and the game is dying.
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Tell me abt it. Some PB players have actually switched over to EVE because they're sick of all the whining in and out of game on the matter.
Matter of fact, I'm on TS with some of them in EVE now. LOL....
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2010-08-26 11:17
Like I've said, no matter what is done to "balance" Kluth either human players or Kluth players will not like it. There is no middle ground that will satisfy both.
This whining has been going on almost since Kluth were first playable which is what, over 8 years ago? It will continue to go on so long as Kluth are playable (which is till the end of DS), because the simple fact is cloak is annoying to play against, and nerfing cloak is annoying to those who rely on it.
Remember when the devs were saying Kluth are balanced now and won't be changed? When did that opinion change? It was during 1.5 that it was said, on many occasions.
This game will never be balanced to a point where both human and Kluth players are equally satisfied.
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Sauur
Chief Marshal
Praetorian Wolves
Joined: November 30, 2004
Posts: 475
| Posted: 2010-08-26 13:55
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On 2010-08-26 11:17, MrSparkle wrote:
Like I've said, no matter what is done to "balance" Kluth either human players or Kluth players will not like it. There is no middle ground that will satisfy both.
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This version is as close to balanced as I have seen this game over the last eight years (yes I had an older account).
I doubt without luth in the mix to keep things random this game would actually exist - would not have been around for so many years.
You want to play a pure 1v1 balanced game - go play chess, though you will still likely argue over who gets to move first.
I played 'luth through 483 and I won more than I lost, the faction was considered broken (Hell you could one shot a siphon for a kill if you knew what to do) - yet i achieved an 11 :1 kill ratio care of the Siphon and I am very proud of that. Yet that kill ratio was handed to me care of Smartin - a guy who abused my loyalty to a fault through impecible teamwork.
You all seem to want your victories handed to you via game mechanics - the balance should not alter from here on in +/- a few 0.1's of a percentile.
Ya'll need to start thinking outside the square! I reckon the developers have done well by all factions! ( There is certainly not a faction that is as underpowered as 'luth 483 )
Anyway - that;s just my opinion.
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Marius Falix
Grand Admiral
Joined: July 05, 2010
Posts: 268
From: Luyten
| Posted: 2010-08-26 14:22
well with the whole specialization thing.
why not have beacons on a dread or other. make it swappable in the EW slot.
or a god damned Luth hunter ship, like a cruiser with lots of heavy chems with a beacon and 3 EW.
something like that.
u can still do an effiecient job, can still do damage and luth wont bitch they got nurfed.
coz its whats happening right now. face it.
keeping the beacon reserved for scouts is kinda retarded and illogical
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