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Krill |
Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
|  Posted: 2012-04-06 20:14
Yeah.....this thread is about the Krill, which everyone including most luth players agreed was OP in it's previous config, so why are you bringing up the Siphon which has absolutely nothing to do with it?
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Jim Starluck
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 2232
From: Cincinnati, OH
| Posted: 2012-04-06 20:40
Quote:
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On 2012-04-06 13:22, chlorophyll wrote:
That's why it's called legend.
Maybe our definition about range is not coincide. Hence, we don't agree on Mandible role. My legend:
- Beam range (<350gu): close range
- Torp range (<640gu): medium range
- Core range (<1290gu): long range
- > 1290gu: remote range
Or shall we ask Jim to introduce official legend of range since he was the one who defined range when it came to ship layout?
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Actually, we don't have precisely defined brackets. The general sense is that beams = short, torps/cannons = mid, missiles/fighters = long. But that's as specific as it gets.
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2012-04-06 20:56
Quote:
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On 2012-04-06 13:22, chlorophyll wrote:
Another reason that torp will miss can be traced to its tracking method. I don't know if torp was as fast as core weapon, would it be precise as core weapon. I just think its tracking is not really good.
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Just for reference, torpedoes only travel in straight lines and do not home in on the target. Thus, they are perfectly accurate unless the target is actively changing speed or direction.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2012-04-06 21:05
Quote:
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On 2012-04-06 13:01, Pantheon wrote:
The rank requirements are there because it deviates from the normal K'Luth ships to the point where we believe that only experienced pilots would really be able to utilize it properly.
Having said that, GA and/or the badge requirements will likely be lowered slightly.
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That's fine Panth.
My suggestion: Remove the Privateer requirement. The rest are still OK.
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
| Posted: 2012-04-08 03:15
Quote:
| On 2012-04-06 20:56, Canoness Preceptor Gejaheline wrote:
Just for reference, torpedoes only travel in straight lines and do not home in on the target. Thus, they are perfectly accurate unless the target is actively changing speed or direction. |
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I simulate an ICC scout fires a single Fusion torp at a moving Hive.
Legend:
- Blue line is Fusion travelling path, it's length is 640gu.
- Blue circle is the Fusion blast. According to 1.67 devlog, Fusion blast range is 10 Gu so Scout's fusion blast radius should be 5gu.
- Orange circle is Hive perimeter. According to
K'Luth Armada, Hive diameter is 3646m so I assume its radius is 18,23gu.
- Orange line is Hive travelling path. It's length is a sum of blue circle radius and orange circle radius.
In order for the blast to impact the Hive, the Hive must be travelling no longer than 5+18,23=23,23gu. Assuming the Hive is moving constantly at 3,5gu/s. Then it has travelled 23,23/3,5 seconds. Theoretically, the Fusion speed must be 640:(23,23/3,5)=~96.4gu/s. But in facts the Fusion speed is 90gu/s. MISS!
Well, in above math, the incorrect factors must be the radius of orange circle. Maybe Fusion hits Hive in reality. But UGTO Stations' perimeter is smaller than K'Luth Stations'. In the same situation, Fusion absolutely misses UGTO Station.
After this simulation, I trust The Fridge, he was right.
Quote:
| On 2012-04-06 07:32, The Fridge wrote:
Mandible is close range because the Torps could miss a station from medium range. |
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Apply the aforementioned math, for AM to hit UGTO station, the AM speed theoretically should be 480:((5+22.12)/3.5))=~61.95gu/s. AM actual speed is 60gu/s. Again, it misses!
Let's check what is the maximum distance for a Proton to hit AD.
Proton speed is 65gu/s, blast is 30gu (1,67 dev log). AD length is 1570m so its radius maybe 7,85gu. The orange line in this case is 15+7,85=22,85gu. The travelling time is 22,85/15 seconds. Then the maximum distance is 65*(22,85/15)=~99gu. Insane!
A need to increase projectile speed is open. What we have to do is to discuss the certain landmark of where the projectile hit the moving-at-max-speed target. What is the primary object? Ig, we want Proton hit ICC station at 560gu or we want Proton to definitely hit max-speed-cruiser in a certain zone? What is a sensible blast range? Should torp be homing to offset its slow speed?
[ This Message was edited by: chlorophyll on 2012-04-08 03:21 ]
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2012-04-08 03:29
A homing torp would be useful against stations and dreads that are only beginning to accelerate. Its effectiveness against anything smaller than a cruiser is moot, unless you're skilled at manual detonation.
But that said, torps... unlike missiles... are not subjected to PD fire. So if you want torps to home, then they should be subjected to PD. In fact I like the idea of homing torps. With their slow speed n tracking, it'll feel somewhat like a submarine game.
