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Anti-stealth weapons |
ADmiraLMaXimus (Bringer of Doom)
Chief Marshal
Praetorian Wolves
Joined: March 09, 2002
Posts: 363
From: Earth
|  Posted: 2011-09-29 20:04
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On 2011-09-29 04:25, Demigan wrote:
I always play ICC currently, simply because I started with it, and I see no reason to switch sides because of unbalances. The unbalances should be adressed, not which side i"m on.
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True that, however a good player can play at the highest levels for his or her faction, but a great player can play any faction in the same level of percision and expertise.
I suggest before requesting any change of another faction that you at least play all factions for at least a month or two at a time and try to learn to play all thier strengths and weaknesses.
here are a few free tips in general:
ICC is a range faction
UGTO is a brute force faction
Kluth is a hit n run stealth faction
ICC needs to play in great numbers to be effective and rotating shields helps in direct 1v1 combat but in a battle you need to work as a team
UGTO can play in smaller numbers to be just as effective , its not often that in a 1 v 1 combat situation that a UGTO ship can rotate but rotaing the ship is similar to shields rotating except ICC can keep all forward weps on target whilst UGTO will lose that advatage but thier armor is very stong.
Kluth are stealthy and need only a few players to be effective they are more commonly players that have played as all factions for some time and have the most knowledge of faction weaknesses and strengths.
Kluth are also more likely to play as a team and trap other faction players.
Kluth players are all team players because they have to be and are good at working as a team so if you see one kluth player ther are probaly 2 more close by. 
Kluth beams are far stonger than human beams for example:
you may have engaged a kluth player in a similar level ship however while your ICC or UGTO beams are firing at 200 GU range they are less effective than the kluth ships beams which hit with full strength at any range.
also the closer a human ships is the stronger the beams get , but the kluth beams will always be stonger.....
so if your gona get close to a kluth player get real close and dont even use the beams till your really close but try to keep a distance and use your projectile weapons first ... belive me the kluth will get closer to you eventually cause thier torps and SI are slower moving so save enerergy and use beams when they do the most damage at close range
also if you (Ping) engage your ECCM and quicly turn it off you can detect any kluth vessel while cloaked within 500 to 700 GU and when you see the red diamond target it witht the mouse and fire everything.
at that moment when you ping the enemy ship they are visible for 1 sec and cannot fire back... and if you can guess where thier next position will be you can keep hitting them while they cannot fire back.
Many a human faction player have killed a kluth ship without the kluth being able to fire a single shot and the kluth ship was still cloaked when it was destroyed...
so just experience everything you can so you know what you are fighting.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2011-09-29 21:28
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On 2011-09-29 17:04, Fluttershy wrote:
Can you stick beacons on a K'luth ship to keep them from re-cloaking?
If so I'm just gonna fly recon every time we're fighting against them.
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All you need is one or two good scout pilots, and you effectively negate the Kluth's primary advantage. Their cloak.
I've seen some players use this to great effect, both on UGTO and ICC. Unfortunately most of the time, those good scout pilots are not around, or nobody wants to fly one. Everytime a Kluth group sees a human fleet without a scout around, they rub their hands together in glee...
Now if you have a scout AND a dictor. That's it. No Kluth will attack you unless they had a numerical advantage. And even then, your dico will be the first to be shot at. 
Kluth weaps may be powerful, but without their cloak, they do not have combat endurance vs any human ship. Take cloak away, put a Kluth cruiser/dread vs an ICC cruiser/dread and have them sit still and pound each other full on. The Kluth ship will go first. That's not to say that the ICC ship will emerge unscathe. But the Kluth will either die or have to jump out first.
That said, why Kluth mostly seem to win, even when 1 on 1, is because he caught you off guard and got the first strike in. And he caught you from a direction that you didn't have much of your weaps facing. By the time you've gotten yourself organized to shoot back, he'd already gotten 2 or 3 shots in and you're nearly hulled.
This is coming from a Kluth player. Solo, I would dare to attack 2 or even 3 dreads because I know that I can get the first shot in and do damage before I escape.
Factor in a scout, and I'll think twice. Because then, the possibility of making it out alive will be iffy. Unless it was gonna be a suicide mission, of course.
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2011-09-29 22:08
guess what were all trying to say is, there is stuff in place to fight kluth. And actualy ICC has the best of it.
