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In light of recent changes.... |
nicklane1
2nd Rear Admiral
Joined: October 03, 2009
Posts: 112
From: Eating your cheese behind you.
|  Posted: 2010-05-30 21:45
I entirely agree with leopard, ive played enough ugto vs luth to know it is MUCH easier for ugto then icc to deal with them. Ugto are fine vs luth, icc arent though. Luth jump, cloak, fly close, fire mass close range weapons, slaughter icc. The thing is, most icc use long range ships like MDs and MDs need the slots for ecm to make sure they arent spotted, making them not able to eccm ping. This is not the point though, something does need to be done about icc v luth specificly.
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2010-05-30 23:47
The idea isnt to give dessie dread killing strength. However, the hit and run faction should have the best small ships in the game, and the most limited numbers of big ships. This is backwards from what we have atm. ATM The Krill is I believe the best dread in the game, and our small ships are weaker in each equivalent class of ships to the humans.
The sensor and assault scouts are better than a fang.
Frigates are about even, Id say.
Dessies - combat dessie and and assault dessie. The Beak is so so, but its damages are too weak.
Cruiser - again, HC, TC, and AC rule this class. What we do have that is unique is tyhe Scarab with its mines. The rest are too energy deficient vs damage output for anyone to actually want to fly.
I dont know a better way to fix this aspect than the leveled weapons.
Again, the level of actual damage output would then be balanced by the number of gadgets on the ships. This was the way it was before.
And when we had issues with things such as pwnzor claws, we also had ecm forts and mines on claws. Also cl2k. Now that cross faction modding has been X'd out, this would be 1000 times less a problem.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-05-31 00:32
Please don't mention the Scarab Az.
It's the only cruiser that Kluth has with a chance and the power/ability to kill dreads and stations. And I can betcha most of these Hoonams don't like it at all.
They'll be calling to nerf it next if you continue to mention it.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo on 2010-05-31 01:28 ]
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-05-31 00:36
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On 2010-05-30 15:31, Starcommand of ICC *XO* wrote:
I would fully agree to pull the entire Kluth faction and replace them with a different variation on the MI.
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???
LOL. Do you even know what you're saying?
You can't just remove a faction that many players and fleets already have a stake in. We could just remove ICC entirely and move you guys over to UGTO. Get it? You don't nerf something just cos u can't deal with it.
Unite the human race, make you hug each other in harmonious reunification, and fight a common enemy (K'Luth)....
I bet that will finally stop your incessant whining....
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo on 2010-05-31 00:52 ]
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2010-05-31 00:48
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On 2010-05-30 23:47, Azreal wrote:
The idea isnt to give dessie dread killing strength. However, the hit and run faction should have the best small ships in the game, and the most limited numbers of big ships. This is backwards from what we have atm. ATM The Krill is I believe the best dread in the game, and our small ships are weaker in each equivalent class of ships to the humans.
The sensor and assault scouts are better than a fang.
Frigates are about even, Id say.
Dessies - combat dessie and and assault dessie. The Beak is so so, but its damages are too weak.
Cruiser - again, HC, TC, and AC rule this class. What we do have that is unique is tyhe Scarab with its mines. The rest are too energy deficient vs damage output for anyone to actually want to fly.
I dont know a better way to fix this aspect than the leveled weapons.
Again, the level of actual damage output would then be balanced by the number of gadgets on the ships. This was the way it was before.
And when we had issues with things such as pwnzor claws, we also had ecm forts and mines on claws. Also cl2k. Now that cross faction modding has been X'd out, this would be 1000 times less a problem.
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Exactly, Who does have enough rank to fly anyship would choise between beak,scarab or krill. There isnt much option to fly an adequate ship for kluth in every combat.
But why those ships are most selected to fly?
Answer is simple. Because they are energy effiecient and they have good fire power.
AM torpedos are too slow and they hardly do any damage. Energy comsuption on Am torps are horrible high. I believe am torpedo is the strongest within all the torps. So i guess proton and fusion torps way too sucky. But human torps at least hit at close range. Am torps miss at close range a huge dread.
I played this game in every version. Scale and claw somehow were the best ships to assault the dreads and run away. But after more than 8 years of Ds experience , if you ask me to compare claw and scale of today with earlier version , I would say : I wont fly nor of em for 100k credits. I had experience of doing 5% armor damage with claw's alpha on a battle dread and i aint flying it again.
Now in beta, they are taking some cannons of beak and replacing it with torps. As i heard krill wont be touched but SI will be. It may be fire rate and range reduction. Then Siphon and Mandy , nest, colony and hive will be directly effected from this change. Seems like it will be so hard to balance it. Then again , we may see alot of threads about how kluth got nerfed while human got buffed(100% posibility ).
Facts are visible to all of us.Sometimes we need to take out our uniforms and be objective about game balance. In every case of Icc shield boost i was there , supporting the icc members about it. Because as the enemy , i can see the difference fighting ugto and icc. ICC always is a easy enemy for kluth because of shield problem. But ugto isnt easy. You see, in this game there are a few things you can acumulate.
