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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
|  Posted: 2013-11-01 15:21
Quote:
On 2013-10-31 22:58, Orkan [A-OO] wrote:
- Capped enhancements at 24%. I suppose this was done out of balance issues and fear of 40%+ bonuses as being overpowered, eg 8 multiplexers or 8 engine tuners. This now levels the playing field more between those who acquire the blues and those who fly stock ships. Although I can appreciate why this was done it does seem that the ships are now less customizable and will be much more similar in stats. Previously you could have a ship dedicated to pure speed, or weapon power, or defence or a mix of the above eg half speed and half weapon power. Now we are all forced to mix types in the same type of way. So I can't fly as fast as I used to so I have to choose for my other 4 slots (if using 6% blues)
something like engine tuners and defense power or engine tuners and weapon multiplexers for example. This has the effect of limiting a bit more the way my ship can be different from other Pilots'. Now there are fewer combinations for customisation. Nevertheless, here I have to agree that a ship taking out another in 2 Alphas or less is a bit unfair so I see why these limits were brought in. Engine tuners never hurt anybody though... or did they : P
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If anything else, I say that having enh capped at 24% gives you MORE options than just "ALL weap multis" or "ALL defs", which was about the defacto standard for many ships.
Now you can use 4 weap multis and 4 defs, or speed, or even turn rate.
Or perhaps you want to add 4 x turn rate enh for a dread that can actually turn with a cruiser? Or 4 weap accels for extra range?
There are definitely more possibilities than just 48% of a single enh type.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo on 2013-11-02 01:06 ]
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Pantheon
Marshal
Palestar
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1789
| Posted: 2013-11-01 15:52
I apologise for taking away the 4 cases where everyone abused 48% enhancements.
No wait. I don't.
Now people will spread out into other areas and make the ships more balanced.
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Scorched Soul[+R]
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: November 14, 2005
Posts: 378
From: USA, NJ, Princeton
| Posted: 2013-11-01 16:09
Quote:
On 2013-11-01 15:21, Kenny_Naboo wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-10-31 22:58, Orkan [A-OO] wrote:
- Capped enhancements at 24%. I suppose this was done out of balance issues and fear of 40%+ bonuses as being overpowered, eg 8 multiplexers or 8 engine tuners. This now levels the playing field more between those who acquire the blues and those who fly stock ships. Although I can appreciate why this was done it does seem that the ships are now less customizable and will be much more similar in stats. Previously you could have a ship dedicated to pure speed, or weapon power, or defence or a mix of the above eg half speed and half weapon power. Now we are all forced to mix types in the same type of way. So I can't fly as fast as I used to so I have to choose for my other 4 slots (if using 6% blues)
something like engine tuners and defense power or engine tuners and weapon multiplexers for example. This has the effect of limiting a bit more the way my ship can be different from other Pilots'. Now there are fewer combinations for customisation. Nevertheless, here I have to agree that a ship taking out another in 2 Alphas or less is a bit unfair so I see why these limits were brought in. Engine tuners never hurt anybody though... or did they : P
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If anything else, I say that having enh capped at 48% gives you MORE options than just "ALL weap multis" or "ALL defs", which was about the defacto standard for many ships.
Now you can use 4 weap multis and 4 defs, or speed, or even turn rate.
Or perhaps you want to add 4 x turn rate enh for a dread that can actually turn with a cruiser? Or 4 weap accels for extra range?
There are definitely more possibilities than just 48% of a single enh type.
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This and when I heard Jack speak briefly about it, sorry if I'm putting words in your mouth. since everyone is brought down with the same restriction it will still give you the same relative advantage compared enemy ships of equivalent layouts, but it makes the ships easier to balance compared to a stock ship. Since tier 1 ships have 1 weapon type you could get a 48% bonus on 100% of your damage dealing weapons, where as a T2 ship would have to either get a 48% bonus to ~half of its weapons if its really unlucky, where as with the current system you can get the full 24% bonus on all of your weapons in the worst case scenario. similar things happened with aura's and enhancements interacting to make ships with negligible mass that accelerate like a bat out'a hell and turned on a dime. I'm sure a multitude of similar situations occurred, but basically the new system increases game balance and enhancement diversity both good things in my opinion.
