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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
|  Posted: 2012-02-16 19:49
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On 2012-02-16 17:00, Defiance{CM7} wrote:
erm. unless something has changed about how building works, this issue is a non issue. There is no possible way you can attack a planet so that it never recovers.
If you nuke all the pop, all the food, tec, and power structures go down yes. But the colony hub acts like a jump starter for the planet. It puts up 10 pop, tec, and power. From there pop, tec, and power grow, and structures automaticly come back online as the nessisary p/t/p specs are met.
Even though ptp specs are not met for cortex nexus structures, they too will come back online.
If this was an issue, then every time a MI glassed a planet, then it would be forever dead.
or am i wrong?
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If you're using Auto Farms then yeah, it'll recover on it's own every time, it may revolt in the process but it will get itself back to full working order.....but Biosphere Condensers though, not so much. Since they require workers and randomly go offline along with every other structure during worker shortage it pretty well prevents the population from growing unless someone is babysitting the planet and scrapping inf while micromanaging what structures are offline while pop grows.
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Hakketak
Grand Admiral
Joined: March 24, 2009
Posts: 301
| Posted: 2012-02-16 19:50
i like how the guy that talks in the background finally makes sense. he says "engineering" when i got to engineering screen, instead of a continious flow of "engineering check, naviagtion check, weapons check, etc etc check"
to bad the suicidal freak ship got removed, but i can understand why.....
ai flies better indeed, i just noticed a thing with shooting a supply ship. it didnt attack me back, but it also didnt move along to whereever it was heading. the supply ship chose to orbit me while i tried to get to its rear. the icc supply ship just waited for me to get it to 0% hull before it jumped out to mid space.
havent tested much though...b back with more
edit: watched ai crash into planet still. a cruiser trying to pj me and a tranny trying to e-jump out, planet Hler
also at planet nearby ai can crash:) this time the tranny didint even jump, it made a u-turn to avoid me but planet got into the path
[ This Message was edited by: Teddybear on 2012-02-16 20:03 ]
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2012-02-16 20:31
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On 2012-02-16 19:17, NoBoDx wrote:
this was always a riddle to me.... why people get stupid when my labs go offline
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Think of the labs as an abstraction for a building or set of buildings that produce tools/equipment specialized for that's planets condition. Every planet is different, and thusly every planet requires its own set of technology to exploit it to a certain degree. You could also argue that the death of many many smart/trained people would lead to an issue of "how do we train all these random people to use our very specialized tools", thus the reason why technology slowly climbs back up from a disaster like that
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2012-02-16 21:15
Maybe, but you'd think there would be backup systems that would keep them running as long as it had power.
Also, just targeting the planet itself and emptying your bomb racks on the same spot wouldn't kill off anyone who wasn't in the immediate area. I could understand Neutrons/Bio bombs causing more population death since they spread radiation/toxins through the atmosphere but Mirvs and Telekinetic bombs should only affect the area immediately surrounding the detonation site, yet they do everything Neutron/Bio bombs do and more.
And then there's how scrapping a Dome counts as killing 10 population even when there's an overabundance of workers instead of just removing them and making them move in with friends or relatives or something, why would relocating a bunch of unemployed bums cause tech and morale to drop?
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Blackjack [DBL]
Grand Admiral
Faster than Light
Joined: February 25, 2011
Posts: 344
From: The land of venomous reptiles.
| Posted: 2012-02-16 23:20
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On 2012-02-16 21:15, Talien wrote:
why would relocating a bunch of unemployed bums cause tech and morale to drop?
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They aren't relocated, they never show up again.. that makes me assume that the life support gets destroyed (if the planet needs it) in the dome, killing everyone. Or it could just be that the building has a self destruct device that's triggered.