1- Repair rate.
2- Eccm.
3- Fire power.
Acumulative effects are difficult to balance. Developers need to think about future.
What will happen if 20 more ugto players reach to FA and decide to fly station along with those already station flyers? How can you counter the pinging when there are 50 enemies pinging you with 1 eccm in row? What will happen to an ICC player got fluxed 10 times in a large battle and lose every system device at 99% hull? or what about getting Elf'ed by 10 siphons and draining you to 0? Now the best ; when kluth will decide to fly 20 scarabs together and mine the whole area with 1500 mines and let you go nowhere closer to object you need to be at..
We gotta be objective.
-Pak
[ This Message was edited by: Pakhos on 2010-05-31 00:57 ]
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SPaRTaN Z
Chief Marshal
Joined: June 26, 2009
Posts: 235
| Posted: 2010-05-31 01:06
I feel for you's az,. and kluth,. majority of ppl don 't get it.
There is no balance atm for a large fleet of Kluth vs a large fleet of Ugto/icc.
Icc are worse.. their ships have more sensors than their ugto counter-parts in most cases, but the eccm from the fleet attacking kluth far outways the ecm the kluth can output,. for example say 10 kluth vs 10 ugto (the lesser sensor faction). Both fleets are "balanced" in terms of cruisers supps and dreads,.. . ALL 10 Kluth uncloak simultaneously to shoot,. tho it takes all 10 kluth 8 seconds to cloak, then decloak,... 16 seconds of not shooting for a kluth dread vs that numbers means death.,. ...
So as pakhos stated a month ago,. eccm effectiveness vs players needs to be staged 1 eccm = 1 - 2 eccm =1.9 3 eccm = 2.8 (Those numbers still won't be enough of a nerf),. in some form or another,. or counter double/triple ecm effectiveness for all factions.
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2010-05-31 01:22
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On 2010-05-30 11:14, Leopard wrote:
Also, I do NOT miss the days of pilots flying nothing but frigates and dessies. You guys do realize that the 481-483 period is when Darkspace hemmoraged most of its playerbase, right?
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Well I know in my case, as well as a few others, it was the incredibly overpowered bombing and the awful lag that made it damned near impossible to play that chased me away from the game. It wasn't small ships and it wasn't modding; I enjoyed both of those.
Lag wasn't just bad back then, and it wasn't just once in a while. It was awful and all the time even if there were periods that were relatively lag free. One of the old screenshots at MMORPG.com even shows someone saying "omg lag" because it was so prevalent and so bad. Then we wound up with bombs that could easily level planets, the MV constantly bombed to smithereens, and it was just frustrating to play.
This version is a massive improvement, but that doesn't mean I don't want to see further changes to ship layouts, removal of autoleveling of gadgets, and even reverting cloak to the old ecm/eccm system. We all have ideas we'd like to see.
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Max Kepler
Fleet Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: March 08, 2002
Posts: 589
From: ICS Victory
| Posted: 2010-05-31 02:05
In my opinion, the problem with the whole situation is how uber-powerful heavy beam weapons are. Small ships have two types of defense: low signature, and speed. Thus...
You can't fly a small ship against ANY faction without being jumped by a big ship and alphaed once, whereafter you are dead. Especially not if you are using ECCM. You can e-jump 1000gu away and survive (not if you are in a dictor field), but that's about it. Since ECM/ECCM are range-dependent, it would be nice if you could actually stay close to the fight and be effective, but again, this is difficult when people are flying EADs, ADs, or basically any K'luth dread. Similarly, if you want to keep your sig low, you cannot fly at any reasonable speed that avoids the big ships. Good pilots who spend a lot of time in scouts and frigates can make-do sometimes. But it's certainly not easy, and not as beneficial as it should be (again, because of the ECM/ECCM range-dependence).
I think torpedos should return as the most obviously powerful weapon. It seems ridiculous to me that beams, which are MOST effective against the small ships, have taken this role. The disadvantage to being in larger ships used to be that they were more vulnerable to torpedos; now it's merely an issue of maneuverabiliity and who-can-stay-on-who's-back (with the small ships rarely able to sustain it for long enough to do reasonable damage before they get beam-alphaed once and have to retreat).
It would also address some of the issues with Stationspace that people have been having. More powerful torps make flying a station a lot riskier.
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Lonectzn
Fleet Admiral
Joined: January 06, 2005
Posts: 202
| Posted: 2010-05-31 05:06
Actually core weapons currently have the top spot, by far. They're the new torps, leaving ships without them at a significant disadvantage.
Azreal, the K'luth destroyers and cruisers do have sufficient damage (on paper) for their roles, there's just a couple problems holding them back. For the destroyers, they are lacking some energy and manoeuvrability. One aux power gen and some slight tweaking (turn rate and acceleration) should do the trick there. Both the cruisers and destroyers suffer heavily from the disappointing performance of torpedoes, and the crushing effectiveness of core weapons. Torps could use an increase in speed and reduction in power use while core weapons a drastic reduction in speed.