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AdmiralChaos
Chief Marshal
Joined: October 08, 2008
Posts: 274
| Posted: 2013-11-01 20:52
Is it intended that if you can't contribute to control that you do not gain a planet capture point?
I just captured a planet in scenario via inf because its Luyten and the entire map has all the starter ships via negative sig.
So in this situation, the only way I can contribute control/gain planet capture is to basically fire my weapons and fly around fast?
_________________
I'll chain you to the truth,
For the truth shall set you free,
I'll turn the screws of vengeance,
And bury you with honesty.
I'll make all your dreams come to life,
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Forger of Destiny
Chief Marshal
We Kick Arse
Joined: October 10, 2009
Posts: 826
| Posted: 2013-11-02 01:00
Quote:
On 2013-11-01 20:52, AdmiralChaos *FL* wrote:
Is it intended that if you can't contribute to control that you do not gain a planet capture point?
I just captured a planet in scenario via inf because its Luyten and the entire map has all the starter ships via negative sig.
So in this situation, the only way I can contribute control/gain planet capture is to basically fire my weapons and fly around fast?
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its done that way so that stealth cant be abused by 15 scouts group hugging a planet and capturing it in 5 minutes.
yes, you need some way to be detectable to the planet. signature penalty of scanners would be a good bet, and so would be sitting near a planet, within detection range.
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2013-11-02 06:42
Quote:
On 2013-11-02 05:23, AdmiralChaos *FL* wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-11-02 01:58, Azreal wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-11-01 15:52, Pantheon wrote:
I apologise for taking away the 4 cases where everyone abused 48% enhancements.
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Oh no you don't.
You dont get to call people who use a game mechanic legally "abusers". We use the system you give us.
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^ I wouldn't have wasted nearly all of my credits fitting out my ships had I known it wasn't intended use of enhancements.
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So, we made a massive change in balance that pretty much changed every layout in the game to begin with. Doesn't this already make a lot of the enhancements you bought for those ships not nearly as useful? We did make it free to remove those enhancements and move them around for this very reason.
I will point out that legitimate systems are not foolproof. People do abuse them. Instead of just going "Well guess we can't do anything, its legit!" We just change them.
Those enhancements didn't get clamped down for fun. People worked within the system, used the 48% boost on ships that it would have the maximum effect, and rode that gravy train hard enough for us to notice.
Thats why.
-Ent
[ This Message was edited by: Ent on 2013-11-02 06:46 ]
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AdmiralChaos
Chief Marshal
Joined: October 08, 2008
Posts: 274
| Posted: 2013-11-02 06:45
Quote:
On 2013-11-02 06:42, Ent wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-11-02 05:23, AdmiralChaos *FL* wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-11-02 01:58, Azreal wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-11-01 15:52, Pantheon wrote:
I apologise for taking away the 4 cases where everyone abused 48% enhancements.
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Oh no you don't.
You dont get to call people who use a game mechanic legally "abusers". We use the system you give us.
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^ I wouldn't have wasted nearly all of my credits fitting out my ships had I known it wasn't intended use of enhancements.
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So, we made a massive change in balance that pretty much changed every layout in the game to begin with. Doesn't this already make a lot of the enhancements you bought for those ships not nearly as useful? We did make it free to remove those enhancements and move them around.
Also, I will point out that legitimate systems are not foolproof. People do abuse them. Thats why we change them.
Those enhancements didn't get clamped down for fun. People worked within the system, used the 48% boost on ships that it would have the maximum effect, and rode that gravy train hard enough for us to notice.
Thats why.
-Ent
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I clearly was stacking the wrong stats if thats the case lol
48 damage was countered by 48 defense, 48 range was countered by 48 range.. im not really seeing what was so OP.
granted, it doesnt matter to me. Im fine with having to use other enhancements. I just didnt gather that it would be frowned upon to 48% stats, otherwise I wouldnt have wasted the credits to do it on all my ships.
