| Author |
Ship Rarity, Badges, and You |
Smartin
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 04, 2005
Posts: 1107
From: Michigan
|  Posted: 2008-06-26 17:50
Intresting topic, and a good read.
This has struck me with another idea. I will try to lay it out so it is understandable so bare with me here.
Now and days a lot of online games weather it is a FPS, RTS, or RPG everything is based around roles. When a player chooses a side/role/speciality the player now strives to become a master of it. I think DarkSpace could house a lot of the same ideas. Before you shoot me out of the air just hear me out because it could be a fun read if not anything else.
Why not give players the choice to work towards roles. Lets define a few obvious roles first.
- Supply
- Combat Pilot
- Builder
- Bomber
Granted those are just the obvious first 4, but here is what we would do with it. We already have numerous fields in our profiles going unused. I think it would be neat to setup some sort of point system, but in this sytem you wouldn't earn specific points for specific task. You would earn general points for all task.
Now what does this mean. Lets say Enterprise is in the MV, and he kills someone and earns 1 point. As the battle goes on Ent realise a supply is needed so he grabs his supy and is able to earn 200 repair points. Presto Ent has earned himself another point. Battle dies down, Ents head starts to hurt, and he is ready for a break. Upon leaving Ent has earned the following
1 point for the kill
1 point for the supplying.
(Keep in mind these numbers aren't exact. Don't post a reply with zomg one point per kill thats insano! It's just so I can get my idea across.)
Ent now has the option to spend his points via his profile. Ent decides he wants to be the most feared combat pilot to grace Sag Hotha, so Ent decides he will spend his points in Combat Pilot area. Therefore Ents profile would look something like:
Combat Pilot: +2
Supplying: 0
Bombing: 0
Building: 0
(Basing it off a fresh profile)
Then you implement a point system. Once Enterprise reaches x-number of Combat Pilot points he gains access to a better ship. Yes a reduant way of more badges, but we have now added a new feature of roles to DarkSpace. A player can gear him/herself to specialise in a certain area, and if said palyer is devoted enough could eventually be a well rounded player in all areas. Instead of being forced to create a seperate account for each specific area.
The beauty of this is it could be implemented in new and old player profiles, and we could keep our current badges as well. I know this would seem to be the same as whiping ones profile, but we could implement just these points into higher ships ie.. Cruiser dreads and/or Assualt vs Non-assulat class ships.
Maybe I am just wishful thinking, and it could pose more strain on the database, but I feel it could really add a new sense of excitement for new, and yes Older palyers. A new goal to earn, and a new reason to play the game more. Also don't tell me well the playerbase is to small to gear players twoards specific roles, because thats a load of crap. Also we can't gear a game towards a low playerbase we have high hopes for 1.500 to bring back old players, and to attract a lot of new players.
Anyways a long post comes to an end. Might need more debate to figure out the best way of doing something like that, or it might just be a crap idea but I enjoyed typing it out.
-Smartin-
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Sardaukar
Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: October 08, 2002
Posts: 1656
| Posted: 2008-06-26 17:59
Quote:[/small]
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On 2008-06-26 17:11, Bardiche wrote:
I think the entire removing manuevrability/weapons from a Dread idea is stupid.
We don't want everyone to fly Dreads, so we make Dreads less powerful and generate another 1.483 situation where flying Dreads IZ NOT GUD?
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I should clarify that my statement about liming dread speed is limited to either how fast they jump, or how long they must wait between jumps, or, hell, even a timer that starts when you a get a dread out and keeps you out of one until it expires (anywhere between five and ten, twenty minutes)- so that you should preserve your dread and not just throw it away in a blob of spam. But if it were a limit on jumping, it would ideally be on the recharge time, causing several things in battle:
-Takes longer to get to an offensive fight
-Can't dip in and out of combat, must be protected once it arrives, as withdrawal won't be an option for a few minutes.
-Close jumps are somewhat more limited, but are still deadly with tractors and interdictors. This is a glaring flaw for some people.
-In a war of attrition, the faster cruiser class will be essential to holding a presence for your faction in a combat zone. A fleet of all dreads may endure many blows, but once they're down, they've lost that fight for inabilty to rapidly reinforce it.
-Places the dreadnaught more firmly in a role where it excels at defense and is still the core firepower of a fleet, the backbone that the cruisers adhere to and reinforce, but is a very poor ship by itself because it can be harassed by nimbler cruisers.
One compromise I can see is placing these platinum badges on the Assault dreads, and let them retain their old jump speeds.
