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Small Ships and Big Ships |
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Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
|  Posted: 2005-08-26 07:46
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On 2005-08-26 02:10, Diabo|ik wrote:
I never tried to do that myself in this build, to stand still and fight... I can also do what you did, with the standard beam layout, but I end up with an empty energy reserve which should NEVER happen while flying a K'luth ship...
I still think the Manadible's possible alternative of using p-cannons can't "fix" the problem in itself.
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wth...
Kluth ARE meant to have low energy reserves, have you completly forgotten how the kluth were originaly?!
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Arcanum {C?}
Cadet
Joined: June 25, 2005
Posts: 222
| Posted: 2005-08-26 08:46
Jack - You forget, however, that other changes have been made to the K'luth since their original implementation which make it impractical to compare their current iteration to past iterations on individual line items, such as energy consumption.
Enterprise - Back to the discussion about weapons. I personally believe that fighters are currently poorly implemented. They deliver their weapons load, and then they die. Why not have more damaging fighters which are able to stay in battle for at least half as long as the ship from which it was launched, and which are more resistant to point defense? To balance this, one merely has to reduce the number of fighters which can be launched from a ship, and have 2 to a fighter bay, as opposed to 5. This also has the additional effect of reducing fighter lag.
Interceptor fighters should be defense-based fighters. They should be coded to intercept incoming projectiles and fighters which could damage the ship from which they were launched. Right now, interceptor class fighters are rather useless.
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Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2005-08-26 10:50
A beam mandy still does more damage than any other ship in the game. And the Siphon can fire the SI whilst recharging its energy, energy problems?
I think not...
Perhaps on the smaller ships, but you shouldnt leveling up the smaller ships to maximum level.
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Arcanum {C?}
Cadet
Joined: June 25, 2005
Posts: 222
| Posted: 2005-08-26 12:11
First of all, beam-based Mandibles do NOT do the most damage in the game. Not with standard armour, and certainly not with reflective armour.
Second of all, I reiterate once again that on-impact damage has little relevance, given the fact that other ships' damage over time FAR exceed that of a beam-based Mandible by a factor of 2 or 3. And since K'luth dreadnoughts are slow, and easily beaconed, the hit-and-run tactic prescribed by most people as a stock response to K'luth problems does not work. Keep in mind the short range of beams, which makes beaconing even easier.
And let us assume that we take this supposedly lethal beam-based Mandible. And we successfully avoid all beacons through some miraculous coincidence or through superhuman piloting. If K'luth ships have the energy drain that some people would like to see, what energy is there left to cloak with? You cannot possibly gain energy after a single beam alpha strike while cloaked. Regardless of reactor and engine configuration.
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Taking this argument to its logical conclusion, why not make K'luth ships based on short-range beams, but ensure that there are ways to mitigate their (already weak) signature weapon (i.e. disruptors) with such items as reflective armour, make their cloak feature completely non-functional, through beacons, ECCM pinging, distinctive engine noise, and lack of energy to properly engage cloak during or after combat, and then go around proclaiming that K'luth pilots are ignorant because they are not using proper hit-and-run tactics to compensate for their weak armour?
Oh wait. That seems to be the reality that the K'luth are living right now.
Seems more honest if we all admitted that K'luth should exist only as easy combat prestige farms for human factions.
[ This Message was edited by: Arcanum {C?} on 2005-08-26 12:50 ]
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Lawman
Fleet Admiral
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: February 28, 2003
Posts: 276
From: New Jersey
| Posted: 2005-08-26 13:09
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On 2005-08-20 14:41, The Irish Crim {Oi?} wrote:
Not gonna make this long..
A) The EAD IS ment to be the one ship, that stikes bloody fear in the enemy..does it? No..It merely means " OMG! Its an EAD! Free Pres!", pretty much its the same thing stations where in .482..Floating pres chunks.
B) I feel dreads should have 1-2 escorts, just because smaller ships may pop up, along with another dread..Its simple tactics, use the smaller ships to distract the smaller ones, as the two giants go at it.
C) A dread IS supposed to be able to kill a dessie,frigate and so on, but it cant this version, it can merely attempt to hit it. So, in the next patch, I feel with the new modding system, this will all be fixed..The Ships cant upgrade, and it'll help the balance in battle.
D) In .484, I think the battles should be like this
Dread against Dread, Dread against two cruisers, Dread against four dessies, Dread against eight frigates
Cruiser againts Cruiser, Cruiser against two Dessies, Cruiser against four frigates
Dessie against Dessie, Dessie against two Frigates
Frigates against Frigates
And, scouts used as Scouts, to go to gates, and check for enemy ships..
This may not make sense to you, I realy dont care..but, with each ship class balanced, able to fight one another with the upperclass able to win, it'd be balanced..If your a lone cruiser, and you see, say..a Battle Dread. You'd know you cant handle it on your own, so you call in another cruiser, thus making it a fair fight..So on and So on..
ps. Nice charts ramius, I'll be sure to steal them later, copywrite it, and sell them to faust for the money
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The part about scouts and frigates is incorrect...