[ This Message was edited by: AdmiralChaos *FL* on 2013-11-02 06:58 ]
_________________
I'll chain you to the truth,
For the truth shall set you free,
I'll turn the screws of vengeance,
And bury you with honesty.
I'll make all your dreams come to life,
And slay them as quickly as they came.
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2013-11-02 07:11
Quote:
On 2013-11-02 06:45, AdmiralChaos *FL* wrote:
I clearly was stacking the wrong stats if thats the case lol
48 damage was countered by 48 defense, 48 range was countered by 48 range.. im not really seeing what was so OP.
granted, it doesnt matter to me. Im fine with having to use other enhancements. I just didnt gather that it would be frowned upon to 48% stats, otherwise I wouldnt have wasted the credits to do it on all my ships.
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Well, you don't really want to mess with peoples enhancements, but when you just release a "balance patch" and some enhancement stacking is making it very unbalanced, you have to do something. Its really hard to waste those enhancements anyways, because there are many many more ships, and durability runs out eventually you know.
Also, I really don't personally like the idea of "They can just get enhancements to counter it", well, 48% for every ship is a high barrier.
And it didn't help that that 48% was letting players 2 shot others without them. Whatever your convictions are, you probably dont want to leave that in the game.
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AdmiralChaos
Chief Marshal
Joined: October 08, 2008
Posts: 274
| Posted: 2013-11-02 07:19
Quote:
On 2013-11-02 07:11, Ent wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-11-02 06:45, AdmiralChaos *FL* wrote:
I clearly was stacking the wrong stats if thats the case lol
48 damage was countered by 48 defense, 48 range was countered by 48 range.. im not really seeing what was so OP.
granted, it doesnt matter to me. Im fine with having to use other enhancements. I just didnt gather that it would be frowned upon to 48% stats, otherwise I wouldnt have wasted the credits to do it on all my ships.
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Well, you don't really want to mess with peoples enhancements, but when you just release a "balance patch" and some enhancement stacking is making it very unbalanced, you have to do something. Its really hard to waste those enhancements anyways, because there are many many more ships, and durability runs out eventually you know.
Also, I really don't personally like the idea of "They can just get enhancements to counter it", well, 48% for every ship is a high barrier.
And it didn't help that that 48% was letting players 2 shot others without them. Whatever your convictions are, you probably dont want to leave that in the game.
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*nods* I (and im sure others) just don't want to be accused of doing something wrong when we didn't know it. I get why though, and I'm cool with it.
_________________
I'll chain you to the truth,
For the truth shall set you free,
I'll turn the screws of vengeance,
And bury you with honesty.
I'll make all your dreams come to life,
And slay them as quickly as they came.
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
| Posted: 2013-11-02 10:01
Quote:
On 2013-11-02 06:42, Ent wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-11-02 05:23, AdmiralChaos *FL* wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-11-02 01:58, Azreal wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-11-01 15:52, Pantheon wrote:
I apologise for taking away the 4 cases where everyone abused 48% enhancements.
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You dont get to call people who use a game mechanic legally "abusers". We use the system you give us.
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^ I wouldn't have wasted nearly all of my credits fitting out my ships had I known it wasn't intended use of enhancements.
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I will point out that legitimate systems are not foolproof. People do abuse them. Instead of just going "Well guess we can't do anything, its legit!" We just change them.
Those enhancements didn't get clamped down for fun. People worked within the system, used the 48% boost on ships that it would have the maximum effect, and rode that gravy train hard enough for us to notice.
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You guys are talking about 2 seperate aspects. Developers or moderators are talking about how to use enhancement at a well-around setup. Users are complaining as developers didn't alert about the 24% maximum effect before 1.700. There is no agreement both minds encouter with such misunderstanding.
Azreal was right, players have been making use of the mechanics legitimately. There was no limit so we are free to equip whatever we want. Moderator can expand via various samples of equipped ships in Wiki. Saying "48% is an act of abusement" does metaphorically compare players with
lucrative users. We don't get why we are appointed such manner.