My fear with these platinum badges is that they're just going to turn into one more thing for people to place their prestige over the good of the faction for. Once enough people have those badges, we'll be right back in our present dilemma. It will punish players who can't play all day, and the prestigemongers will just have to spend another two or three months to get a bigger ship- probably less, tempting a grindrusher with a minimum time estimate is never a good idea.
[ This Message was edited by: Sardaukar on 2008-06-26 18:14 ]
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2008-06-26 18:17
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On 2008-06-26 17:50, Smartin wrote:
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A good idea, but flaws on many points. It allows players to specialize in one area without neccessarily having any experience in it.
Its also incredibly complicated, which just means more things for newbies to learn. I opted for the simplest solution.
Also to Sard, why assault dreadnoughts? Yes, them working in a pack is powerful, but so are regular combat and support dreadnoughts. Why should they be easy to get simply because they aren't as good? They're still better than cruisers.
Theres also a flaw in your logic that:
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-In a war of attrition, the faster cruiser class will be essential to holding a presence for your faction in a combat zone. A fleet of all dreads may endure many blows, but once they're down, they've lost that fight for inabilty to rapidly reinforce it.
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Cruisers have to be in the majority, numerically.
That is the main problem with the 2 cruisers = 1 dreadnoughts way of thinking that 1.5 goes by. The faction in cruisers has more people than the faction with dreadnoughts in any given battle, the dreadnoughts win.
Unless there are an equal amount of ships and ship types per faction at any given time, relatively, then balance goes haywire. If there are two sides, one side decided to have all dreadnoughts, then other side, unless they have more people, will have to respond with the same ships. Six cruisers, unless the dreadnoughts were totally inept in every way, wont win that battle.
Again, while it makes Dreadnoughts more vulnerable (and by god at the moment they need to have some reliance on smaller ships), it doesnt solve the core issue at hand, that simply going for superior firepower will win the fight when in most cases, people do not engage in fights in which they are outnumbered and/or outgunned. They either try to balance the numbers or balance the firepower, aka meeting Dreadnought with Dreadnought. Since that should follow with cruiser with cruiser, it doesnt because Dreadnoughts can do it better.
Which is the whole point of making them rarer until a more permanently solution is found.
-Ent
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Coeus
Grand Admiral
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: March 22, 2006
Posts: 2815
From: Philly
| Posted: 2008-06-26 19:12
Wow smartin thats actually a really great idea I think...
Ent, think of it this way - yeah it lets you become uber powerful at something without having to do any of it - but if, perhaps, you get MORE points INTO that skill ALONG with the points to allocate...
Take his example.
Instead of just the one point per kill to allocate, you get the one free point to allocate, along with a point into your combat skill. So yeah, you can sit there and supply all night and pump into your combat, but it will take twice as long.
I love this idea. Lets do it!
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2008-06-26 19:22
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On 2008-06-26 19:12, Coeus wrote:
Wow smartin thats actually a really great idea I think...
Ent, think of it this way - yeah it lets you become uber powerful at something without having to do any of it - but if, perhaps, you get MORE points INTO that skill ALONG with the points to allocate...
Take his example.
Instead of just the one point per kill to allocate, you get the one free point to allocate, along with a point into your combat skill. So yeah, you can sit there and supply all night and pump into your combat, but it will take twice as long.
I love this idea. Lets do it!
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This does alleviate the problem somewhat, but there is still the problem of complication. While I love things that add new layers of depth to the game and so do some others, the majority does not. Thats why complicated things are usually discouraged (hi Draf!).
Its why again, I opt for a simpler solution that does the same job, albeit in a more general way, without the unneccessary complication. It might still also, have the added effect of disgruntling people who are especially prideful of the stats they have earned (and theres alot of them out there). Mostly because it may give the feeling that they were 'wasted'.
I'm not saying its a bad idea, just that its unlikely to sell on the masses and, although this may be radically wrong, new players may not appreciate an even more in depth part of the game to learn over just having to earn more of the same.
-Ent
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2008-06-26 19:37
Taking Smartins idea and modifying it
Instead of having "points" you have a generic EXP bar. The more you do bombing in a x time frame, the more exp you gain in that stat. You only get this bar once hit the rank of Captain, so at least that way you have some knowledge of the game.
Example:
I play for 5 hours. Of those 5 hours, 3 hours are in a combat ship, 1 hour in a supply, and 45 minutes in a bomber and 15 minutes in a engie ship
So, my stats would be this:
Combat: .6
Supply: .2
Bombing: .15
Engie: .05
To make it easier to undestand, multiply by 10:
Combat: 6
Supply: 2
Bombing: 1.5
Engie: .5
So, I have 6 "exp" in combat. Thats pretty high, and I would probably be able to access all combat ships except the Line Station (granted I have the rank for it and such).
