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ICC whats become of it.......? |
Bardiche
Chief Marshal
Joined: November 16, 2006
Posts: 1247
|  Posted: 2009-10-10 11:58
Quote:
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On 2009-10-10 11:22, Code Red [Fallen Angel] wrote:
Spot on Coombie , i see comments and wise advice from people but where are you in MV , I see coombie and i see point , xtx and nukey NO other regular icc players so unless you play regular and see that there is you and if your lucky one other player i suggest try playing a bit more before hand.
"Guy Who Flies AD: Why are you flying an AD? You're the vanguard for the main fleet. Guard your missile units and only swoop in for the kill. "
- this is excatly my point - missile units rofl this isnt .483 when we had a fleet flying , read the first post = lack of players.
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Activity has nothing to do with this. I've been in the MV plenty of times.
Just because there is no teamwork presently doesn't mean the game should be dumped down to, "there are three factions. They're basically all the same. Also, teamwork breaks combat."
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Eledore Massis [R33]
Grand Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: May 26, 2002
Posts: 2694
From: tsohlacoLocalhost
| Posted: 2009-10-10 19:37
Quote:
| On 2009-10-10 10:42, Schild wrote:
Eledore: You have a Jump Drive yourself, too. Use it.
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Yes lets use it.
-Jump away.
-Turn to bring Front missiles to target.
-Get jumped.
-Jump away.
-Turn to bring Front missiles to target.
-Get jumped.
? ? ? not verry effective is it.. how about the next.
- Some one fails to close jump because of dictor.
- at ~800gu away you start yer missile barrage.
- at ~500 gu away the target notices he isn't getting anywhere and turnes to escape.
- Your AD and HC jump in for the kill.
Or even
- when you do get damaged bad, just jump out. not like the guy still sitting alongside a ICC fleet when being dictored will have the chance to track and kill you. Ok some of his friends might..
But we can discuss long and hard. I flew dictor a lot in the past, and i know just how effective it can be when used correctly.
Heck.. i bet you modern guys never ever laid down a proper trap.. Guess that takes to much teamwork..
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Bardiche
Chief Marshal
Joined: November 16, 2006
Posts: 1247
| Posted: 2009-10-10 21:59
I fail to see what lording your alleged superiority over a playerbase you scarce know is meant to accomplish.
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Supertrooper
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: March 18, 2004
Posts: 1895
From: Maryland, U.S.A
| Posted: 2009-10-10 22:53
I agree with Fornax here.
After a few recent times ingame, ICC really don't seem like a bad faction shipwise, player wise is a whole different story. It isn't the ship, it's the pilot. Always has been, always will. Shield regen sucks, boohoo. Learn to dodge a few shots here and there, and you'll see that the shield regen doesn't hamper you that much. ICC has always been the half-retarded third cousin of Darkspace shipwise, but the players (until .483) have been above standard, and have been able compete and be a force against other factions. Honestly, stop the bitching about how bad shields are, and come up with some new tactics and skills to make yourself the better players.
Now for Dictors.. Uh, whats the problem? Ships aren't complete pushover this version, and thats all anyone wanted last version when dictors caused everybody's pansyships to get killed. Man up and play smart, if you get caught in a dictor stop playing offense and scramble. Bob and weave your way out of there, don't move in a straight line. If you have a force comparable to the size of the enemy fleet, don't planet camp and hope the ones who actualy went to fight can get out. Go out there and fight to get them out of there.
So, stop complaining when you don't like something, because it probably comes down to you lacking the knowledge or skill to make it work.
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Rae
Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: May 23, 2002
Posts: 284
From: 10 minutes away in a fast boat
| Posted: 2009-10-11 00:41
Quote:
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On 2009-10-10 22:53, Captain Crim wrote:
I agree with Fornax here.
