| Author |
Small Ships and Big Ships |
BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
|  Posted: 2005-08-21 08:44
Did I say godlike?
Im getting words put in my mouth every post it seems...
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Coeus {NCX-Charger}
Admiral, I can't read,
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: February 16, 2004
Posts: 3635
From: South Philly
| Posted: 2005-08-21 08:47
ROFL! WoW & player skill... thats almost funny...
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Darkspace: Twilight
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2005-08-21 09:44
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On 2005-08-21 08:39, Arcanum {C?} wrote:
@Backslash - Even in MMORPGs, there is a limit to what you can obtain. Even in WOW, once you get your purple set, granted, there are other things to do, but you cannot get better equipment forever, otherwise you would get god-like characters. So most players start spending time honing their playing skills.
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Why is it, through this entire section, are people compareing this to other games.
I think I already stated quite clearly once that Darkspace is not any other game correct? That should mean DS is not WoW, or WWII simulators (or even it itself), neither is is an FPS or any some such as the following.
Now, Arc, your bring up an important point, that all ships are only as good as you fly them. This is completely true, until the ship cannot be used in a manner which makes it able to be good.
All the skill in the world, for example, would never allow a scout to be able to kill a Dreadnought that was not AFK, in the middile of space, for an hour.
Does that mean we should buff up scout to be able to take on Dreadnoughts? No...mostly because scouts are for one purpose - to scout.
Backslash has actually proven a point far more important in a game, far more important than realisim or "what should be". Far beyond being a vet, or skilled or whatever you can think a game is meant for.
His point is, bigger should be better, not invincible, but better. I think the point you all miss is this : there are alot of people here, who have played well over years. They have played more than their fair share of time, they have flown most every ship for the deal.
By this time, most of those people have the abilitys and the expertise to be able, if they choose to, to fly any ship with some form of skill enough. So yes, we can fly a cruiser, or a dessy for the rest of our days, but you know, some of us don't like cruisers or dessys. Take into account now an attribute in a game which has been overlooked here - preferences.
It is an attribute in a game which indeed is important; its what we prefer to use. In a game like Darkspace, it is very easy to balence it out, by a single form of any ship is as good as you fly it approach. This means making every class able to have some form of influence on the other.
Such influences are...
- Scout - Influences every class with tracking/detecting abilities.
- Frigate - Influences every class with light anti-frigate/dessy weapons.
- Destroyer - Influences every class with direct support.
- Cruiser - Influences every class with a balence of offensive/supportive abilities.
- Dreadnoughts - Influences every class with a purely offensive manner.
This is how it should be. This would, in every situation, give a Dreadnought the advantage because it is an offensive ship.
However, the clincher with the Dreadnought, unlike every other class, is this.
A Dreadnought, should not be a mash the spacebar deal. It should not be a free-ticket to prestige. The only thing it should be, is capable of being able to take quite a bit of fire. Capable of destroying any ship that strayed too close.
By capable, this gives Dreadnoughts, such as the assault dreadnoughts, the capibility to be feared.
I keep saying that don't I? Mostly because im trying to reinforce it. Jack is indeed a skilled player, and hence, when it comes to Dreadnoughts, he is unmatched not because the Dreadnought is powerful but because he knows how to use it.
Lets take the EAD from 1.482 for example.
The EAD from 1.482 was by and large, considered the greatest ship in the entire UGTO fleet.
It was great, but the thing with the EAD of then was that it took more than just a jump and a mash of the spacebar - one mistake and an EAD quickly became the worst ship in the entire UGTO fleet.
The EAD came with alot of energy - it could be flown like a dessie for people who knew how to, it was powerful for those people who new how to engage with one, it was a wonderful energy consumption by those who knew how to balence their weapon useage.
But people became so good with the EAD, that it was nerfed.
So I think the fact here is simple. Jack has been attempting to explain a point which unfortunately all of you seem to have missed : He wants Dreadnoughts to have the armor, the weapons, and the energy, that would make a Dreadnought capable, or I shall say, more than capable of destroying any ship that strayed too close, and able to defend itself against most small fire.
Meaning, making Dreadnoughts only as good as you fly them - now is not the case why?
Dreadnoughts now can easily be compared to the scout example.
Lets take the EAD then, from 1.483.
Its loadout:
- 4 Drives.
- 1 Tach Drive.
- 3 Special I Slots.
- 1 Special II Slot.
- 12 Standard Slots.
- 7 Standard Launcher Slots.
- 5 Heavy Beam Slots.
- 2 Fighters.
- 8 Armor Slots.