Its still a pain though, but you will get the hang of it. Fighting kluth is the last bastion of skill based gameplay left in the game. Lets not break that too eh?
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Defiance and Opposition, a tribute to teamwork. I will remember always
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[ML]RogueAvengerTTV
Marshal
Joined: September 11, 2010
Posts: 300
From: England
| Posted: 2011-09-30 02:03
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On 2011-09-29 22:08, *XO*Defiance{CM7} wrote:
guess what were all trying to say is, there is stuff in place to fight kluth. And actualy ICC has the best of it.
Its still a pain though, but you will get the hang of it. Fighting kluth is the last bastion of skill based gameplay left in the game. Lets not break that too eh?
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WOOT thats right this game is about teamwork and skill. the idea of theluth faction is hit and run taking that away is well silly it would be like taking icc shields and saying well u dont need them vs ugto cause they help stop us killing you :S
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Demigan
Vice Admiral
Joined: September 12, 2011
Posts: 88
| Posted: 2011-09-30 02:50
As everyone keeps saying, with the right teamwork, we can be dangerous vs kluth, but the kluth are always dangerous, and even with the correct teamwork, they can be still more dangerous then us.
Consider this: I haven't seen a k'luth player yet that couldn't follow the k'luth stratagem correctly. While most ICC players know the ICC stratagem, it's hard to follow.
That shows that the k'luth stratagem is fairly easy, although it has it's negative sides (if you call pinging a negative side, it's like saying 'my shields have a negative side, they can be destroyed!). But the ICC stratagem is fairly difficult, as it requires high coördination and high risks for those who support the combat units to find and kill the luth players.
When ICC attacks, we need to fill in different roles, and lose firepower for those support roles, luth can work it's way up. First you target the things that can hamper you, like the pingers and the dictors, once they are out of the way, the rest are sitting ducks.
And when Luth attacks? every extra luth player means a ton more firepower. What I want is that ALL teams require tactics and intricate strategies. There is no point in a difficult and intricate stratagem, if your enemy can simply continue as he had before.
While yes, the ICC should keep it's intricate and difficult stratagem, I would really, really prefer it if luth had to use more strategies as well, other then 'cloak, move up behind them, kill'.
As for the remark that 'if you want the developers to give you a counter to cloak, why don't you ask them to remove ICC shields?'
Well, currently my shields seem practically non-existent when a luth alpha's. so there wouldn't be much change there.
@Defiance:
I think I understand. Porting energy from a reactive shield to an active shield will grant you the same amount of shield %, while the active shield survives longer with the same %. This way, the active shields will recharge as fast as the reactive shields for the same energy and more defence.
Yours sincerely,
Demigan.
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[ML]RogueAvengerTTV
Marshal
Joined: September 11, 2010
Posts: 300
From: England
| Posted: 2011-09-30 03:28
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On 2011-09-30 02:50, Demigan wrote:
As everyone keeps saying, with the right teamwork, we can be dangerous vs kluth, but the kluth are always dangerous, and even with the correct teamwork, they can be still more dangerous then us.
Consider this: I haven't seen a k'luth player yet that couldn't follow the k'luth stratagem correctly. While most ICC players know the ICC stratagem, it's hard to follow.
That shows that the k'luth stratagem is fairly easy, although it has it's negative sides (if you call pinging a negative side, it's like saying 'my shields have a negative side, they can be destroyed!). But the ICC stratagem is fairly difficult, as it requires high coördination and high risks for those who support the combat units to find and kill the luth players.
When ICC attacks, we need to fill in different roles, and lose firepower for those support roles, luth can work it's way up. First you target the things that can hamper you, like the pingers and the dictors, once they are out of the way, the rest are sitting ducks.
And when Luth attacks? every extra luth player means a ton more firepower. What I want is that ALL teams require tactics and intricate strategies. There is no point in a difficult and intricate stratagem, if your enemy can simply continue as he had before.
While yes, the ICC should keep it's intricate and difficult stratagem, I would really, really prefer it if luth had to use more strategies as well, other then 'cloak, move up behind them, kill'.
As for the remark that 'if you want the developers to give you a counter to cloak, why don't you ask them to remove ICC shields?'
Well, currently my shields seem practically non-existent when a luth alpha's. so there wouldn't be much change there.
