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Krill |
Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
|  Posted: 2012-04-14 04:35
Currently, the Krill has 4 SIs. The same as the other assault dreads.
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
| Posted: 2012-04-14 05:17
Krill layout:
- 4 SI: FRL
- 8 HPSI: 2 FRL; 2 FLA; 2 FRA; 1 LA; 1 RA
- 8 armor: 2 per arc
- 4 disruptor: 2 full arcs; 2 FRL
Ganglia layout:
- 8 missles: shroud @ 1500gu, psionic @ 1400gu.
- 8 HPSI: 4 FL; 4 FR.
- 7 Armor: 1 A.
- 6 Disruptor: 2 full arcs; 1 FL; 1 FR; 2 F.
How powerful is 8 missles vs 4 SI?
I can say 16 SI = 8 psionic and 12 SI = 8 shroud. 4 SI volley cooldown = 1 psionic volley cooldown. Seems equal.
But the point is, SI range is <850gu, Luth missle is <1400gu so if you want to keep range, Ganglia is the choice.
Krill role is vague. If I want a gunboat, I'll pick Mandible. 3 Mandi AM = 1 Krill SI so 12 Mandi AM = 4 SI. Mandible has like 4 + 4 = 8 SI at front 480gu!
I would suggest a slightly different Krill than Kenny
- 6 SI: 3 FL, 3 FR
- 8 HPSI: 3 FL; 3 FR
- 8 Armor: 2 per arc
- 6 Disruptor: 2 full arcs; 2 FR; 2 FL
[ This Message was edited by: chlorophyll on 2012-04-14 05:19 ]
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Forger of Destiny
Chief Marshal
We Kick Arse
Joined: October 10, 2009
Posts: 826
| Posted: 2012-04-14 06:55
make the krill an oversized glass cannon, because its the only GA-rank ship, and should be proportionately wacky.
5 organic armor (2F 1R 1L 1A)
5 SI (1F 2FL 2FR)
12 Heavy Plasma Cannon (1FRL 1FLA 1FRA 1LRA 1RA 1LA 3FL 3FR)
4 disruptors (1FRLA 1FRL 1FL 1FR)
2 EW slots (3 armor less should give that much extra space)
cloak device
AHR
4 Psi Engines
3 fusion generators
and the basic necessity, AMJD
think that covers up the entire theoretical layout
fore firepower - 5 SI, 9 heavy plasma cannons, 4 disruptors
side firepower - 2 SI, 7 heavy plasma cannons, 3 disruptors
aft firepower - 5 heavy plasma cannons
cannon wise, it has a good coverage but with a bias to the fore
core weapon wise, it is heavily biased to the fore
disruptors are probably what they are currently, fore biased
armor is very weak, suitable to the experience of hit-and-run belief of K'Luth elite players. energy is good, but SI will drain a lot of it if spammed.
very weak to fighterspam/missiles, it cant handle 6 frigate missiles, let alone a fleet of missile dreads and agincourt supercarriers. very weak to sneaky assault ships (assault cruiser and destroyer), but maneuverable enough to blast anyone not being covered.
AHR can be swapped for chitinous armor, which in future will hopefully be the most powerful piece of armor in DS. chitin is more resistant to range attacks.
2 EW will expand the ranged support role of this GA ship, allowing it to help siphons and mandibles reduce cloak energy costs using focused ECM. it doesnt need any for itself, fortunately.
its more effective vs the kraddax ships (MI) because of bias to projectile weapons, compared to all other dreads (ALL OTHER DREADS).
there, a human ship made luthy
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2012-04-14 07:13
U guys sure that yr configs fit the total points allowable on a Dread1 hull?
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2012-04-14 07:41
Nothing about the Krill justifies its reqs. This is not a ship that people are even slightly interested in using atm. The broadside cannon dread idea is simply so far off the hit and run mark I would be here all day giving reasons why.
Luth has one assault dread now, and its the first dread you get, unless they changed something. What we need is a higher level assault dread. Nearly all luth ships should be variations on an assault ship, with forward firepower mostly, because of their possession of the cloak.
I guess the real question that needs to be answered now, is if the K'Luth vision is that it is a hit and run faction, with weaker armor, slightly better weapons, and a cloak, or if they are just going to be a watered down human faction with a cloak. Currently, with each patch, K'Luth as it was is becoming impossible, but without a clear indication of where it is heading. If we are going to be hit and run, we need better thought put into these ships.
I know just my putting text here in this thread makes it about 99% likely that a lock will occur, yet if maybe that particular aspect (what is your current vision of K'Luth) could be explained I'd sure appreciate it.
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2012-04-14 07:47
btw, I was playing with Krill yesterday. It cant take out an ICC supply in 7 alphas. I only managed to do 25% shield damage. Dropping the hull level also dropped the weapon level, correct? Maybe that is the issue? With weapons that actually do damage, who knows, maybe it would be more than a pet rock.
