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DarkSpace - Beta

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Forum Index » » Developer Feedback » » Ship Rarity, Badges, and You

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Ship Rarity, Badges, and You

Bardiche
Chief Marshal

Joined: November 16, 2006
Posts: 1247

Posted: 2008-06-26 10:59

Well it wouldn't be entirely fair. Some people got combat pres when it was easier to get, most people have more bombing pres now that it is easiest to get, and so forth. Making it ridiculously high only benefits the people who had an easier time getting prestige earlier, or who made use of flaws in the game's design.

The idea of raising badges appeals to me, though. Perhaps you can also just raise Gold requirements, as they are a bit low, as far as I'm concerned. I'd rather not a 10k goal be set, though, as I know many others that have difficulty reaching even 1k in combat/engineering. Personally, I think we should try out with 5k. Heck, maybe throw in a 10k badge for the Assault-class Dreadnoughts, though they are more of a niche ship in 1.500 than Always Relevant ships.
I say 5k because 8.6k (my current amount) was hard enough to get when fighting mostly Dread VS Dread, and I often challenged the Luth who give hull fast as heck. (as well as delicious AI Dreads)
I don't wnat to think of newcomers as being forced to get that high with nothing but Cruisers at their disposal, under quite likely less than favorable conditions.
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral

Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059

Posted: 2008-06-26 11:01

It's hard to get combat prestige this damage because only hull gives combat prestige. you know that.
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal

Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada

Posted: 2008-06-26 11:10

Quote:

On 2008-06-26 10:59, Bardiche wrote:
Well it wouldn't be entirely fair. Some people got combat pres when it was easier to get, most people have more bombing pres now that it is easiest to get, and so forth. Making it ridiculously high only benefits the people who had an easier time getting prestige earlier, or who made use of flaws in the game's design.

The idea of raising badges appeals to me, though. Perhaps you can also just raise Gold requirements, as they are a bit low, as far as I'm concerned. I'd rather not a 10k goal be set, though, as I know many others that have difficulty reaching even 1k in combat/engineering. Personally, I think we should try out with 5k. Heck, maybe throw in a 10k badge for the Assault-class Dreadnoughts, though they are more of a niche ship in 1.500 than Always Relevant ships.
I say 5k because 8.6k (my current amount) was hard enough to get when fighting mostly Dread VS Dread, and I often challenged the Luth who give hull fast as heck. (as well as delicious AI Dreads)
I don't wnat to think of newcomers as being forced to get that high with nothing but Cruisers at their disposal, under quite likely less than favorable conditions.

Totally plausable statements. Yes, there are those who have abused various 'advantages' in present and past versions to gain alot of prestige (and the stats that go with it) but as they were allowed to happen, they are perfectly legit, and its also good to remember that not everyone took advantage.

Also, don't get stuck in the 1.483 mindset. I'm basing stat requirements around what will be not what is. I also want to point out that working hard for something is a part of all online MMOs, and it is something that is lacking in this specific area where the jump from okay ships goes straight to omgbbq ships in a very short stretch. This isn't much of a chellenge, and essentially promotes the likely DreadSpace scenario.

For those who might not understand why thats a bad thing, just remember that Darkspace is built around teamwork, not spacebar mashing. Every ship is supposed to have a role its good at, rather than one ship being better than the rest. The Dreadnoughts, seemingly exempt from this staple rule, make that a bit of problem in a realistic setting, limiting them seems the best option currently of sticking to the 1.5 balance forumla without redoing everything.

Sure itll cost alot of players their 'uber' ships but to be honest a Darkspace with only Dreadnoughts flying around sounds unappealing to me, what about you?

Also on a side note : Rob, that idea sounds interesting to me...

-Ent
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Deltabacon
Fleet Admiral

Joined: August 17, 2007
Posts: 395
From: Liverpool, Great Britain

Posted: 2008-06-26 11:13

simple, give dreads chronic power shortages so they can only do one alpha
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YIIMM
Grand Admiral

Joined: June 16, 2005
Posts: 851
From: Barcino, Hispania Tarraconensis

Posted: 2008-06-26 11:18

We could simply reduce the relative power gap between classes, the point of beta has always been for people to test setups and get a good game as a result, with the holy grail of "balance" being one of the goals along the way.

Redoing the layouts or tweaking the weapons/armour stats in ships would take time, but then again it's been done with near enough every new release, and reorganising the badge structure hasn't.
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal

Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada

Posted: 2008-06-26 11:27

Quote:

On 2008-06-26 11:18, YIIMM wrote:
We could simply reduce the relative power gap between classes, the point of beta has always been for people to test setups and get a good game as a result, with the holy grail of "balance" being one of the goals along the way.