Most small K'luth ships need to be within 200gu to deal any significant damage. They don't have ships like the heavy cruiser/bc which can sit out and effectively shoot sideways/backwards. Improving the torpedoes, manoeuverability, and reducing the amount of accurate damage dreads can dish (seriously wtf core weapons) would help make them more playable.
I'm pretty fine with the current state of ECCM, given the lack of alternatives. There's still no reward for people using small beacon fitted ships. It obviously doesn't work to force someone in a no or low pres ship just so the side can fight luth. Unless you're me and enjoy doing it 
[ This Message was edited by: Lonectzn on 2010-05-31 05:32 ]
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-05-31 05:34
In other words, leave the ships alone. Leave the weapons alone.
They might be skewed or unbalanced in certain ways.
But because of the situation as is, the game ends up more or less balanced...... WHEN, the numbers are more or less even.
It's only the numbers that make the difference.
UGTO kills all when they outnumber ICC and Kluth.
ICC kills all when they outnumber UGTO and Kluth
Kluth kills all when they outnumber Hoonams.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo on 2010-05-31 11:18 ]
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2010-05-31 05:43
actually, the balance at the moment is horrid.
Proven last night.
When Kluth outnumbers the enemy even a little, they will break out the dreads - the ships that a hit and run faction arent supposed to be in primarily. That is when we can sit at even an enemy planet and alpha like there's no tomorrow.
When the UGTO or ICC outnumber the Kluth, the only answer a Kluth has is small ships to avoid the eccm pings and the beacons and the dictor. Those small ships that I'm saying are really really pathetic.
And again, nobody is talking about a Claw with 10 tops and 15 rupters.
If the weapons were unleveled for Luth, then I would expect to see Claws with around 6 - 8 beams and maybe around 4 - 6 torps.
And currently, ELF still seems to drain more on recharge than it leeches from the enemy. I thought that was fixed? But that's a side issue, I guess.
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Xydes
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 07, 2009
Posts: 276
From: England
| Posted: 2010-05-31 06:09
I am in-agreement with everything Az says. Except I like my Brood. Demolish the Gang! And the Krill... well... thats a different forum post altogether.
-Valk
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Lonectzn
Fleet Admiral
Joined: January 06, 2005
Posts: 202
| Posted: 2010-05-31 06:57
Azreal when I'm in a claw or scale the problems I see are not damage, but the insane power issues and extremely long recovery time which means almost all your time is spent recharging. In a scarab, well I can happily fight almost anything if I play the cards right.
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Novacat
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache
| Posted: 2010-05-31 07:37
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On 2010-05-31 01:06, SPaRTaN Z wrote:
I feel for you's az,. and kluth,. majority of ppl don 't get it.
There is no balance atm for a large fleet of Kluth vs a large fleet of Ugto/icc.
Icc are worse.. their ships have more sensors than their ugto counter-parts in most cases, but the eccm from the fleet attacking kluth far outways the ecm the kluth can output,. for example say 10 kluth vs 10 ugto (the lesser sensor faction). Both fleets are "balanced" in terms of cruisers supps and dreads,.. . ALL 10 Kluth uncloak simultaneously to shoot,. tho it takes all 10 kluth 8 seconds to cloak, then decloak,... 16 seconds of not shooting for a kluth dread vs that numbers means death.,. ...
So as pakhos stated a month ago,. eccm effectiveness vs players needs to be staged 1 eccm = 1 - 2 eccm =1.9 3 eccm = 2.8 (Those numbers still won't be enough of a nerf),. in some form or another,. or counter double/triple ecm effectiveness for all factions.
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Spartan, Kluth-ICC Balance is hardly what you think it is. The problem is that electronic countermeasures do not stop a fleet of Krills/Siphons from just getting close, decloaking, and directly taking on the ICC whom usually fare poorly in a close-range slugfest.
I just participated in a battle yesterday where the Kluth wiped out an entire ICC Fleet around Ghext (which actually outnumbered the Kluth, but we had a lot of our pilots in cruisers and dessies while the Kluth were exclusively dreads), and this is with the planet having nearly two dozen weapon platforms and about 3-4 sensor platforms. The only time a Kluth ship recloaked during the whole encounter was to shake off missiles/fighters (missiles/fighters travel so slowly that even an 8 second cloak would easily do that job).
The only time Kluth started taking losses was after the UGTO jumped in with their armada and hit the Kluth in the back.
[ This Message was edited by: Leopard on 2010-05-31 07:43 ]
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2010-05-31 08:33
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On 2010-05-31 05:43, Azreal wrote:
And currently, ELF still seems to drain more on recharge than it leeches from the enemy. I thought that was fixed? But that's a side issue, I guess.
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ELF is fixed. Tested and verified many, many times.
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