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Forger of Destiny
Chief Marshal
We Kick Arse
Joined: October 10, 2009
Posts: 826
| Posted: 2012-04-08 04:24
hive radius is well above 50 gu
blast radius for all torpedoes is static regardless of hull size (gadget level).
chlorophyll forgot to accomodate for time required to move from 0 gu/s to 3.5 gu/s, assume it to be 3.5 seconds
fusion torpedo duration is 8 seconds, that means aiming vector error is around (8 * 3.5) - (3.5 ^ 2)/2 = 20.75 gu for a station accelerating/decelerating for 3.5 seconds.
so no torpedoes do not miss stations.
dreadnought radius is more than 15 gu for ugto and icc, and less than 20 gu for kluth. with fusion torpedo blast radius this becomes 25-30 gu.
so this also applies to all ships whose turning and engine thrust is similar to that of a station.
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NoBoDx
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 14, 2003
Posts: 784
From: Germany / NRW
| Posted: 2012-04-08 04:33
i guess most of us rarely shoot in a perfect 90° angel at an enemy ship,
you either try to shoot it in the rear, or in the face to reduce the chance to dodge the bullets
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2012-04-08 06:27
Quote:
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On 2012-04-08 04:33, NoBoDx wrote:
i guess most of us rarely shoot in a perfect 90° angel at an enemy ship,
you either try to shoot it in the rear, or in the face to reduce the chance to dodge the bullets
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Makes no diff. Weaps are auto-aim and lead computed. They fire directly at the target within their arcs. Unless torps leave their tubes in one direction then turn towards their target.
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The Fridge
Chief Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: December 13, 2008
Posts: 559
From: In Your Fridge, Eating your Foods.
| Posted: 2012-04-08 09:05
The fact that you took that comment seriously, when i said it to emphasis that torps are slow and easily dodged is unbelievable.
No wonder y'all somehow finding that the krill is terrible when it's not.
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2012-04-08 16:08
Quote:
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On 2012-04-08 03:15, chlorophyll wrote:
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You would be absolutely right... If ships fired their guns at where the target is currently.
Unfortunately, all weapons in DS lead the target, meaning they aim at where the target will BE by the time the projectile gets there.
This is how people flying in straight lines get shot to pieces.
Just to emphasise that, IF YOU DO NOT CHANGE YOUR SPEED OR DIRECTION YOU WILL BE HIT BY INCOMING ENEMY FIRE.
Unless they are missiles.
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NoBoDx
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 14, 2003
Posts: 784
From: Germany / NRW
| Posted: 2012-04-08 17:35
Quote:
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On 2012-04-08 06:27, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
Quote:
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On 2012-04-08 04:33, NoBoDx wrote:
i guess most of us rarely shoot in a perfect 90° angel at an enemy ship,
you either try to shoot it in the rear, or in the face to reduce the chance to dodge the bullets
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Makes no diff. Weaps are auto-aim and lead computed. They fire directly at the target within their arcs. Unless torps leave their tubes in one direction then turn towards their target.
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the difference:
if you fire a torp at a scout, traveling in a 90 degree path, the torp would move at 90gu/s toward the scout
if the scout fly away from you (@30gu/s) the torp would fly at only 60gu/s toward the scout
if the scout flys at you head on, the torp would travel at 120gu/s toward the scout
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Pantheon
Marshal
Palestar
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1789
| Posted: 2012-04-08 17:43
Quote:
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On 2012-04-08 17:35, NoBoDx wrote:
Quote:
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On 2012-04-08 06:27, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
Quote:
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On 2012-04-08 04:33, NoBoDx wrote:
i guess most of us rarely shoot in a perfect 90° angel at an enemy ship,
you either try to shoot it in the rear, or in the face to reduce the chance to dodge the bullets
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Makes no diff. Weaps are auto-aim and lead computed. They fire directly at the target within their arcs. Unless torps leave their tubes in one direction then turn towards their target.
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the difference:
if you fire a torp at a scout, traveling in a 90 degree path, the torp would move at 90gu/s toward the scout
if the scout fly away from you (@30gu/s) the torp would fly at only 60gu/s toward the scout
if the scout flys at you head on, the torp would travel at 120gu/s toward the scout
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Incorrect. Velocity is absolute and does not change.
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2012-04-08 18:45
speed is relative to the observer. Projectiles in darkspace do not inherit the ships speed at all.
A torp fired from a dreadnought stationary goes the same speed as if the dread fired it going 15gu/s
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2012-04-08 20:22
Uh, guys, he's talking about the TARGET's movement.
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