Of course, this is all an example, but I hope it makes my point across.
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Sixkiller
Marshal
Courageous Elite Commandos
Joined: May 11, 2005
Posts: 1786
From: Netherlands
| Posted: 2008-06-27 03:53
the only way i see to get rid of the top-heavy part is simply to reset. It might also scare some people off, but it would balance it. Even with 20k for those badges, there are god knows how many people that already HAVE that.
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CrashDown
Cadet
Joined: May 29, 2007
Posts: 63
From: Estonia
| Posted: 2008-06-27 04:22
yeah reset everyones profiles 
im sure coombie will be a happy camper 
ok enough of bashing that idea 
the best and only way to fix this situation is to bump up pres loss for a dread blowing up, if you loose a dread you should get like 1500 pres off your account, which would make you really REALLY consider taking a dread or a station into battle, you loose one and theres a huge chunk of your pres gone, people would avoid flying dreads and only a select few would have the cohones to take a station for a spin, the ammount of smaller ships cruisers and dessies would go well up.
i wouldnt fly a solo dread if i got a hit of 1500 or more for losing it, donno about the rest of you.
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2008-06-27 05:46
Quote:
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On 2008-06-27 03:53, Sixkiller *CL* wrote:
the only way i see to get rid of the top-heavy part is simply to reset. It might also scare some people off, but it would balance it. Even with 20k for those badges, there are god knows how many people that already HAVE that.
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To truely illustrate the massive difference between how many people would have Platinum version of a badge versus those who have Gold, and how effective it would be at reducing Dreadnought population instantly...
As a result of increased badges.. 20k for Platinum, as an example. (2000 for Platinum Transport).
- There are 142 people who would have Platinum Combat. Compared to the 1756 who already have Gold Combat.
- There are 114 people who would have Platinum Bomber. Compared to the 1829 who already have Gold Bomber.
- There are 61 people who would have Platinum Transport. Compared to the 1885 who already have Gold Transport.
- There are 22 people who would have Platinum Support. Compared to the 1442 who already have Gold Support.
- There are 42 people who would have Platinum Engineer. Compared to the 1653 who already have Gold Engineer.
- There are 98 people who would have Platinum Navigator. Compared to the 2957 who already have Gold Navigator.
Take a look at those numbers.
For those who are terrible at math or do not know how to use a calculator:
For any ship that required a single one of these badges, as I was proposing;
There would be twelve times less people who could get a Dreadnought with Platinum Combat.
Sixteen times less people in any requiring Platinum Bomber.
Thirty times less people in any requiring Platinum Navigator.
Thirty-one times less people in any requiring Platinum Transport.
Thirty-nine times less people in any requiring Platinum Engineer.
Sixty-six times less people in any requiring Platinum Support.
Look at those numbers. Try and tell me it wont make a difference.
Thats one hell of a difference. Even assuming only a fourth of each holder of a current Gold badge comes back, you still reduce the amount of people in Dreadnoughts by at least a half.
Theres no need to reset profiles. Something as simple as this, is enough.
And just so you know, high prestige loss will just make Dreadnoughts run the first chance their armor goes below 70%. Gonna dictor them? Then you can bet they'll never leave home unless they have superior firepower.
I thought we already went over how high prestige loss doesn't deterr people, and there are some people who dont care anyways (Hi Feral!).
No matter how far away you'd be from a dreadnought now, everyone has to make sacrifices sometimes. And besides, what would an MMO be without new and exciting challenges?
-Ent
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CrashDown
Cadet
Joined: May 29, 2007
Posts: 63
From: Estonia
| Posted: 2008-06-27 07:46
thing is, i doubt many people will stick arround without dreads, tbh i dont want to be stuck flying a cruiser for 6 months just to get some crappy version of a dread.
lets take EVE for an example, you can get in a "dread" (battleship) within a month, but to fly it well you need atleast 6 months of skills.
nerfing the game so that only a select few will ever fly a dread would be a bad idea, im not saying anything about ent, but would you reset your profile and start fresh when you know that to fly a dread you need 20k combat pres? somehow i doubt id be willing to do that.