- 1 QST.
From this point of view, this seems like a pretty capable vessel right? Wrong.
This is going to be my example for all dreadnoughts - it may not be accurate for all of them, but they all bear a close resemblance to these faults.
Fault - 1.
Lack of Energy - The Special I slots can be equipped with Auxillary Generators, all three to level 2. At any speed - including standstill - the use of all weapons minus the QST, severely drains this ship, making the UGTO trademark of longevity in battle invalid.
Solution - Move the generator to its own slot - increase its max level to ten.
Fault - 2
Poor weapon arcs - 4 of the slots on the EAD are rear facing. This alone baffles me, as the EAD is a pure fore ship - any rear arc weapon immediately defys the design of the assault ship, reducing the total firepower it can bring to bear considerably.
Solution - Make the EAD 100% Fore, 50% of them Fore/Left. another 50% Fore/Right.
Fault - 3
Poor weapons loadout - A special II slot was wasted here, as they should only be present on tacticically favorable ships such as cruisers. Two fighters placed are are in addition wasted, as they lack the power to do considerable damage, and also pointless on a close range ship.
Solution - Remove these slots - replace them with more weapon slots.
Fault - 4
Poor weapons damage - HCLs lack the signature power of a close range ship, any weapon excluding the regular CL deals more damage, so currently, it only serves as an energy drain for the ship (5 HCLs drain ALOT, all of you people out there who yell its okay as it is)
For an example of the HCLs poor damage, at point blank range (50gu), 5 max level HCLs on an EAD struck a destroyer dead in the aft for a ghastly -2% shield damage.
Solution - Increase the firepower dealt by the HCL at close range.
Fault - 5
Lack of Firepower - This coencides with fault 4, as there really are not enough weapons. This can be best proved by the BD with its 21 cannons, can deal more damage over time than any other assault ship in the game
Solution - Add a few not many more weapons. (such as 2 more Standard Weapon/Launcher/Beam Slots.
Fault 6
Lack of filling its Role - An EAD is an assault ship, strictly designed for very close range combat, the QST being a finisher weapon if the target is running. The EAD however, is only good now with its 10 cannons which are long range Shouldn't it be strictly Torpedos and Beams? Or Just a pure Beam ship?
Solution - Return the EAD to a close-combat role once more.
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Of course, this is only an example. Other dreads have their own specific faults as well.
As you can see, the EAD is not bad because Jack or any of us refuse to adapt and havent found a way to make it great - the hard truth we found, is that the EAD in its own right, isn't capable of dealing the damage neccessary.
This is the thing avid Dread users are constantly argueing - you all just don't see this.
Does making it capable stimulate imbalence - no, it only does when its no longer just capable but a standard.
From the above listings, one might try to believe that im asking for a ship with infinate energy, godly arcs, and super-powerful weapons. Of course, this is an assumption made by those who want Darkspace to restricted to only Dessies and Cruisers. Many miss the point thats being tossed around.
The thing, I keep trying to impress in everyone, is that every ship should be capable, even the Dreadnoughts. They should all require skill.
For a Dreadnought that is capable, it would make it capable of destroying any ship - but its only capable. It can't instantly press a button and every ship dies no, you have to use it right to be able to.
Should a Cruiser be capable of destroying a Dreadnought? One may argue yes - its only fair. However I can't agree. A lone cruiser, no. Two Cruisers, more than likely. The reason - The Cruiser should be made only capable of damage a Dreadnought, many cruisers would change that damage into killing it.
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Im not quite done yet though.
There is one final argument to be made on the behalf of Dreadnoughts.
I don't know about anyone else here, this is probably personal opinon, but here it counts for much more than a hard fact.
When you play Darkspace, you play to gain prestige, rank, and badges, and while doing so, having immense fun.
It is therein realized, that many newbs aspire for the larger ships - the Dreadnoughts. The come to realize quickly however, that gaining the rank and badges for it is not worth it - mostly because, other ships are better.
For those of us of other patches, Dreadnoughts were worth it if you new how to fly it, and knowing how to fly it took time to do. Cruisers then, were also good, if you knew how to fly it. Even dessies.
My preference is the Dreadnought - it has been since the day I've flown one. Dreadnoughts are the kind of class im skilled with, however, many people see blindly - they favor their own, they decide not to consier other classes, convinced theirs should be the best.
Because of such ideas, Dreadnoughts invariably or intentionally, were made weak enough against smaller ships so that they could be solo'ed.
Am I one of those people? I can say no for one simple absolute fact.
For every game you ever played in your life - the farther you advanced, the better things you had access to.