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Forger of Destiny
Chief Marshal
We Kick Arse
Joined: October 10, 2009
Posts: 826
| Posted: 2012-04-14 10:15
weapon levelling 101 - as the gadget level increases, the
range increases substantially (only for beams, fighters and missiles, projectile range has been static since 1.53)
damage increases (very slightly 1-2%)
energy drain increases (slightly 2-3%)
energy needed to cool down increases (substantially 5-8%)
all made-up numbers, but close enough
is there anything else? oh right
ammo decreases (by a fixed number per hull level, except for missiles and mines)
does time between individual shots of a cannon increase per level? i dunno, must be insignificant.
what most people dont let theself understand about weapon levelling is,
-courtesy of backslash
ammo reduces, energy drain increases, quantum increase in damage is outweighed by the drastic increase in time required to recharge the gadget. so while your first strike damage increases by a measly 2% your damage-per-second reduces to as much as 96%
numbers, numbers...bah
@kenny, kluth armor is very space-consuming (lot of layout points). having 3 plates less creates a LOT of space for other gadgets.
comparison? imagine ugto gunboat destroyer's layout.
now imagine ugto battlecruiser's layout and subtract gadgets of GB from BC. you are now left with 3 particle cannons, 1 engine, 2 torpedoes and 2 beams.
engines are worth a lot of points. remove that engine, and you can exchange your leftover layout credit for a layout of 8 1-arc heavy cannons
...whatever...my proposed layout possesses 2 ECM which can be used as point buffer incase my layout point requisition cheque bounces. its nicely balanced.
place for 1 more SI, 4 more heavy guns, 1 more reactor and 1 more ecm comes from removal of 3 organic armor (worth 4 ugto armor) and switching of many tri-arc weapons into bi-arc weapons.
problem? *erudite trollface*
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2012-04-14 11:07
Quote:
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On 2012-04-14 10:15, Toby D Syded wrote:
what most people dont let theself understand about weapon levelling is,
-courtesy of backslash
problem? *erudite trollface*
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Ah, so in other words, my Claw has more powerful weapons than my Krill? Well, that was what I was getting at, but that way works too.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2012-04-14 12:50
Quote:
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On 2012-04-14 04:35, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
Currently, the Krill has 4 SIs. The same as the other assault dreads.
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I was speaking more of cannon dreads which is what the Krill is. CD/BD have 2 cores each, if the Krill had 2 cores it would have more cannons and people would probably complain even more.
But I have to agree that not changing the badge reqs be madd whack, yo.
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Fluttershy
Fleet Admiral
Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy
| Posted: 2012-04-14 19:06
could the krill function as a gunboat if it had 2 SI's taken off, provided more cannons, given plasma cannons by default, and have a 2nd AHR?
2nd AHR might seem stupid, but because kluth typically aren't built for extended fights, and because a gunboat needs to fire for a longer period of time to be effective, i think it would be fair to give it better endurance.
It'll recover faster than the other kluth dreads, but it wont pack the same punch. It will still have less armor than the dreads of other factions.
[ This Message was edited by: Fluttershy on 2012-04-14 19:06 ]
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Pantheon
Marshal
Palestar
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1789
| Posted: 2012-04-14 19:35
Quote:
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On 2012-04-14 11:07, Azreal wrote:
Quote:
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On 2012-04-14 10:15, Toby D Syded wrote:
what most people dont let theself understand about weapon levelling is,
-courtesy of backslash
problem? *erudite trollface*
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Ah, so in other words, my Claw has more powerful weapons than my Krill? Well, that was what I was getting at, but that way works too.
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Not sure what Toby D is on about, but he's not right.
The Krill was an unfortunate afterthought of a developer that never got finished. I personally hate the idea of K'Luth having long range ships capable of high damage, as they become impossible to balance in that area without severely disabling other forms of K'Luth warfare.
I had hopped to pull the Krill into a closer-ranged brawler like, say, the BD or CD, which was why the SI's and cannons' ranges were reduced (you don't honestly need that range).
I can't undo what was done in the past when different people were in charge, but I am strictly and vehemently against putting in anymore long range K'Luth ships, and would ideally like to move any existing long range ones into a more mid to close range pack. Unfortunately, we have neither the time nor the resources to do such a thing, so to compromise, we've made the changes we have, and as such, I feel as a whole things aren't that bad.
Yes, there are some overlapping roles, and the requirements are a bit wonky, but there is only so much we can do, and it's just as frustrating for us to not be able to do everything we want to.
I'd love more than anything to remove the Krill, as it's an awkward and annoying ship to balance, and, as I mentioned above, was stuck in half-assed, and then left for us to clean up. Thankfully now there's a more robust structure and method in place, but unfortunately we cannot just remove the Krill (for various reasons, one being that you'd hunt us with pitch forks).
Hence why you see some overlap, and why the requirements are still high. Hopefully you can sympathise with us now that you know the deal with the Krill. We'll do something with it, we just need to find a roll for it to fit into.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2012-04-14 20:20
So.....basically what you're saying is the Krill is the equivalent of a flaming bag of dog poo that some punk kid left on your doorstep?
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Pantheon
Marshal
Palestar
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1789
| Posted: 2012-04-14 20:25
Quote:
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On 2012-04-14 20:20, Talien wrote:
So.....basically what you're saying is the Krill is the equivalent of a flaming bag of dog poo that some punk kid left on your doorstep?
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No - did you even read the post?
Unfortunately, we have neither the time nor the resources to do such a thing, so to compromise, we've made the changes we have, and as such, I feel as a whole things aren't that bad.
I guess in some ways, personally yes. But game-wise, definitely not a bag of poo.
[ This Message was edited by: Pantheon on 2012-04-14 20:31 ]
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Fluttershy
Fleet Admiral
Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy
| Posted: 2012-04-14 20:44
it's more like an adopted child that nobody has time to deal with.
Poor Krill, maybe one day his new parents wont be so busy, and have time to raise him to be a good kid 
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2012-04-14 21:54
Quote:
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On 2012-04-14 20:25, Pantheon wrote:
No - did you even read the post?
Unfortunately, we have neither the time nor the resources to do such a thing, so to compromise, we've made the changes we have, and as such, I feel as a whole things aren't that bad.
I guess in some ways, personally yes. But game-wise, definitely not a bag of poo.
[ This Message was edited by: Pantheon on 2012-04-14 20:31 ]
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Yes I read the post, and it sounded like you were saying the current dev team was left with a giant mess of ship that none of you liked but can't simply get rid of without making a bigger mess.
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