Frigates going at it with two corvettes
Corvettes are also useful to field en masse...
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whateverr
Cadet
Joined: May 13, 2004
Posts: 173
| Posted: 2005-09-03 00:51
wow... what a long thread of the same repeated things over and over
well i'll tell you what i think... because i can, and because i, for no better reason but boredom and curiosity, read the thread almost completely.
trying not to forget that this game pivots on rapid firing by spacebar hitting and aim based for most weapons on line of site on a 2d plane with instant locking or no locking depending on how you look at it, i've decided on what should be considered.
first of all ships are limited entirely by the weapons they carry, and all ships in a faction can carry the same weapons for the most part, save for special slot weapons. the only differance between ships in each faction, ships in one faction not comparing differant factions, is quantity of bays and lvls able to be obtained for the weapons.
that is the root of the problem here, lvling a weapon only changes the weapons damage ability and quantity on hand and there is not enough diversity or options per weapon class per faction.
let me explain, the torp a destroyer fires is the exact same torp a dread fires except the dread has the ability to have a greater payload than the destroyer at a cost of less quantity.
my suggestions:
projectile weapons
Torp I- lowest payload, shortest range, fastest tracking, largest quantity per bay
(mountable on all ship classes, balanced by amount of bays on each ship, effective on small ship classes)
Torp II- medium payload, medium range, medium tracking, medium quantity per bay
(mountable on all ship classes, balanced by bays per ship, effective on the medium sized ships)
Torp III- largest payload, longest range, slow tracking, small quantity per bay
(mountable all ship classes balanced by bays per ship, effective on large slow ships)
Capital Torp- largest payload, furthest range, slowest tracking, smallest quantity per bay
(mountable on flag ships aka elite dreads effective on elite dreads and stations)
these torps are per faction and come in the Fusion/AM/ P variety, lvling up these torps would increase attributes by percent i.e. 2%payload 2%range 2%tracking per lvl, maybe even a 1% to quantity and max lvl able to be achieved limits per ship class could remain intact
Missiles
same as above with torps 3 types with attribute of flight speed, flight time, and payload
lvling would increase 2 or all 3 of the attributes by percent per lvl with a max lvl able to be achieved per ship class
what does this do for game play? first it allows a player to mod according to the expected enemy or enemy they will attempt to destroy in battle, this would allow a dread to solo a fleet of destroyers provided he/she modded the smaller weapon ... also the smaller weapon has the smallest payload and range so the dread still isn't uber to the destroyers if they maintain distance, but the dread can hit them and that balances the issue, also a completely lvled destroyer with large weapon can damage the dread but they have a max lvl ability and less bays to fire from still requireing more than one destroyer to complete the task, not to mention modded as such the destroyer would be rendered useless if smaller ships arrived with small weapons to aid the dread
laser/disruptor type weapons i'm unclear about, they don't seem to miss provided you're in range and noone flies in your way, i think they are currently strongest ones shortest range so i have no suggestion on them unless they are bugged in which case fix them?
as of currently it would seem that the 2 sides of this topic have either said a dread should own all or only be effective on dreads and stations... that wouldn't make sense in a game and wouldn't be fair to the pilot that spend a yr getting a dread, basically a dread would have no place in a battle where no dread or station was present on the enemy front.. and we all know how hard it is to get a ship to a battle across the map and then realize you can't use your ship so you go and get another ship? why not just change the weapons? i can understand that if you spent a yr getting a dread that you'd expect to fly it and would enjoy flying it if all you needed to do was mod and lvl a combination of weapon sizes or all of one size weapon to be effective.
Stations and Flagship dreads
stations imo should be support oriented heavily armored/hulled with repair mods, long range ECCM to light up ships, build and rely on large amounts of fighters, or to save from lag strongest fighters for stations only, able to take a few rounds from a ships PD as offensive and large amount of PD lasers only strong enough to take regular fighters and bombs for defensive... since now there are flagship dreads no station needs to play the role of combat ship with torps and the like, flagship dreads should be able to mount all of the weapon sizes i named above, play no support or building role and be the combat ship of the ppl that earned that rank from long nights staring at the screen and hitting space/arrow keys ... and the only way to take a station aside from having awhile to work at it and a sizable fleet should be with capital sized weapons, the ones only mountable by flagship dreads, and one on one, the station with it's fighters vs a flagship dread with it's capital weapons should be even, hull/armor of station and damage ability of fighters over time.. and taking a flagship dread wouldn't be easy either without a couple of regular dreads or even more of the lower ships, and the flagship dread wouldn't be helpless as they can mount whatever they want to combat the ships they feel need to be fought
that IMO would be BALANCE
P.S. Lark and Ent... neither of you win because frankly you were both saying the same thing in differant opinionated ways and are too stubborn to realize it, and because i'm older i have automatic seniority so i win... and don't argue with your elders 
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