Gradually, players will adapt the changes. Actually, when someone keeps playing game, one should accept the new rule, with some attitude. What AdmiralChaos spoke here, that Palestar ought to have some plans to support players who already bought enhancments. Eg: refund may solve AdmiralChaos case since he has the bills and he has the right reasons. And Palestar may alert the new changes sooner so that customers don't get shock.
Personally, I think 24% is a nice balance. It's much less ridiculous as to 50% or more of some money-thirsty MMO. On the other hands, 24% is much higher than many RPG out there. The new limit is ok. However, the preparation to introduce it to community needs expanding distance. Public voting (like we're going to reduce the effect, which percentage below suits you) is a democracy way here.
Frankly, Palestar has a very good crew of game developers. If they're also good at PR, I guess this game is the best place for anyone.
[ This Message was edited by: DiepLuc on 2013-11-02 10:04 ]
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2013-11-02 10:05
Quote:
On 2013-11-02 06:45, AdmiralChaos *FL* wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-11-02 06:42, Ent wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-11-02 05:23, AdmiralChaos *FL* wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-11-02 01:58, Azreal wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-11-01 15:52, Pantheon wrote:
I apologise for taking away the 4 cases where everyone abused 48% enhancements.
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Oh no you don't.
You dont get to call people who use a game mechanic legally "abusers". We use the system you give us.
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^ I wouldn't have wasted nearly all of my credits fitting out my ships had I known it wasn't intended use of enhancements.
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So, we made a massive change in balance that pretty much changed every layout in the game to begin with. Doesn't this already make a lot of the enhancements you bought for those ships not nearly as useful? We did make it free to remove those enhancements and move them around.
Also, I will point out that legitimate systems are not foolproof. People do abuse them. Thats why we change them.
Those enhancements didn't get clamped down for fun. People worked within the system, used the 48% boost on ships that it would have the maximum effect, and rode that gravy train hard enough for us to notice.
Thats why.
-Ent
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I clearly was stacking the wrong stats if thats the case lol
48 damage was countered by 48 defense, 48 range was countered by 48 range.. im not really seeing what was so OP.
granted, it doesnt matter to me. Im fine with having to use other enhancements. I just didnt gather that it would be frowned upon to 48% stats, otherwise I wouldnt have wasted the credits to do it on all my ships.
[ This Message was edited by: AdmiralChaos *FL* on 2013-11-02 06:58 ]
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48% damage or def when put up against unenhanced ships made a lot of diff. It simply became similar to Pay-To-Win.
That was why the clamp was applied to specific stats that were deemed to have an unbalancing effect on general gameplay.
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AdmiralChaos
Chief Marshal
Joined: October 08, 2008
Posts: 274
| Posted: 2013-11-02 10:54
Well.. i'm not going to attempt to quote two posts on my phone but basically exactly what Diep said.
I understand why and I'm okay with it. Just some sort of advanced notice would've been nice. Since I could've at least not put 48%'s on my new 4 ship slots 
_________________
I'll chain you to the truth,
For the truth shall set you free,
I'll turn the screws of vengeance,
And bury you with honesty.
I'll make all your dreams come to life,
And slay them as quickly as they came.
|
Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2013-11-02 12:45
Quote:
On 2013-11-02 10:01, DiepLuc wrote:
You guys are talking about 2 seperate aspects. Developers or moderators are talking about how to use enhancement at a well-around setup. Users are complaining as developers didn't alert about the 24% maximum effect before 1.700. There is no agreement both minds encouter with such misunderstanding.
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That's because it wasn't planned. Enhancements are balanced around ships, not the other way around.
There were no serious issues with enhancements last patch. This patch there was, so they were adjusted.
Quote:
Azreal was right, players have been making use of the mechanics legitimately. There was no limit so we are free to equip whatever we want. Moderator can expand via various samples of equipped ships in Wiki. Saying "48% is an act of abusement" does metaphorically compare players with
lucrative users. We don't get why we are appointed such manner.
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Players are free to do what they like within game mechanics. When people discover that those mechanics make them pretty powerful, they tend to use them excessively (thats what abuse means, when we say it). We don't punish the player. We fix the system. If the player feels punished because they are no longer overpowered, well.