After a few recent times ingame, ICC really don't seem like a bad faction shipwise, player wise is a whole different story. It isn't the ship, it's the pilot. Always has been, always will. Shield regen sucks, boohoo. Learn to dodge a few shots here and there, and you'll see that the shield regen doesn't hamper you that much. ICC has always been the half-retarded third cousin of Darkspace shipwise, but the players (until .483) have been above standard, and have been able compete and be a force against other factions. Honestly, stop the bitching about how bad shields are, and come up with some new tactics and skills to make yourself the better players.
Now for Dictors.. Uh, whats the problem? Ships aren't complete pushover this version, and thats all anyone wanted last version when dictors caused everybody's pansyships to get killed. Man up and play smart, if you get caught in a dictor stop playing offense and scramble. Bob and weave your way out of there, don't move in a straight line. If you have a force comparable to the size of the enemy fleet, don't planet camp and hope the ones who actualy went to fight can get out. Go out there and fight to get them out of there.
So, stop complaining when you don't like something, because it probably comes down to you lacking the knowledge or skill to make it work.
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i lol'd so hard i damn near wet my pants. i'm not sure whether to thank you or continue to laugh at your post. as usual with every single thing you post, good effort crim. or krim. or whatever or whoever you are.
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Sliverine
1st Rear Admiral
Joined: November 23, 2006
Posts: 29
From: Singapore
| Posted: 2009-10-11 00:46
back to the subject : ICC whats become of it.......?
seeing that they have managed to take almost 4 out of 5 systems in the mv (last i saw they alr took almost half of the luth home system), i say they have become pretty darn strong...
edit: maybe we can see a uggie-luthy alliance soon. finally someone allies with the bugs!
[ This Message was edited by: fatalerror on 2009-10-11 00:47 ]
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2009-10-11 01:22
ICC is a defensive faction, but because of this they also become a ranged faction.
This is important to note. Nearly all of their combat ships are designed around long range. So are their weaponry.
This can be seen from their cannons (longest range, fastest shot speed).
Or from their torpedos (same).
Or that they have such a large number of missile ships - and how many more missiles they have on them.
Basically its trying to tell you, keep your distance.
But while in theory its great, there are a few problems in balance.
Without a dictor, its pretty much impossible to keep any enemy ships at range. Even more true in fleet battles. This makes it much more difficult for ICC to make most effective use of their ships because the other factions are basically close-range.
And typically, interdictors make people bawww. Hell, even Faustus has debated getting rid of them.
Secondly, at maximum range of ICC ships weapons, more often than not they will still miss, especially in smaller ship battles. Even dreadnoughts can dodge weapons shot from close to 2kgu.
And for some reason since our balance dev's seem so intent on pairing a few close range weapons with long range weapons, the only way to bring the full force of an ICC ship is, you guessed it, up close.
Even maintaining distance without jump drives is a challenge, because ICC has such horrible energy problems. UGTO ships can go full speed and keep friing for some time; ICC ships don't have nearly so good of luck.
Personally, I've favored a few balance changes to help.
- Reduce energy drain on shields, or add more energy gain on ships. One or the other. Why let ICC ships go anything above half speed when if they do it sucks them dry? Energy hinderance makes sense at 80-100% speed. Not at 40%. ICC ships are designed around low energy cost weapons, why not let them use that to their advantage?
- More effective weapons and ship design. UGTO cannons get a falloff - they do more damage up close. Why can't ICC cannons do more damage from farther away? ICC's strength is their range, why not give some solid encouragement to let them do so?
Given their ammo limitations, I also feel that ICC cannons should be even more accurate. That means faster shots. UGTO rely on spamming their cannons, and Kluth pretty much get close enough they can't miss. Logically, using their advantage should not be less certain than other factions, unless of course, using that advantage makes them far more superior than other factions using theirs.
Ship design is also a problem to me in some cases. Don't mix and match weapon ranges on ships. Torpedos and missiles shouldn't find themselves on the same ship. But that is my own opinion.
But I do hope for something along these lines. There is a reason why people avoid ICC, and thats because they aren't as easy as the other factions. But even people who want a challenge wince at it because they are really at a disadvantage against other factions. I hope you can consider this thoughtfully.
