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In light of recent changes.... |
Sixkiller
Marshal
Courageous Elite Commandos
Joined: May 11, 2005
Posts: 1786
From: Netherlands
|  Posted: 2010-05-30 15:20
I dont really see the problem. If i remember correctly, the battle station and battle dread only have 1 eccm, with a massive cooldown. I am not certain how much the SS has, this might be tweaked to 2 perhaps? The Command Station has 4 or something, but then again, i personely feel that the UGTO Command Station is really pretty useless when you want to fight. And even then, the cooldown is so high, you'd need like 4 of those just to have the effect of a single scout. (And, 1 scout + 3 Battle Stations would outdamage the 4 CS bigtime)
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Novacat
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache
| Posted: 2010-05-30 15:26
the ICC SS can hold up to 4, the Command Carrier can hold 3, donno about any other ship.
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Starcommander
Marshal
Joined: December 14, 2005
Posts: 579
From: In your base, stealing your cookies
| Posted: 2010-05-30 15:31
Thing is Cloak is a vary tricky beast to balance, especially when one side has it and the others don't. Would be a different thing if each side had a ship or two that could.
When ICC outnumber Kluth, cloak is just a hindrance to the inevitable death you will be getting. When Kluth outnumber ICC, cloak is an over-powered device. Balancing a game AND player numbers is a nigh impossible task, one that must be done with precision that won't upset the basket.
I would fully agree to pull the entire Kluth faction and replace them with a different variation on the MI. One that still plays LIKE the Kluth (close combat) with lots of beams and long range torps, and a few ships that can cloak. However that would bring stagnation to the game, having ICC and basically a UGTO and UGTO2 faction isn't all that great and is hard to make a visible line between the 3.
Reducing the number of ECCM per a ship? What 1 ECCM is too much for you? You do know that every ICC ship (except the combat dessy) has 1 sensor slot. Some have more (MD has 3), but the combat dread, HC, AC, AD and LS all have just ONE slot. In a massive cluster of ships ya thats a lot of ECCM not to mention the random station or two that has more, and it is difficult to approach such a fleet if you are outnumbered. UGTO on the other hand has less sensor slots on ships (many have none at all like the EAD). The way ICC can counter a cloak is to have all that sensor equipment, UGTO has to rely on beacons mostly as even there sensor ships has 1-2 less slots then its ICC counterpart.
As I said, cloak is hard to balance properly, when its outnumbered its not enough, when it outnumbers its too much.
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Rebellion
Marshal
Faster than Light
Joined: June 20, 2009
Posts: 730
From: sol
| Posted: 2010-05-30 16:38
Get rid of ping for all i care. But we need a counter that wasent orignaly a bug....like: depth charge thingys that when thay det thay uncloak ships or a thing sorta like headlights that may iluminate cloaked k luth ships or {insert your Idea here}
Just some ideas....Let the argueing commence.
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Sops
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 07, 2004
Posts: 490
| Posted: 2010-05-30 17:03
I want to know why the problem must be with UGTO/ICC and why these factions need to be further motivated to fly smaller ships. Yet no one seems to suggest that K'Luth could fly scouts and give ECM cover to their own players.
From what I have seen UGTO/ICC fly more diverse fleets then K'Luth.
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2010-05-30 17:33
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On 2010-05-30 17:03, Sops wrote:
I want to know why the problem must be with UGTO/ICC and why these factions need to be further motivated to fly smaller ships. Yet no one seems to suggest that K'Luth could fly scouts and give ECM cover to their own players.
From what I have seen UGTO/ICC fly more diverse fleets then K'Luth.
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This points out exactly how poor reading comprehension can be now days.
I have several times now seen players lament there is not enough reason for a Kluth to fly the smaller ship. Look at Lark's post. On one hand, says that we dont fly small ships. On the next hand, states that we should have no reason to fly small ships.
By removing two dreads, and unleveling luth weapons to class, you do effectively push them back into smaller ships. The issue the small ships have is damage. The energy management in most of them suck to no end. But if the trade off is effective damage rate than we would gladly take it.
Everyone complains about the Krill. Well, there's a reason we fly it. As I stated in the first post, the HIT AND RUN faction is supposed to have small agile hard hitting ships that cant take any real incoming damage without having to jump or cloak. That means small fast agile ships that pack a decent punch. The human cruisers and dessies are more effective than ours are, and this is absolutely backwards 180 degrees.