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Axianda The Royal
Fleet Admiral
Terra Squadron
Joined: November 20, 2001
Posts: 4273
From: Axianda
| Posted: 2008-06-27 07:55
how about this. if its possible.
most players take out a dread for 1) its cool a big ship... 2) Because of the damage they do and thus the prestige you get.
what if it is possible to add a modifier to the ammount of prestige a pilots gets based on what ship he is using and what ship he is shooting at.
meaning if you get a big ship and shoot little target your wont get much prestige. but if you take something on thats equal or bigger than you then the prestige gain levels and even increases.
meaning not only do you have the risk of loosing a lot of prestige it will get a lot harder to gain the prestige to compensate for a lost ship.
equally the smaller ships get the oppertunity to get a little more extra prestige at the cost of a bigger risk... that way it will become more interesting to take out smaller ships from time to time depending on the situation.
hope it made sense need my coffee
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2008-06-27 08:22
Firstly Crash, I wouldn't suggest anything I wouldn't be prepared to do myself in the first place.
Secondly, you are only reinforcing the point that people only play the game to fly Dreadnoughts, that being 'stuck' in a cruiser is a bad thing, that the only things worth using are Dreadnoughts.
Thats bad. At leats to me. Maybe every other ship is meant to be worthless. I don't buy that though.
Thirdly, it should take someone six months of hardcore playing just to get to FA, and if at by that point it takes that long to get the stats, then well, whats the problem?
And lastly, keep in mind that games without a challenge quickly get boring. Six months? In most MMOs, six months is just starting out.
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On 2008-06-27 07:55, Axianda wrote:
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What about the people who are GA and have no need for prestige? Remember there are alot of max ranked players out there who play for fun, and if Dreadnoughts are the only outlet where you stand a reasonable chance in most situations, then thats all they will fly.
For people not yet there, it does give them some incentive to band together and fight against Dreadnoughts in smaller ships, but given just how much you have to outnumber Dreadnoughts in order to beat them, and the likelyhood that the other side getting more Dreadnoughts solves the problem easier.. you see the issue. Its unrealistic to expect people to stay in cruisers when, unless they have superior numbers in addition to superior skill and teamwork, then they don't have a chance at all.
Extra prestige is not incentive when the odds are still stacked too high. The easiest way out is often the most preferred.
-Ent
[ This Message was edited by: Enterprise on 2008-06-27 08:36 ]
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Coeus {NCX-Charger}
Admiral, I can't read,
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: February 16, 2004
Posts: 3635
From: South Philly
| Posted: 2008-06-27 08:59
Everyone is raising some interesting points and re-raising some old ideas that were tossed around - here is my thought.
WHAT are those profiles that have those stats, Ent? Because I'd wager dollars to donuts that most of those high combat pilots are retired, and most of those high bomber pilots are not. (by retired, I mean not active in the last 6-12 months - we all know how the latest revisions gimpt the server populations a few months back).
Assuming that, we get far fewer people in the high power combat dreads, and more than average in the uber bombing/command dreads.
I'll continue this later, at training class. Just mull that over a bit
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2008-06-27 09:44
Quote:[/small]
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On 2008-06-27 08:59, NotCoeus wrote:
Assuming that, we get far fewer people in the high power combat dreads, and more than average in the uber bombing/command dreads.
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And this is a bad thing.. how? People who exploited the past version will likely only have access to ships that they 'earned', the Bomber Dreadnought and possibly Command Dreadnoughts, but as Command Dreadnoughts are in the Super Dreadnought class, they'd likely require a second Platinum Badge too.
Given that Bombers and Command Dreadnoughts are not geared towards combat and are more supporting roles in fleets, its not such a terrible thing. Dont think I havent considered that Coeus.
And I think its also interesting to note, that there are less total people who would get a Platinum Bombing badge than there are people who will get a Platinum Combat badge. Although with the latter its mostly older players, new version bring those people back.
-Ent
[ This Message was edited by: Enterprise on 2008-06-27 09:49 ]
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CrashDown
Cadet
Joined: May 29, 2007
Posts: 63
From: Estonia
| Posted: 2008-06-27 10:42
sorry but people do fly cruisers and dessies all the time, even in the current version. so your dreadspace argument is flawed and will be flawed.
the only problem i see is with the new tractor beams the permanently blow any chance of flying a small ship.
currently 2 - 3 dessies can easily take out a dread and they do so, with the new tractors you just suspend a dessie in mid space and hammer at it with you 24 cannons.
removing the maneuverobility of small ships using tractors is a bad idea and it will make the feared dreadspace, remove tractors and everything is fine, dessies can move ultra quick and dodge fire so can cruisers, dreads are meant to sit still and hit huge targets, its pretty ahrd trying to kill a cruiser in a dread since the cruiser gets out of your effective range oh SO fast.
creating platinum badges for darkspace which is a game that amuses me for about a month, is silly, dont think anyone is hardcore enough to grind out badges people are here to get in a ship and fight at equal or superior footing.
making an eve clone with lots of skills(badges) is silly
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