In an RPG game, would you go for that level 100+ character which would take months to get to, when someone of level 20 could beat you just by hitting you?
In a FPS, would you get a Sub machine gun if the Pistol was better than it?
In a RTS, would you build a Cruiser, if an infantryman could destroy it?
You see my point - you advance to get better ships. Such ships such like the EAD are placed very high - Fleet Admiral. For people like me who have worked well over 2 years for the rank they have, they hope that the ship they gain access to has the capibility that with their experience as up to that point, will allow them to establish space superiority.
Their hopes fall short when they fly one - such as cruisers and destroyers can make such simple ease of assault ships, and dreadnoughts, because they can exploit its weakness way too effectively - as is exemplified with one cruiser able to quickly take out a Dreadnought, or even a dessy being able to too.
I know this is a long post - however I have constantly tried to keep my eyes open for all classes but since no one else will, I will defend the one everyone so tirelessly is trying to keep weaker than the rest.
I kept my level head in this, and I made my ideas clear about how Cruisers and Destroyers function in a battle - the Dreadnought I did not go into because of something like this.
So I have - you have my point. Dreadnoughts suck, because they lack the capibility to defend themselves from even one ship.
-Ent
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Coharie
Admiral
Joined: October 26, 2004
Posts: 59
From: Fayetteville, North Carolina
| Posted: 2005-08-21 10:00
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Dreads shouldnt need an escort full stop. They are the behmoths of any fleet and the drive power behind anything, or should be.
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What could be more obvious than this? Battleships, the naval equivalent of dreadnoughts, regularly set sail alone in World War II, unaccompanied and unescorted by vast fleets of supply ships, frigates, destroyers, cruisers, and carriers.
I disagree with this, the only time a battleship was sent out without support was to raid shipping lanes or undefended ports & this only happened 6 or 7 times during the course of WWII, battleships were most likely to have escort vessels for screening from sub & air attacks, I do however agree that dreads should'nt be able to be taken out by smaller ships, but they should be able to suffer some amount of heavy damage from the smaller ships in numbers of course, this requiring escort vessels to defend againest such attacks.
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Frigates and destroyers are NOT the drive of a fleet, they are usefull for taking on the smaller ships because the larger ships cant fly fast enough to hit the smaller ones. Thats the only reason. If a smaller ship comes within range of a larger one, then it deserves to die.
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This is a very interesting analysis. Especially since history records that in World War II, the Battleship Bismarck, which, at the time, was the ship with the:
A) Longest range
B) Most power
C) Most armour
on the face of the planet, was actually sunk by a behemoth battleship called the NSS Executioner (check aforementioned game balance expert's signature), and not by British warships much smaller and more maneuverable than the goliath Bismarck.
Here you are dead wrong:
Quote:
Almost two hours had elapsed since the battle had begun, and the Bismarck had shown a formidable capacity of resistance. The British first struck Bismarck at 0902, and ceased fire around 1016. For 74 minutes, the Bismarck received a continuous hammering that no other warship could have taken. We need not forget that the Hood sank six minutes after the first German shells were fired only three days earlier. Moreover, neither the main belt nor the armour deck were seen to be penetrated during the combat, and in the end it was her own crew who scuttled the ship. During this last engagement 2,876 shells were fired at the Bismarck. They are itemised as follows:
380 of 40.6 cm from Rodney
339 of 35.6 cm from King George V
527 of 20.3 cm from Norfolk
254 of 20.3 cm from Dorsetshire
716 of 15.2 cm from Rodney
660 of 13.3 cm from King George V
I don't see the ship you listed here (NSS Executioner)
This concludes our naval history for the day 
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c0ld
Midshipman
Joined: June 24, 2003
Posts: 342
From: UK
| Posted: 2005-08-21 10:03
All of that sounds fine, Ent. So the EAD needs tweaking abit, fine. But that is not what Backslash has been gunning for, as you claim. He wants an almost indestructible EAD.
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Dread > own all
End of. Shouldnt be any other way. If you dont want to get owned by one, dont go against it.
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Dreads shouldnt need an escort full stop.
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No cruiser can take a dread alone. Or should be able too rather.
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It shouldnt even need to worry about destroyers unless they come in packs of 4.
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[ This Message was edited by: c0ldfury on 2005-08-21 10:38 ]
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2005-08-21 10:42
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On 2005-08-21 10:03, c0ldfury wrote:
All of that sounds fine, Ent. So the EAD needs tweaking abit, fine. But that is not what Backslash has been gunning for, as you claim. He wants an almost indestructible EAD.