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No Im sorry but your very very wrong ... have you ever played k'luth ? its not as easy as you might think our armor is worse than icc armor at least you have shields we don't. and im sorry but 1 k'luth arnt that dangerous vs 3 icc players that are skilled this game is mostly about skill and im sorry but if your in a cruiser and im in a siphon at close range im built to win also i don't believe your taking into consideration enhancements my siphon has +23% beam damage so yes the beams will hurt alot k'luth are ment to have a cloak there are already means to combat them if you want to permanently uncloak at before there optimal range then what's the point in having it ? and for your comment about luth popping scouts yes thats true but after the next patch there will be increased de-cloak time in which you will have to react and short e-jump away or in a scout don't fly in circles or very straight lines and no luth dread will be able to one shot you. you are saying luth i easy when your sadly mistaken i welcome you to come to k'luth and see that it isnt as easy as you might think in fact its quite hard please stop trying to get one faction nurfed because you cant beat them. try to learn how to many people are able to beat me i.e. defiance on a few occasions has killed whilst in a dread so please ask for help from your faction and don't say that luth need a nurf we are already getting one cloak is fine it does what it says on the tin. just like ugto amour, and icc shields.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2011-09-30 03:52
I need help just reading your post. 
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[ML]RogueAvengerTTV
Marshal
Joined: September 11, 2010
Posts: 300
From: England
| Posted: 2011-09-30 04:11
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On 2011-09-30 03:52, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
I need help just reading your post.
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Mine ? sorry im dyslexic.
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[ML]RogueAvengerTTV
Marshal
Joined: September 11, 2010
Posts: 300
From: England
| Posted: 2011-09-30 05:00
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As for 'calling AI', as you noticed the AI isn't the brightest, toss in a target that cloaks and you need to give new orders every time again (while luth burns you away)
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Tip - don't order ai to attack a target order it to defend you 
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*FTL*Soulless
Marshal
Joined: June 25, 2010
Posts: 787
From: Dres-Kona
| Posted: 2011-09-30 07:03
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On 2011-09-30 03:28, RogueAvenger10 wrote:
No Im sorry but your very very wrong ... have you ever played k'luth ? its not as easy as you might think our armor is worse than icc armor at least you have shields we don't. and im sorry but 1 k'luth arnt that dangerous vs 3 icc players that are skilled this game is mostly about skill and im sorry but if your in a cruiser and im in a siphon at close range im built to win also i don't believe your taking into consideration enhancements my siphon has +23% beam damage so yes the beams will hurt alot k'luth are ment to have a cloak there are already means to combat them if you want to permanently uncloak at before there optimal range then what's the point in having it ? and for your comment about luth popping scouts yes thats true but after the next patch there will be increased de-cloak time in which you will have to react and short e-jump away or in a scout don't fly in circles or very straight lines and no luth dread will be able to one shot you. you are saying luth i easy when your sadly mistaken i welcome you to come to k'luth and see that it isnt as easy as you might think in fact its quite hard please stop trying to get one faction nurfed because you cant beat them. try to learn how to many people are able to beat me i.e. defiance on a few occasions has killed whilst in a dread so please ask for help from your faction and don't say that luth need a nurf we are already getting one cloak is fine it does what it says on the tin. just like ugto amour, and icc shields.
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luth is that easy. You get AHR so your armor repairs at a quick rate.
One luth can be very dangerious to three ICC, Who was it that i was terrorizing with my stock mandi yesterday?
Ehns break the game. Again luth is easy, why not look at the ehns defi had, or how you were flying.
Its not hard to evade enemies while cloaked.
And thats the thing, To counter luth dreads a fractions has to pull MORE DREADS, something the game is trying to get away from.
LOL icc shields are like wet toilet paper or modern bumpers
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2011-09-30 07:23
yes, kluth is real easy. But only because we alow it. As stated a good scout pilot can shut down a kluth attack.
That being said, I assure you there are plenty of tools in place to deal with kluth. Yes, it means we have to field less firepower, even as we already have the lowest firewpower in the game. Yes our strategy requires more skill than kluth, but there are some kluth that take tactics to a whole new level. There are four of them "Vier". I really started respecting kluth as a faction after i saw those four fly together.
So, yes, you want kluth tactics to be more on the level with icc? Niether kluth nor ugto are anywhere close to the dificulty of pioting icc affectivly.