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
| Posted: 2012-02-17 01:56
Quote:
| On 2012-02-16 10:26, Fattierob wrote:
If the population decreases, structures will shut down from lack of workers. If that doesn't correct the imbalance of workers, the structures will stay paused until the worker shortage is resolved, either naturally or through external means (like an enginer building in orbit or the mass deletion of infantry)
This appears to be working exactly as it should. What is the problem here? |
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The problem occurs because of
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| Planets runs a check every 60 seconds to see if structures can be put back on given that the planet has no more shortages of the type they drain |
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This was the status of a barren I saw in beta:- Pop: 40/70
- Tech: 50/90
- Food: 40/70 (2 Bio)
- Power: X-100/X
When the planet lacked food, it automatically assigned random structures to pause. Sometimes, the Bio farm had its turn to activate. But after the checking, the planet assigned worker to activate the pausing structures and therefore lack worker for the Bio. The Bio was paused before it provided enough food for the pop to increase to give worker for other structures. Hence, the planet stayed lacking of food.
Consider worker lacking was the problem, I took the engineer to upgrade the Bio to Automated farm. Just when I thought the food problem was solved, I recognized none of the Automated work. Why? Because they didn't have power to function, lmao! I could imagine the sequence circle: lack of food -> worker -> power -> food. I noticed the planet status was floating but it might not go under some decent condition thanks to the colony.
Hilariously, the barrack was never paused during the checking although the planet already had 32 infantry. If only had I been able to pause structure manually, I could have babysitting the planet without scrapping anything. I avoid building in orbiting engineer or mass deletion of infantry as I don't see any encouragement to lose prestige for caring.
Quote:
| On 2012-02-16 17:00, Defiance{CM7} wrote:
If you nuke all the pop, all the food, tec, and power structures go down yes. But the colony hub acts like a jump starter for the planet. It puts up 10 pop, tec, and power. From there pop, tec, and power grow, and structures automaticly come back online as the nessisary p/t/p specs are met. |
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You forget the flow of time and other structures existence.
Assuming a planet has 32 structures with prerequisite structures (pop/food/power) just enough to maintain miscellaneous structures. This is scrip when a planet lacks something:- At minute 1, after the 1st checking, the planet has enough resource for the prerequisite and give all resource for them to work; food, pop and power gains.
- At minute 2, after the 2nd checking, the planet recognizes that it has more worker & power than needed to run the prerequisite, then it decides to share the worker & power to the miscellaneous. Unfortunately, the planet is not smart enough to distributing fair, suddenly it has all the miscellaneous active and parts of the prerequisite pause; food, pop and power decreases.
- At minute 3, after the 3rd checking, the planet decides to share the resource to both the prerequisite and the miscellaneous. The prerequisite buildings will always rolls on on-off-on-off..., causing the status of the planet to float repeatedly. It may not die but it never recovers to full.
As stated, the planet checking every minute is the problem. You may observe the planet for more than 2 minutes, Fattierob, then you ought to find out that there will be 2 groups of structures that take turn to pause every minute. The imbalance will never be corrected naturally as long as the buildings are responsible to each other via multiple kinds of resource.
It's very questionable to disable the control of pausing structures. Normally, players only pause structures when the planet lacks something. When the planet is full, only barracks should be paused as long as there are crowded of red infantry. There must be a reason behind this feature. Would you please reveal it for us to know, Fattirob?
[ This Message was edited by: chlorophyll on 2012-02-17 02:48 ]
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Evil Android #6
2nd Rear Admiral
Joined: February 12, 2010
Posts: 16
| Posted: 2012-02-17 05:39
i think the 60 sec check to unpause structures is ok, but i do agree there should be a priority list in what should be activated first...
colony hub & domes
food
power
barracks
depot
tech
(shield base in case of icc)
starport
interdictor
shipyard, if there is one
mining
factories
sensor base
defense base
thay way a planet babysits itself. some sort of sequential ring might be required for food and power though. like activate 1 food, then 1 power, then 1 food, etc, until food and power back up 100% and then continue as normal. else theres is chance planet wants to activate food but theres no power.