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I think thats putting words into his mouth, tbh.
In addition - not just the EAD. Every Dreadnought needs its own little tweaks to be effective in their roles.
-Ent
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shadey
Cadet
Joined: November 13, 2004
Posts: 40
| Posted: 2005-08-21 11:42
Ent i do respect you for actually trying to luthships to see about balance, but m8 you got to really read backys posts. he seems to think that haveing a dread should nake up for ones lack of piloting skills. this makes no sense. yes dreads should be powerfull and intimidating, but should they own all? yes if the twopilotsare equal. but i do believe that a lone cruiser should beable to destroy a dread if the cruiser pilot is superior, but backys posts all suggest he feels different. yes players need to be rewarded, but to beable to own all just because you have rank. Are you people realy that doubting in your skills? perhaps i should just use the old failsafe human answer. use proper dread tactics.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2005-08-21 11:54
Yet again...words in my mouth...
Sigh...
Cold, those were from different posts, all aimed at different things and subjects.
Your all just putting words in my mouth..
Someone who gets a dread, shoudl be skilled enough in the game. The dread shouldnt NEED to compensate on the pilots skill ATALL because they are already skilled enough to pilot one (makes sense when you use your brain doesnt it?).
Im thinking about the GAME and business in general, if dreads arnt worth two monkeys because a just as good cruiser pilot can take on a dread easily every time and win just because the dread is slower, no one will want to fly them, and the feeling of having a reward goes down the drain.
People want a reward to play the game, they want to feel like gaining ranks MEANS something, not gaining a piece of crap draed that can be owned by a cruiser that you get 4-6 ranks below.
Now, if you'd kindly stop saying "JACK MEANS THIS" "JACK MEANS THAT"...I know what I mean, and I just said it above.
[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash *Jack* on 2005-08-21 11:57 ]
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2005-08-21 12:01
the bismark:
the hood was the biggest battleship in the entire british fleet, fyi. it sunk in 6 minutes, yes, because the bismark landed a shot right on the waterline within the opening shots of the fight.
when the fleet of british destroyers surrounded the bismark, they were out for revenge, not to sink the boat. they wanted to cause a lot of pain. not a single british shipped aimed for the bismarks waterline, they aimed for its deck.
now, returning to DS.
choosing the right tool for the job. thats pretty much all there is to it. the dreadnaught can not do everything. it shouldnt be able to do everything. its not the be all end all of ships. it is part of the machine that is your fleet, it serves the purpose of being an immense amount of firepower per player, that when protected enough to stay alive, can be brought to bear to destroy enemy vessels faster then a dessie can.
an assault dessie, while good, will not kill a missile dread as easily as an EAD or BD could.
an EAD or BD, could not take on an entire line of missile dreads on its own, it would need an escort of destroyers to keep the other MDs and their escorts busy while it did its work.
its tactics, its strategy, its fun. its a lot more fun then having a ship that can singlehandedly destroy fleets of anything it like. thats called an imbalance, like the torp MD.
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Don't play with fire, play with Larky.
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Arcanum {C?}
Cadet
Joined: June 25, 2005
Posts: 222
| Posted: 2005-08-21 12:12
Jack - Many people are using words which you yourself have said. People are quoting you.
I think the problem lies in the fact that you have a, shall we say...history...of being biased towards the UGTO. Let's not deny reality. And it's not wrong to love your own faction.
But when this love comes to the utter detriment of another faction, there IS a problem. And I'm NOT saying that your suggestion about rebalancing the EAD is wrong! Far from it - I SUPPORT this motion.
Realize this, Jack. Other people are sensitive when you ask for only your EAD to be the end all (fullstop) of battle. Had you phrased your request like this: "I think the EAD requires much rebalancing, while also ACKNOWLEDGING that other factions' ships require balancing as well, to different degrees...", I think people would be much more receptive to your posts.
And I am not putting words in your mouth. I, for one, cannot judge if you do or do not believe that other factions need rebalancing or not. But, to my knowledge, you certainly haven't said so publicly, or even acknowledged other factions' difficulties. This then begs the question, why should pepole feel sympathetic to your request?
I sympathize with your request and I support your request, even though you have systematically shot down every single plea for balance, reason and equity to the K'luth faction. Because I understand what it is like to be on the opposite side of people who refuse to understand your argument, no matter how reasonable or even-minded.
Ent - I understand your arguments. They are the same arguments I have been systematically making. However, there is a grave difference between "better" and "too strong." Game balance HINGES upon that distinction. And that is where opinions differ. There is no right answer. Only Faustus can make the final call. And the rest of us will have to live with it. God knows the K'luth have lived with his decisions for many years now.