Redoing the layouts or tweaking the weapons/armour stats in ships would take time, but then again it's been done with near enough every new release, and reorganising the badge structure hasn't.

Reducing the power gap, as far as my own thinking goes, can only be done by reverting to the older philosphy of how setups were dont (all gadgets the same, larger ships just have more of them), in other words, removing levels.

But, again, we've already been told we aren't going back to old days, and besides, I doubt that Drafell or Jack would be too keen on erasing the level system from the game. Again, it would also take a monumental amount of time and effort at this late stage it just doesnt seem feasible.

Tweaking the armor stats and weapon values and the layouts could possibly solve the issue but it seems doubtful. Levels give bigger ships an inherant advantage. Smaller ships simply cannot do enough damage to higher level armor compared to their lower level weapons. Adding more weapons just throws the system more out of wack, and in the end, we have to remember that 1.5 is designed around the 2 Cruisers = 1 Dreadnought ideal, which will not work as long as Dreadnoughts are in abundance. And that is inevitable as it stands.

You can add massive prestige loss, but then it makes using them not worth the effort. You can make them cost unbelievable amounts of resources, but resources are already pretty well in abundance. You can add hard limits, but I've already been through that with Sard, and I am not convinced that is a good way to either.

-Ent
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CrashDown
Cadet

Joined: May 29, 2007
Posts: 63
From: Estonia

Posted: 2008-06-26 11:49

badge etc requirements are fine imo, especially considering that you cant actually get gold combat or gold supply at all in this version since you come into the MV and you see exactly 1 person on your team and that your littel supply ship.

specialization etc are only feasible in a game like eve which has 10k + online at one time.
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral

Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059

Posted: 2008-06-26 13:49

Quote:

On 2008-06-26 11:49, CrashDown wrote:
badge etc requirements are fine imo, especially considering that you cant actually get gold combat or gold supply at all in this version since you come into the MV and you see exactly 1 person on your team and that your littel supply ship.

Two AM != good time to play.

Quote:

specialization etc are only feasible in a game like eve which has 10k + online at one time.

Specialization is feasable anywhere. Being specialized in a field doesn't mean you cannot do other things (you just cannot do other things as well)

Look at my post. I only removed tier 2 building/supply ships in my example. You can still build/supply - you just can't do it as well as everybody else.
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Deltabacon
Fleet Admiral

Joined: August 17, 2007
Posts: 395
From: Liverpool, Great Britain

Posted: 2008-06-26 14:52

rob thats a stupid idea, why limit yourself in this game when you know you will miss out on other features?
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Coeus {NCX-Charger}
Admiral, I can't read,
Sundered Weimeriners

Joined: February 16, 2004
Posts: 3635
From: South Philly

Posted: 2008-06-26 15:48

Ok, what brilliant suggestion do YOU have to keep people LIKE you from being utterly trounced by dread fleets out there that warrants you blatently and immaturely insulting the other members suggestions like that? You're the one that they're trying to help...

And no, it doesn't limit your options, not if it is done right. I've no doubt in my mind that the devs aren't ignorant enough to let you spec in something without a way to change back.
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Darkspace: Twilight

Fattierob
Vice Admiral

Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059

Posted: 2008-06-26 16:12

Quote:

On 2008-06-26 14:52, Deltaflyer *OPS* wrote:
rob thats a stupid idea, why limit yourself in this game when you know you will miss out on other features?

I guess you complain about class based systems, too? "Hurr, Why can't I heal when I'm this guy with a sword, thats limiting"
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Ospolos
Grand Admiral

Joined: January 31, 2004
Posts: 567
From: ON, CANADA

Posted: 2008-06-26 16:14

Enforcing specialization isn't the way to go. Due to players grabbing whatever is needed at the time and in different situations. I think it would break apart the game, mainly because of the lack of playerbase. Besides, players already specialize themselves, for example:

-Bob Doe likes to run around in a supply ship, his profile shows 10x more supply prestige than anything else, Bob would hardly ever grab a dread anyway even though he could use it.

-- RE: Original Topic

If its that bad we just have to either gimp Dreads manoverability, prestige, or the tracking/speeds of their weapons abit more.

We haven't even had a real test situation yet have we? In a real situation I am pretty sure cruisers will target (majority of them) the same dread to put it down fast. Again has anyone thoroughly tested Range + Speeds + Manoverability + weaving around other dreads in a decent combat situation seriously?