[ This Message was edited by: Zupamann on 2012-02-17 06:17 ]
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2012-02-17 05:54
I'll look into it. I recently re-wrote how structures were activated but i don't know if it was pushed to beta or not (svn is down). I'll see if I can get some kind of priority in terms of turning things off/on first.
The reason for the change is to prevent griefing/sabotage.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2012-02-17 06:28
Quote:
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On 2012-02-17 05:54, Fattierob wrote:
I'll look into it. I recently re-wrote how structures were activated but i don't know if it was pushed to beta or not (svn is down). I'll see if I can get some kind of priority in terms of turning things off/on first.
The reason for the change is to prevent griefing/sabotage.
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Frob, preventing griefing/sabotage is all good. But we shd try to avoid removing impt functions. Priority shd be shifted towards gameplay functionality over anti-sabo measures.
After all, you already have measures like the log and /report in place.
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Evil Android #6
2nd Rear Admiral
Joined: February 12, 2010
Posts: 16
| Posted: 2012-02-17 09:31
i think its a great implemention. a planet has a heap of population and u expect some from of intelligence exist between em there....
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Forger of Destiny
Chief Marshal
We Kick Arse
Joined: October 10, 2009
Posts: 826
| Posted: 2012-02-18 02:21
about ai dodging logics-
it works very well. a kluth transporter can avoid about 20% railgun shots at 200 gu range, and almost 60% above 400 gu.
about benefits of combat timer-
in small ship combat, icc scouts and frigates can easily avoid damage for 30 seconds with their great maneuvering, after which they can just repair all the damage they may have received. this emphasizes defensive character of ICC, but i think this character bonus is unduly available to scouts, frigates and destroyers only.
i was wondering if (with reference to interdictor mass increase when activated) being out of combat, shields were given some fixed mass to reduce overall maneuverability of ship. this would make icc small ships easier to hit if they try to "be out of combat while getting chased by enemy using superb maneuvering as excuse".
as added note, this would not affect dreads as their engines reduce overall impact of extra mass.
about interdictor device changes (energy increase and variable mass increase)-
testing ugto interdictor cruiser (full speed, 1 auxilliary reactor), it lost 130 energy in 160 seconds. ideal drain rate, but maybe it should be increased a little more (+10~20%)
ugto dico cruiser turns at 12 degrees/second with interdictor off, and 11 d/s with interdictor on. the increase while active is not of enough impact. i suggest the mass increase be made bigger. currently it is +100% when active, and it would be more noticeable if it was changed to +200%.
note:-when low on armor the turn rate increases, and the impact of mass increase also increases. but the impact should be more.
about interdictor field being landmark objects-
planet dico fields are not functional.
case-gefjon. had a dictor field graphic effect, had "all" requirements for dictor base functionality. also had 15% control value. i easily jumped through the graphic of the field.
case-lock's core cluster. it had 4 planets, 3 K'Luth and 1 neutral. all planets had 100% control and fulfilled all requirements for dico base. all planets had graphic of a dico field on each planet. i jumped through the fields of all 4 planets at once.
case-amaryllis. terran planet with all resources needed for dico field, 100% control. even at 400 gu from planet centre, my jump drive does not deactivate.
case-me, ugto interdictor cruiser, had hull damage and armor damage. a parasite cruiser turns around to jump, i jump near it (with dictor field already active) to block it's path. parasite at 1050 gu away from me, initiates jump and goes straight through my field.
[ This Message was edited by: Compromisery on 2012-02-18 05:18 ]
--Clarification-- :- The mass for shields I am talking about is suggested, on the conditionality that it may be effective only when the shield-bearing ship is not in combat I.E. whose combat timer indicator is inactive and which is gaining benefits of not being in combat mode.
with the current protocols involved in "combat timer" and it's accompanying benefits, a scenario is possible wherein an ICC ship, loaded with maneuverability enhancements such as Makkar Ship Boosters, may 1) engage enemies in combat, deal and receive damage, 2) then avoid damage for 30 seconds, use time to rapidly reconstitute defenses and restore power levels, 3) then engage enemy again and use newly gained strength to defeat weakened enemy.
and no, it is not easy for us dreadwielders and stationations to hit your cruisers and destroyers.
