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In light of recent changes.... |
Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
|  Posted: 2010-06-07 22:19
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On 2010-06-07 20:39, Lonectzn wrote:
Then, as always, we come back down to the question of how do you properly reward players for playing support roles like the beacon scout. It would be a bit rich to ask someone to get in one of those ships and then get almost nothing for their effort.
Imagine if whenever K'luth wanted to fight the other factions, a special non-combat ship was needed that one player would have to get out. However, you'd get no prestige for it. Who would want to play that ship? Who would decide who gets it out? Would you Azreal?
I would say first we need to fix that problem - whether pres is something shared or there is a grouping system, and see what impact it has on gameplay. We're so restricted to ships that either do damage or fix damage, that there is no room for much else.
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If you give some pres, or more pres for:
Scouts - successfully beaconing ships
Dictors - successfully keeping enemy ships in your dictor field by the second
Extractors/Engies - Mining resources
You will see more newer players hopping into these vital but non-combat roles willingly.
Right now, like Pakhos said, only vets who don't really need the pres anymore will be arsed to do this.
The rest of the players will be in combat, or supping.
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ssj4megaman
Grand Admiral
Joined: January 06, 2003
Posts: 54
From: San Diego
| Posted: 2010-06-08 02:27
When grouping gets started, it will alleaviate alot of the issues with people fielding "non prestige" ships... but when that happends, it will be even worst for us luth. So for grouping to happen, cloak may have to change to an ecm/eccm model or something else entirely.
Basically you will see noobs piloting scouts galore because they will be making very good prestige based on the bigger ships and we will be in the hole even more. No amount of cloak can stand up to few people in scouts (ecm), we might as well not even cloak or even better, not even fight.
One question i have is WHY do i have to wait from cloaking for my sig to raise to be able to e-jump? Regular jumping, fighting i can understand, but to e-jump that makes no sense.
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Iwancoppa
Fleet Admiral
Joined: November 15, 2008
Posts: 709
| Posted: 2010-06-08 03:56
K'luth dont seam to get owned mutch more then normal now then they did a few months back. just leave it alone, ship configs are bein changed
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2010-06-08 05:46
How would you know? When are u in game?
No, the EW slots need to be nerfed back on the larger combat vessels.
Grouping is up to devs. Been in the works for at least 2 years now. This should not wait for the grouping system, this is an issue NOW.
And Lark, from what I have seen, few ICC know what they are doing with ping. It isnt that it isnt effective, its just the pilots arent effective mostly.
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2010-06-08 07:04
pinging is only good for telling us that there is in fact something there. half the time we already know that theres something there, we just need to know more precisely. most of the time we get hits on kluth ships under cloak its because they arent taking enough evasive action. its possible to "disappear" even in a dread. one eccm ping will not give us enough time to target and shoot you. sometimes a ping doesnt even tell me where the enemy ship is because my camera was facing the wrong direction, thats how quick it is.
i think what youre actually experiencing is, someone will ping, and when a ping hits a target everyone turns their eccm on. personally if i have more than 1 eccm on my ship i leave them all on so that a kluth that decloaks cant get away as easily, and leave it to ships with 1 eccm to ping.
But anyways, what is the issue precisely? im getting killed plenty by luthies, luthies dont seem to die nearly as much as we do when we fight them. maybe your experiences with UGTO are different? im guessing by your statement that ICC isnt using eccm effectively that despite us having many EW slots we arent the cause of your consternation over this.
as far as i personally can tell kluth is doing fine. sometimes you get pinged when youre trying to manoeuver into an ambush.... but thats fair isnt it? im pretty sure it is.
although... as an idea, itd be interesting if eccm pinging had a random range attributed to it, from 0 to X gu. then it wouldnt be a given that a ping would find something nearby. would that make you happier?
[ This Message was edited by: Lark of Serenity on 2010-06-08 07:08 ]
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
| Posted: 2010-06-08 07:36
How about Kluth has the same speed as MI to be complete hit-and-run faction?
How about Kluth has ship that can launch anti-beacon to Kluth? I don't find any reason for Kluth to has ship that can fire beacon. Note that anti-beacon only destroyes the beacon's signal on the ship, it doesn't low the signature to -20.
How about missiles and cannons of Kluth has faster charge rate? Ganglia doesn't work as effectively as MD does. The range can be nerfed but please increase charge rate of missiles.
How about broaden the angle of fire on Kluth ship? It's amusing Kluth is strongest at close range but you can't do anything to ship 50gu behind. Kluth short range wep should need the support from wide angle.
And how about cloak won't set the signal to 0 when ECM active? Even you have 3 ECM on, but if you cloak, everyone can ping you. When cloak and ECM on, the signature must has a minus signal, not zero.
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Novacat
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache
| Posted: 2010-06-08 07:41
Azreal, rather than automatically assuming that ICC do not know what they are doing, and UGTO do, which is as stupid as saying the Kluth faction are all a bunch of noobs, Consider that maybe the ICC are actually having problems vs Kluth.
ICC's Problems with Kluth is by the time they get close enough for pinging to be effective, Kluth have no need for their cloak, they can just own the entire ICC force without having to cloak again until after the ICC are either dead or jumped away.
In the words of Kenny_Naboo, "In a world of jump drives, "Long range faction" just does not cut it."