Currently it just looks like speculations, We need alot more testers in at the same time, on an organized time table to try it, AI and 3 vs 2's wont do it. Also, can't the game (Release) be patched later on with the new GCQL so that over time it could passively be tested with an actual playing playerbase?

Only problem I agree with would be point jumping, If weapons could be disabled for 3-5 seconds after jumping it would give the enemies who are aware of it time to turn/jump/target. Or randomize abit the end jump point by a few 100 GUs.
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Honoured,
Osp

Bardiche
Chief Marshal

Joined: November 16, 2006
Posts: 1247

Posted: 2008-06-26 17:11

I think the entire removing manuevrability/weapons from a Dread idea is stupid.

We don't want everyone to fly Dreads, so we make Dreads less powerful and generate another 1.483 situation where flying Dreads IZ NOT GUD?
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal

Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada

Posted: 2008-06-26 17:14

Quote:[/small]

-- RE: Original Topic

If its that bad we just have to either gimp Dreads manoverability, prestige, or the tracking/speeds of their weapons abit more.

We haven't even had a real test situation yet have we? In a real situation I am pretty sure cruisers will target (majority of them) the same dread to put it down fast. Again has anyone thoroughly tested Range + Speeds + Manoverability + weaving around other dreads in a decent combat situation seriously?

Currently it just looks like speculations, We need alot more testers in at the same time, on an organized time table to try it, AI and 3 vs 2's wont do it. Also, can't the game (Release) be patched later on with the new GCQL so that over time it could passively be tested with an actual playing playerbase?

Only problem I agree with would be point jumping, If weapons could be disabled for 3-5 seconds after jumping it would give the enemies who are aware of it time to turn/jump/target. Or randomize abit the end jump point by a few 100 GUs.

What you think I just pulled it out of my behind out of nothing? Go on, get in a couple dreadnoughts in Beta and try and tell me that you do not totally trounce everything. Its already there, its already been proven, to me at least, in the many times I've been there since the layouts have been done and done.

Part of it is speculation of what will happen, this is mostly emphasizing past experience where one particular class/ship/role become more powerful than the others. Its certainly happened enough times in the past to repeat itself again predictably. Even basing it on theories of how 1.5 should work immediately can be pointed to how balance is supposed to work. Knowing how balance is supposed to work, and knowing how human behavior has run its course through the time I've been here.. well its not hard to put two and two together.

Of course, it can be easily dismissed as assumption. There hasnt been massive testing, we dont know this will happen for sure, and hey you never know, Darkspace could suddenly turn into a community that all doesnt like to fly the most powerful ships and instead decides to fly in ships the preserve balance without anything to hold them back from constantly jumping to something which, in groups, is better in theory and in practice than anything else.

...yeah right.

If its really neccessary to obliterate any lingering doubts about how incredibly better Dreadnoughts are over everything else by releasing 1.5, thats alright by me, but I wouldn't have bothered to offer the suggestion in the first place had I not seriously considered the alternatives. Again, 1.5 seems like a version based around large groups of smaller ships working together, but all its going to do is a ersion based around large groups of larger ships working together. If thats fine with everyone, then this whole thread is pointless.

I was working under the assumption people liked diversity and roles in DS..

I will not reiterate more points; I've already stated logically before why this is a valid assumption to make. Protip : Making very strong ships easy to use and easy to get makes them the likely ships to use on the battlefield.

I think that its already evidence enough that they wont be made harder to use (given the reaction to even the slightest general suggestion that they be nerfed), I opt for the lesser evil.

But if you still want Dreadnoughts easy to get, in great numbers in the MV, with new players likely being beaten down until they can get one themselves (aka staying in non-combat roles), and you are comfortable with sides constantly escalating into who can bring the most superior firepower to the field, then this suggestion is not for you.

-Ent

[ This Message was edited by: Enterprise on 2008-06-26 17:31 ]
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CrashDown
Cadet

Joined: May 29, 2007
Posts: 63
From: Estonia

Posted: 2008-06-26 17:40

5.4.5 Dreadnought
The dreadnought is the embodiment of power in DarkSpace. The massive racks of weapons on these ships strike fear into the enemy. The powerful generators on the dreadnought class ships allow for far more powerful beam weapons to be mounted than on lesser ships. Most dreadnoughts have at least one fighter bay, allowing a small measure of long-range power. While the dreadnought is powerful, a group of smaller ships working together can remain out of its effective range and emerge victorious.

Get skill and quit whining about dreadspace.
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