[ This Message was edited by: Arcanum {C?} on 2005-08-21 12:14 ]
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2005-08-21 12:42
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Ent - I understand your arguments. They are the same arguments I have been systematically making. However, there is a grave difference between "better" and "too strong." Game balance HINGES upon that distinction. And that is where opinions differ. There is no right answer. Only Faustus can make the final call. And the rest of us will have to live with it. God knows the K'luth have lived with his decisions for many years now.
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Henceforth the problem - what is the hinge of better and too strong?
Too strong applies when a ship is systematically capable of taking on whole fleets of ships (as in 1 vs 5).
Better is when it exemplifies the attributes of its class to an extent which it is superior to all other ships below it.
For example, the Siphon should exemplify being able to deal large amounts of damage, while able to defend against more of it, than any other Dreadnought/Cruiser/Destroyer/Frigate/ or Scout.
The same can be applied to the Assault Dreadnought an the EAD - im not merely focusing on the EAD here. If the EAD gets rebalenced properly I want the other factions ships to be rebalenced correctly as well.
Such as in 1.482, the AD was more powerful than the EAD, but its shortcomming was its energy. Now, its fairly balenced, but it still faces a few faults, such as having fighters, but it enjoys having all fore arcs.
The Siphon believe it or not is, IMO, the best Assault Dreadnought. Its SI is very energy conservative, yet able to deal great amounts of damage. It comes with 6 DAs, which are extremely powerful, along with 12 cannons and 6 reactors. It best exemplifies what an Assault dreadnought is, capable of delievering a quick, lethal blow to anything the gets too close.
@Sarah Also, you are right there. An EAD should not be capable of plowing through every single ship, it should have energy problems, but not ones that are so severe it puts it out of action for a few minutes.
Larger ships should rely on smaller ships for support, but after that support, the Dreadnoughts take over the most direct offensive role.
So its pretty simple, as I reiterate again how it should work.
When you are a attacking a fleet, your Destroyers are meant to be there for occupying and destroying cruisers, supporting your Dreadnoughts with point defence as well.
Cruisers are there to harass enemy dreadnoughts and destroying threatening waves of cruisers.
Your Dreadnoughts are likely going to be ignoreing anything small (as they would miss anywho) focus all its batterys on an enemy dreadnought - a Dreadnought is capable of destroying anything slow and sluggish with ease.
The only thing that should be able to effectively engage a Dreadnought, is another Dreadnought.
The only thing that should be able to effectively engage a Cruiser, is another cruiser.
The only thing that should be able to effectively engage a Destroyer, is another Destroyer.
And so on and so forth. By effectively, I mean, that it is easiest to engage your own class of ship.
This works both ways, A Cruiser can't effectively engage a Dreadnought, but a Dreadnought can't effectively engage a cruiser. Why you may ask...
Well the Cruiser can hit the Dreadnought, but it can't bring enough firepower to bear to take it out. A Dreadnought has the firepower to bring to bear, but the Cruiser is too fast and manueverable to hit.
Hence...a balence.
Assault ships, on all factions, should be the most powerful combat ships in the game, most effectively used against enemy dreadnoughts with a minor effect on cruisers with almost no effectiveness against Destroyers
-Ent
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Ramius
Fleet Admiral
Agents
Joined: January 12, 2002
Posts: 894
From: Ramius
| Posted: 2005-08-21 13:24
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On 2005-08-21 12:12, Arcanum {C?} wrote:
Jack - Many people are using words which you yourself have said. People are quoting you.
I think the problem lies in the fact that you have a, shall we say...history...of being biased towards the UGTO. Let's not deny reality. And it's not wrong to love your own faction.
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Every single person in this game is affected by groupthink towards the betterment of his/her faction while trying to have the opposing factions nerfed.
This cannot be denied.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2005-08-21 13:30
When I was talking about Dreads in general and the EAD, perhaps you got mixed between when I was talking about one and the other.
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Ramius
Fleet Admiral
Agents
Joined: January 12, 2002
Posts: 894
From: Ramius
| Posted: 2005-08-21 13:35
Haven't you guys realized that the EAD was supposed to be the most powerful ship in the game?
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Arcanum {C?}
Cadet
Joined: June 25, 2005
Posts: 222
| Posted: 2005-08-21 13:47
How can there be balance if there is a superlatively powerful ship in the game? The assault type dreadnought should be the most powerful ship in each faction, but certainly not the Elite Assautl Dread being the most powerful in the GAME.
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