On 2008-06-27 10:42, CrashDown wrote:
sorry but people do fly cruisers and dessies all the time, even in the current version. so your dreadspace argument is flawed and will be flawed.

the only problem i see is with the new tractor beams the permanently blow any chance of flying a small ship.


currently 2 - 3 dessies can easily take out a dread and they do so, with the new tractors you just suspend a dessie in mid space and hammer at it with you 24 cannons.

On 2008-06-27 10:42, CrashDown wrote:
sorry but people do fly cruisers and dessies all the time, even in the current version. so your dreadspace argument is flawed and will be flawed.

On 2008-06-27 19:55, BackSlash *Jack* wrote:
Your arguements are insanely flawed, Ent.

Dreadnoughts are AWESOMELY better for SOME things. Not all. They do more damage, and can take more damage than cruisers, but cruisers can ultimately run faster, jump quicker, and turn faster. There are advantages on both sides, and we've given the pilots in lesser ships abilities to avoid the larger ships to a certain extent.

We've explained this over and over, and discussing it anymore is fruitless.

[/quote]

Yeah, because I'm not a Dev, I know nothing about balance, I haven't played since DS first came out, I dont know anything, I dont have skill yadda yadda yadda.

Attempting to argue with you is less effective than beating my head against a wall.

Since you choose not read previous posts which already covered this, Ill humor you instead.

The advantages, that Dreadnoughts possess are as you said, superior firepower and superior armor. Their disadvantages, are, less manueverability, larger target, and slower speed.

This is supposed to allow cruisers to have the advantage of, while having less firepower and armor, are more manueverable, are a smaller target, and are faster. In 1.5 it is evident that all these things are present and accounted for.

But dreadnoughts are still better. Because : they can overcome two of their disadvantages with something as simple as point jumping. Superior speed is no match for the 2.6k gu/sec jump that lands 100gu from your rear, and no manueverability lets you avoid weapons at that point blank range, neither does speed, neither does a smaller target. A cruiser or smaller ship would be forced to jump away, whereupon the whole cycle starts anew.

Of course, if this fleet combat, and other dreadnoughts were present, a second dreadnought could simply be directed to jump on top of the new jump-less target and give it a good thrashing. It likely wont kill it, but it would defnitely do more damage in that one alpha than the cruiser can return.

As stated, a dictor can combat this, but then dictors are energy consumers, and are forced to fly at reduced speed, therefore effecting their manueverability as well. It makes them much easier targets than regular cruisers, I myself didn't have a problem forcing a dictor to run in a Battle Dreadnought. I imagine a group of them could do it even better.

I've explained this over and over but it is also fruitless. People at once believe (and show!) that Dreadnoughts are superior but then turn around and say they aren't all that bad the moment anyone critisizes them. Again, I don't want them to be nerfed, but the fact is that while alone they are formidable, in numbers they are a force that more than likely upsets the balance intended by 1.5, as in every other version where Dreadnoughts happened to be in the majority. Hence the whole point of limiting their numbers...

If you still go deny, deny deny that cruisers in numbers are better, that Dreadnoughts in numbers isn't feasible, that people prefer to fly smaller ships, then I can't really offer any more factual, logical evidence than I already have. If you choose to believe that is distorted, well that is your view. But I agree, there is little point arguing further.

Release will argue more effectively than I. Whether wrong or right doesn't matter, I'm just offering a suggestion to a very real and possible danger, which, if not addressed if it does occur, will only result in the same stagnation that other versions have continually shown to happen when one class or ship has come to be seen as 'better' than the rest.

As an edit here, I want to also offer this point:

Ship classes are designed around being able to take on their own ship class right? They're only supposed to be marginally effective against lower and bigger classes of ships. I was suggesting with badges, just to limit the amount of dreadnoughts potentially in play.

But there are other solutions.

With other classes, there isnt as pronounced as a problem as there are with Dreadnoughts. They need to be strong, but they can't be too effective against smaller ships, because again, then using smaller ships is redundant if you dont have to.

But you can't make Dreadnoughts so weak that smaller ships can trump them without superior numbers. Otherwise dreadnoughts are redundant and most people wont touch them.

Thus you have to get a balance. And thats insanely hard. For dreadnoughts, I think the root problem, and the main reason why they can get over their disadvantages against smaller ships is because of the infamous point-jump.

There have been many suggestions as to how to address that. The main one I've heard, is randomizing manual jumps, but I also came up with one.

Simply, why not make it so that a if a ship will exit a jump within 200gu of another ship, it stops them 200gu away. That way, it doesn't allow a Dreadnought to get within 200gu of a ship instantly, which is its main engagement zone. Against smaller ships, it allows them plenty of room to utilize their speed and manueverability, preserving balance.

It doesn't hinder dreadnought to dreadnought combat, because closing the distance is very possible within a few seconds, so it keeps its role. Some food for thought.





-Ent









[ This Message was edited by: Enterprise on 2008-06-28 04:40 ]
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