-Ent
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Coombie
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: October 04, 2001
Posts: 149
From: Australia
| Posted: 2009-10-11 01:53
Well said Ent, that pretty much sums it up. there are many ships on icc that look like the designer couldent work out what to do so just slapped 1 of everything on it and made it useless, icc energy drain is super bad compared to ugto and kluth.
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Lux (Polaris)
Fleet Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: April 20, 2004
Posts: 835
From: Asgard
| Posted: 2009-10-11 02:19
I'm an old-time ICC...will probably be playing a lot more now that it's free till 1st RA. Which is great, by the way.
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ICC Security Councilor - Raven representative
Loyal Admiral of the Interstellar Cultural Confederation Navy.
Senior Commander of the Raven Warriors, the ICC elite.
Captain of the Assault Dreadnaught \"Gungnir\"
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JBud
Marshal
Joined: February 26, 2008
Posts: 1900
From: Behind you.
| Posted: 2009-10-11 03:47
Quote:
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On 2009-10-10 21:59, Schild wrote:
I fail to see what lording your alleged superiority over a playerbase you scarce know is meant to accomplish.
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Is that.... Bardiche????
Sorry, off topic...
Anyways, from what I see it's the pilots more than the faction that make ICC weak, I'm not saying any one person or any specific people, what I'm saying is we all are here to fight, and ICC are defensive, but naturally we tend to act offensively with these ships (yes I say we, because I make the same mistakes) But all around the faction is great, they have some of the longest ranged weapons, USE that range. 
ICC may not be what it used to be, but the faction is now what it's ment to be. In my opinion, it's good.
Just giving my two cents.
[ This Message was edited by: JBud on 2009-10-11 03:56 ]
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Phellan
Grand Admiral
Joined: February 27, 2007
Posts: 220
From: Red Light District
| Posted: 2009-10-11 11:52
For my two newbie cents, I mostly play icc and my biggest complaint is the energy. Shields do take a long time to recharge but my biggest issue is getting away. Without a dictor(either their not working or people wont play with them there) I jump away, ships jump after me, and its a speed race. At that point just keeping ahead of them drains all my energy so my shields, and eventually weapons, don't recharge.
In any larger ships the jd recharge is long enough that this is a death sentance, especially against a larger fleet that leapfrogs after you. I know such ships are meant to have a defensive fleet around them but with the current playerbase that just doesn't happen, and with the current weapon strength small ships don't do much good alone. I would say make icc ships able to stand on their own a bit more(but not ED status of course) until more people play, then balance down from that point. Don't make the shields stronger or faster but more energy would be nice.
The idea of using armor first then shields is a nice tip. I'm sure the vets could give better ways to play or contridict all my points but again with the current player base, alot of the icc stradigies don't work. I almost wish they would be replaced by a pirate type faction so an individual ship would have a stronger punch and be able to use guerilla tactics.
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$yTHe {C?}
Grand Admiral
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: September 29, 2002
Posts: 1292
From: Arlington, VA
| Posted: 2009-10-11 11:54
I'm glad we're having this thread again
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Winters Rapture
Fleet Admiral
United Nations Space Command
Joined: December 09, 2007
Posts: 355
| Posted: 2009-10-11 14:22
Quote:
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On 2009-10-11 01:22, Enterprise wrote:
Given their ammo limitations, I also feel that ICC cannons should be even more accurate. That means faster shots. UGTO rely on spamming their cannons, and Kluth pretty much get close enough they can't miss. Logically, using their advantage should not be less certain than other factions, unless of course, using that advantage makes them far more superior than other factions using theirs.
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Oh no, You used the 'L' Word!(And not limitations or less)
But yea, I agree with everything you said. I truly believe that some of the other players think the ICC is fine, but really, the playerbase stats should speak for themselves. I do think that some of the things you mentioned would be a welcome (And interesting) balance to a faction that really dose need it.