Kluth are easy, because we hardly ever field the right equipment to deal with them. If the right equipment is on station, kluth cannot even jump out of battle without being tracked, pinged, beaconed, and killed.
If more measures are put into place to further hamper cloak, then the adition of proper fleet composure on top of this, would have kluth unplayable. Its really a touchy area. So easy to break cloak ballance.
As for me kiling rogue, blindfire. Most kluth these days dont know how to react when someone can predict their movements. Not many people left in game that can blindfire effectivly.
Actualy most kltuth these days have never been hunted by a proper fleet. They have no idea how frustrating that is. Ive been kluth, and subject to indictor, destroyer, scout fleets and can tell you first hand how helpless it makes you feel.
So yea, ICC is hard. But played right, kluth and ugto dont stand a chance in hell.
(Im.. sorry im all over the place in this post.. usualy im so collected...)
Also another tip;
if your in a ship one class down from the one hunting, when they cloak, turn so that your aft is pointed at their last known location, and full throttle. This will make it tough for them to get optimal firing position at you. Also you can fire up to 45 degrees port and starbord while flying away relitivly easy. The shots will spread out maxing your chance of hitting.
If you find yourself missing alot with blindfire, stop firing until you re-aquire the target. You have limited ammo.
Try to randomise your reactions a bit so the enemy cannot predict your next move. The more reactions you have stored, the less likely the enemy can force you into a trap.
If a kluth appears 300gu off your tail, and is not a dread, try to manuver to his tail. You will find it easy to do, and kluth have little firepower back there.
If it is a dread, full speed ahead, and dodge projectile shots while returning fire. ICC may have weaker aft arcs, but we still have more aft firepower than most.
And a note; Nearly ALL my advice is for piloting ICC small ships. There are different guidlines for dread combat. ICC station combat? DONT DO IT THEY BLOW!. I myself spend most of my time in cruisers and under. If its dread combat knowledge you seek, im afraid you have to find someone else.
[ This Message was edited by: *XO*Defiance{CM7} on 2011-09-30 07:46 ]
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Defiance and Opposition, a tribute to teamwork. I will remember always
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[ML]RogueAvengerTTV
Marshal
Joined: September 11, 2010
Posts: 300
From: England
| Posted: 2011-09-30 07:50
The only reason ICC dreads are bad is because everyone thinks they are when you have more than 2-3 i.e. 2 assault dreads and 1 combat can easily take a siphon with the help of ai and point jumping ...
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2011-09-30 09:49
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On 2011-09-30 07:50, RogueAvenger10 wrote:
The only reason ICC dreads are bad is because everyone thinks they are when you have more than 2-3 i.e. 2 assault dreads and 1 combat can easily take a siphon with the help of ai and point jumping ...
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lol.. So your saying that it takes 2AD 1CD some AI, and some lucky jumps to equal one siphon?
derp? 3+ of any ship is better than any one ship...
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Defiance and Opposition, a tribute to teamwork. I will remember always
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[ML]RogueAvengerTTV
Marshal
Joined: September 11, 2010
Posts: 300
From: England
| Posted: 2011-09-30 10:41
nope 1 ad vs 1 siphon the winner is the better skilled player
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Reznor
Marshal
Joined: March 29, 2010
Posts: 316
| Posted: 2011-09-30 13:45
ICC have 2 anti-kluth ships: The scout and the AD (AC is a bit too weak for general use) . Most people aren't ranked to fly AD, and the rest don't fly scouts.
I'd fly a scout if there was another AD around, but there rarely is. And even if there is, I ALWAYS get popped by the dread exploding when we take it down.
Sure, the pres loss is nonexistant, and the repair time also, but it takes several minutes to jump back where you were. I'd like a damage reduction from explosions for scouts, but that would never happen :/ . Used to be you could keep distance, but eccm isn't 1kgu anymore, so you have to be close.
Also: K'luth beams do LESS damage than human beams, unless the human ship is far away. Point black, human lasers outdamage kluth.
And for those new ICC complaining about K'luth: Be happy you weren't playing 6 months ago. K'luth were horrendously broken back then, with 2 AHR on dreads. They basically repaired full armor in a minute, and were back for more. Plus they could budget it by intentionally taking hull damage, now it gets used even with a random shot.
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