I can consider that maybe the Kluth are having problems with UGTO, but this makes it even harder to fix than people can even imagine. You have to figure out ways to buff Kluth vs UGTO that will not affect them vs ICC, and you will have to figure out ways to buff ICC vs Kluth, without affecting their performance vs UGTO.
[ This Message was edited by: Leopard on 2010-06-08 07:45 ]
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Lonectzn
Fleet Admiral
Joined: January 06, 2005
Posts: 202
| Posted: 2010-06-08 08:49
To fix the ECCM problem you just need to split the pinging side of ECCM into a separate module. So, you have your standard ECCM which just raises general signatures but no longer reveals cloaked ships, and the "Active Sonar" type module which basically just pings and that's it, with a long cool down. People would then have to choose which one they want rather than do both.
Not only do you solve that problem, you also can also then remove the cool down from normal ECCM and avoid having a negative impact on its other uses. Plus you have the benefit of being able to tweak the two modules separately as needed.
The most robust way of doing this would be to prevent ships de-cloaking to signature changes overall (used to be like that), and then just give the pinging module a separately-implemented way of revealing cloaked ships. This way you prevent certain exploits (sensor base disable/enable pinging) and give finer control over how the ships are de-cloaked, which are de-cloaked and for how long.
[ This Message was edited by: Lonectzn on 2010-06-08 08:51 ]
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2010-06-08 09:14
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On 2010-06-08 07:36, Diep Luc wrote:
And how about cloak won't set the signal to 0 when ECM active? Even you have 3 ECM on, but if you cloak, everyone can ping you. When cloak and ECM on, the signature must has a minus signal, not zero.
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From what I've been told the ping effect from ECCM was originally a bug that was just never fixed because it was generally accepted as a way to counter cloaking. It wouldn't matter how low your sig is, you'd still be revealed by pinging.
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On 2010-06-08 08:49, Lonectzn wrote:
To fix the ECCM problem you just need to split the pinging side of ECCM into a separate module. So, you have your standard ECCM which just raises general signatures but no longer reveals cloaked ships, and the "Active Sonar" type module which basically just pings and that's it, with a long cool down. People would then have to choose which one they want rather than do both.
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Which is also why that wouldn't work. Seperate ECCM/active ping modules would be nice though, if the current ECCM module was just renamed and had the signature increase removed and a new ECCM module created with only that part of it.
.....And speaking of ECM, why does it lower sig on enemy ships? You'd think if you're creating electronic interference that you'd know your own frequency and be able to set your own scanners to see through it. I can see why this game's ECCM would raise the sig of your own ships though, since it seems to be more like a high powered short range active signal rather than true ECCM that just jams enemy sensors.
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Lonectzn
Fleet Admiral
Joined: January 06, 2005
Posts: 202
| Posted: 2010-06-08 09:42
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On 2010-06-08 09:14, Talien wrote:
Which is also why that wouldn't work. Seperate ECCM/active ping modules would be nice though, if the current ECCM module was just renamed and had the signature increase removed and a new ECCM module created with only that part of it.
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As far as I remember, the bug was fixed. Certainly I do seem to remember at some time we had cloaks not broken by ECCM.
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2010-06-08 11:07
Nope, it is the same bug as before. THey only added cooldown timer on it. Now the problem isn't the cloak itself. Careful here, the problem is caused by a ECCM bug. We dont ask developers to fix cloak.
To do so ; Reworking whole EW system would be much more easier than implying a new cloak system.
Pinging , somehow , surely needed for human factions to counter against kluth and believe me I totaly support it. What i dont support is the IDEA of larger player base to "fleet ping" with "accumalative eccm " against "non-accumulative cloak" system. IMO, this will cause a bigger problem than now in near future. Do we agree on this?
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2010-06-08 11:46
yep. which is why i like my idea of the random range on eccm, quick patch would do it i think?
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Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
| Posted: 2010-06-08 12:25
Pinging is technically a bug, yes, which we just made a feature and then added measures to limit its effectiveness (namely a recharge timer). As mentioned, we'd have to redo the entire cloak or EW system to remove it.
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2010-06-08 17:56
Never mind. I guess its ok for 5 or 6 human dreads to be able to bring 6 - 15 eccm slots to ping with to battle vs K'Luth. Scouts are somehow still completely viable, and if not, then we'll just say it's the grouping system's fault for not having created itself yet.
In fact, since ICC doesnt know how to ping (at least I havent seen one refute Lark's attempt at telling me how they ping, which if true means they in fact do not know how to ping) perhaps we should just force a decloak on all K'Luth ships when they are in range with any of their weapons. This would help us balance ICC to Kluth as well as what UGTO seems to be.
Perhaps its nice and cozy in there with your heads in the sand. I guess I'll have to give it a try.
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Winters Rapture
Fleet Admiral
United Nations Space Command
Joined: December 09, 2007
Posts: 355
| Posted: 2010-06-08 22:20
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On 2010-06-08 05:46, Azreal wrote:
Grouping is up to devs. Been in the works for at least 2 years now. This should not wait for the grouping system, this is an issue NOW.
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Grouping, I remember when that was first brought up serously. They had a single dev devoted to working on it and everything, it was even looking promising. Then that dev dropped off the face of the earth and now the whole 'grouping' and 'mission' thing just hangs over us, taunting us.
I would like to serously know whats up with that, is there a new person working on that or is it another back-burner thing?
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