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Jim Starluck
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 2232
From: Cincinnati, OH
| Posted: 2009-10-11 16:32
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- Reduce energy drain on shields, or add more energy gain on ships. One or the other. Why let ICC ships go anything above half speed when if they do it sucks them dry? Energy hinderance makes sense at 80-100% speed. Not at 40%. ICC ships are designed around low energy cost weapons, why not let them use that to their advantage? |
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Drafell and I are already in the process of re-designing ship layouts which, for ICC, will include moar reactors all around.
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- More effective weapons and ship design. UGTO cannons get a falloff - they do more damage up close. Why can't ICC cannons do more damage from farther away? ICC's strength is their range, why not give some solid encouragement to let them do so? |
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This is already the case. ICC guns have a flat damage at all ranges, because they are projectiles--their damage is derived from the kinetic energy they hit with, which doesn't change over distance. What this means is that while Particle Cannons and Psi Cannons do greater damage at close range, that damage decreases with range--while damage from Railguns and Gauss Guns doesn't. Past a certain point--and I'm not sure where this is exactly--Railguns and Gauss Guns inflict greater damage than Particle or Psi Cannons.
Quote:
| Given their ammo limitations, I also feel that ICC cannons should be even more accurate. That means faster shots. UGTO rely on spamming their cannons, and Kluth pretty much get close enough they can't miss. Logically, using their advantage should not be less certain than other factions, unless of course, using that advantage makes them far more superior than other factions using theirs. |
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ICC already have the fastest projectiles in the game in the form of Gauss Guns. Railguns are also, IIRC, faster than their factional counterparts.
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Ship design is also a problem to me in some cases. Don't mix and match weapon ranges on ships. Torpedos and missiles shouldn't find themselves on the same ship. But that is my own opinion. |
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See aforementioned statement regarding ship layout redesigns. We're starting at the bottom and working our way up.
Anyway, there are already very few ships which have both torps and missiles--the Heavy Cruiser is the only one that really comes to mind, and it's intended to be a "jack of all trades" ship, so it's got some of every weapon. We may change this when we get to it, we may not--but I'll be working with an eye towards optimum layouts.
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2009-10-11 23:16
Quote:
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On 2009-10-11 01:22, Enterprise wrote:
ICC is a defensive faction, but because of this they also become a ranged faction.
This is important to note. Nearly all of their combat ships are designed around long range. So are their weaponry.
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Ent , sorry mate but you gotta log and compare 3 faction's ship. Well i am saying that , i dont know whoever designed weapon layouts, they are all same . Just faction specific weapons changes as ION,QST and SI.
Seeing an assault cruiser with 6 torpedos and with 11 beams ,just reminds me a scale with 11 disp and 6 am torps. Nowadays any noob can dodge 6 fusion torpedos which comes from 800 gu away . In this case long range isnt good enough .
Talking about missile dread , yep you can sit at 2900 gu away and fire. Missiles will reach the target lets say in 10-15 seconds? Kluth wont be in your ping range , and everything you fire will self destruct when target is cloaked.
So basicly , i think game balance will be established by itself whenever Ds is mode-able again. I know , we dont want uber ships. But would be hilarious if we could switch 11 beams on Ac to cannons.(not missile for torps, and leave energy as it is to balance moded ships). In this case icc would be long range.
In this game , only kluth choice where to fight and who the fight . This really unbalance the gameplay for icc. While icc supposes to be long range , always get engaged by kluth at close range. If even icc wants to attack , icc needs to get close (examples:ship or planet capturing,defending own planet , camping a strategic gate,saving a wounded team mate requires close combat.)Also this effects alot "prestige ratio/faction select".
You all can talk about player base lack or whatever . Yeah , it is true at some point. But with current icc , icc need 3 to 1 against kluth.
I say let the shield as it is , allow moding and also give icc the ability to fire all their weapons backward. So as defensive , icc can run but at least FIRE!
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