As measures of making the process easier and that people still got their monies worth (if anything, blue and purple enhancements are worth MORE now.)
- Made it free to remove enhancements to and from your ships at no limit
- Enhancements you no longer had access to were returned to your garage
- Actual power levels of enhancements were not adjusted
Considering that we've added a couple hundred ships, its probably nice that we made it so that you don't have to buy tons more, don'tcha think, especially since we changed so many of the previous layouts?
On top of that, its a lower barrier for entry for newbs, and in the future, you don't have to go all out to be competitive. It was in the end, a common sense change that is probably a better time to do now than it would have been in the past.
-Ent
[ This Message was edited by: Ent on 2013-11-02 17:18 ]
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Walrus of Apathy
Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: August 07, 2005
Posts: 466
From: Dorans Basement
| Posted: 2013-11-02 17:10
Quote:
On 2013-11-02 16:39, -Daedalus- wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-11-02 07:11, Ent wrote:
Quote:
On 2013-11-02 06:45, AdmiralChaos *FL* wrote:
I clearly was stacking the wrong stats if thats the case lol
48 damage was countered by 48 defense, 48 range was countered by 48 range.. im not really seeing what was so OP.
granted, it doesnt matter to me. Im fine with having to use other enhancements. I just didnt gather that it would be frowned upon to 48% stats, otherwise I wouldnt have wasted the credits to do it on all my ships.
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Well, you don't really want to mess with peoples enhancements, but when you just release a "balance patch" and some enhancement stacking is making it very unbalanced, you have to do something. Its really hard to waste those enhancements anyways, because there are many many more ships, and durability runs out eventually you know.
Also, I really don't personally like the idea of "They can just get enhancements to counter it", well, 48% for every ship is a high barrier.
And it didn't help that that 48% was letting players 2 shot others without them. Whatever your convictions are, you probably dont want to leave that in the game.
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Ent the fact that people are paying for enhancments and were not informed of this change is bait and switch and if someone wanted to they could start opening disputes for this with paypal and credit card companies.
People are spending real money and you just made what they bought less then they bought which you may want to check and see is even allowed.
It doesn't matter if you or anyone else who runs/devs this game thinks it is for the better it matters if you can legally do it.
Bait and switch laws are there to protect people from this exact thing, pay for one thing, get something else you didn't know about.
[ This Message was edited by: -Daedalus- on 2013-11-02 16:42 ]
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What are you on about? You got exactly what you paid for. You bought an enhancement, you got an enhancement. It's still entirely free for the moment to take it off any ships affected and move them around, or keep them in your garage for whenever it's useful or even sell to another player.
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Pantheon
Marshal
Palestar
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1789
| Posted: 2013-11-02 17:13
FYI, abuse can mean "the improper use of something.". Enhancements were never designed to really be used in the manner they were, as a result, clamps were introduced. We didn't have a system in place to prevent this before, and now we do. Whilst we have the free removal period players can freely swap them out and spread them among ships.
Their use is not diminished or even remotely lessened. A 6% enhancement still gives 6%, they just don't stack as high anymore : this was done to facilitate balance.
We will not be refunding any enhancement purchases, as I have stated above, a 6% enhancement is still a 6% enhancement, it can be applied to other ships or saved for another day. There has been no real world value loss to any enhancement. Stacking a certain value at a %, does not mean those enhancements are any less useful.
Deip: although you may like it, public voting on things is never going to happen in the gaming industry. There's a reason it isn't done anywhere. The closest you'll find is Planetside 2's developer suggestions. Which are developers making suggestions, and players voting on it. But as a whole, developers still make changes based upon the reality of things, and how they want the game to progress. Players are biased (whether you want to admit it or not), and as such, are not a valid pool to be voted with.
This decision was made to increase the quality of balance in the game (which it does : it's a no brainer), and decrease the distance between those using 6% enhancements, and those using stock/1% enhancements. There is still a 24% improvement, and as someone else stated, this is an insane amount in any area of the game, let alone in a variety of areas that you can choose.
[ This Message was edited by: Pantheon on 2013-11-02 17:16 ]
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