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Rebel Retribution
Grand Admiral
Joined: January 23, 2006
Posts: 41
From: Hillsboro, OR
| Posted: 2012-02-18 02:35
why would you want to penalize small ships? They should b able to dodge and avoid incoming fire. If you take that away then ALL icc ships will just be big targets with a shield ability that doesnt work bc u cant stop getting hit.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2012-02-18 02:39
Isn't the whole point of shields instead of armor extra maneuverability at the expense of lower defense? Last I remember Active Shields have somewhere around 70% the HP of Standard Armor and Reactive have about 60% the HP of Active. If you want to harrass smaller ICC ships so they can't benefit from the 30 second timer might I suggest trying your own smaller ships to do it with?
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2012-02-18 02:41
ummm.. Hell no shields dont, and will not ever have the mass of armor.
is it not enough that our frigates are the size of ugto destroyers? Our destroyers the size of cruisers? our cruisers nearly the size of dreads!
[ This Message was edited by: Defiance{CM7} on 2012-02-18 02:44 ]
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2012-02-18 03:10
if i may be so bold, I think you guys (devs) are trying to change too many things at once.
- Standard and Ablative Armor HP reduced by 5% and 7.5% respectively.
- All weapon damage (minus missiles and fighters) have had their damage reduced by 10%. Falloff on cannons has not been reduced by 10%, so as a result, UGTO and K'Luth cannons will not be as effective at long ranges.
this skews the balance between ICC and UGTO and Kluth. (skewed != not ballanced) This alone would be a handful to test. but then you add;
- Implemented new cloaking system -- Cloaked ships can no longer be detected with ECM/ECCM pinging, instead cloak energy usage is based on the amount of signature being masked by the cloaking device. Additionally, if the cloaking device is engaged and energy level reaches zero the ship will begin taking internal damage to the device.
- New ECM/ECCM Variants
In this you alter both the intended target of Ewar (Kluth vs humans) as well as how the devices themselfs work.
and then;
Defense Mode: No longer a shield mode - now comes on automatically when the ship is out of combat but without energy penalty.
- Active Shields: 5% hp increase.
- Reactive Shields : 5% regen increase.
- Added out of combat mechanic. Taking or inflicting damage will reset the combat timer to 30 seconds, which will then count down to 0.
When out of combat, the following will occur:
Repairs will be increased by 50%.
Shield regen increased by 400%.
Cloak energy cost decreased by 25%.
This coupled with the ugto armor changes, as well as gauss changes makes for alot of grey area. Things that used to be balanced now may be totaly out of wack.
- AI will now dodge incoming fire.
Now, not even the AI can be used as a controle.
In short, there is no longer a baseline. To compare beta to release is no good. Also there are no base line stats to go on inside of beta. Basicly you changed everything about combat... and you want to test everything at once, rather than changing one thing at a time so you can pinpoint exact causes of imbalance.
All this combined is holding up bug fixes that actualy need to be pushed to live asap;
- A certain elite has lost it's interdictor device. All may be fair in war, but nerf bat beats all
- Fixed issue where the source wormhole wouldn't be created/displayed on the client that initiated the device.
- Interdictor fields have been reverted back to landmark objects from local, meaning all clients will know where one is at all times instead of only when within 5,000 gu of one. This will solve the issues where some clients would jump some way into the fields before being stopped
- Fixed client lag/hitching issues caused by assets getting loaded in the foreground thread.
- Fixed issue with the beam weapons jittering on low-frame rate machines.
- Ship trails are no longer visible past 500 (wish it wer 1000) gu. This was done to stop a exploit.
- Enhancements may be scrapped instead of removed, which costs zero credits but the enhancement is destroyed.
- Fixes to the client asset cache.
...In closing, bug fixes should always take precedence over feature releases... as feature releases always come with more bugs.
Jus trying to help you guys not feel so bogged down.
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