If they simply removed our leveled weapons, and balanced our damage by #gadgets, then Kluth is actually much easier to balance.
By the way, I was in a battle earlier. Just started quick - counting the number of EW slots on the various dreads, cruisers and the scout I saw. I saw 18 including the scout. If you unleveled our weapons, and removed slots (some) from the big ships again, we automatically end up with small ships being used more intricately.
By the way. I would also be 100% for the removal of stations from the hit and run faction as well, in addition to all I have previously stated, and personally I think that it really needs to be done.
ps Sops. ECM to a -1000 wouldnt keep a K'Luth from being pinged. Ping is not effected by the signature of the cloaked ship whatsoever. So the idea of a scout running ecm is not a valid counterpoint to the main issue - entirley too much offensive EW on the big ships.
[ This Message was edited by: Azreal on 2010-05-30 17:42 ]
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Sops
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 07, 2004
Posts: 490
| Posted: 2010-05-30 17:48
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On 2010-05-30 17:33, Azreal wrote:
By removing two dreads, and unleveling luth weapons to class, you do effectively push them back into smaller ships. The issue the small ships have is damage. The energy management in most of them suck to no end. But if the trade off is effective damage rate than we would gladly take it.
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Are you assuming I support this idea?
My comment was largely in response to this
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| Cloak looks powerful when you're against it, but when you have it it really feels close sometimes, and difficult to properly cloak away due to ECCM pinging - and kids, it's no fun taking eight seconds to uncloak before firing, you usually break into hull before anything. |
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Luth would be able to uncloak faster if they had a few scouts flying with ECM.
Edit
He was talking about uncloaking before an attack. This is not normally when K'Luth players get pinged. Further if we are talking about changes to the game then why assume ping can not be changed also?
[ This Message was edited by: Sops on 2010-05-30 17:59 ]
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Novacat
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache
| Posted: 2010-05-30 17:59
Azreal, your suggestion would not actually fix anything... just that Kluth players would figure out which of the dessies/cruisers/dreadnoughts gives the biggest bang for the buck, and spam those instead (I do remember the old claw from, I donno if it was 1.480 or 1.4 or 1.3 or what, that was heavily spammed back in the old days when it was insanely effective). The ultimate problem we are facing is that Kluth fleets can focus entirely on offensive firepower. They do not really need sups, they do not really need EW, they do not really need dictors (in fact I have not seen a luth dictor ever since I came back). They just need combat ships, lots of combat ships, and nothing but combat ships.
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Tommas [ USF HunnyBunny ]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: February 04, 2006
Posts: 581
From: Norway
| Posted: 2010-05-30 18:03
I always found it strange that eccm pinging works 100%, what i would like to see is that the eccm ping raises the sig say 10 points. Then it would mather how much ecm a kluth ship has on. If the sig is 11 then ping wouldn't work. If its 9 then the pinging works. This will make ecm/eccm a valuable factor.
This would make it more interesting when Ugto/icc brings in ecm ships into battle. Instead of running around untouchable they now make an significant negative influence in the battle. It would also make person not so hasty just to ping. They need to have the eccm on to raise the sig.
Ultimate then kluth can use smaller ships like scouts to raise their ecm when going into battle so we wont be so vulnerable against ping. And ofc the counter of eccm scouts etc.
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Novacat
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 30, 2001
Posts: 2337
From: Starleague Cache
| Posted: 2010-05-30 18:04
That is actually a really good idea.
But I would also like to see 'Stealth modules', or a special ECM mode that, instead of creating stealth (negative sig) in a certain radius, it only reduces the signature of the ship that has it equipped. Sort of like how Scanners only raises the signature of the ship doing the scanning. I would hate to get yelled at by my teammates because I decided to use my ECM-equipped Command Carrier in battle (even if we are only fighting UGTO).
[ This Message was edited by: Leopard on 2010-05-30 18:08 ]
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-Daedalus-
Grand Admiral
Joined: September 26, 2006
Posts: 549
| Posted: 2010-05-30 18:42
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On 2010-05-30 13:22, Sauur wrote:
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On 2010-05-30 12:32, Daedalus wrote:
I just watched a kluth dread kill one after 1 full blast.
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WTH is it with u peon's and what u thought u saw. Swap factions take out a bl'dy platform with one hit with a dread and then post. Put some bl'dy facts up!
Until then ... !
Sick of copping nerfs çause u fill'n ur pants with fudge over what u 'think' u know!
Edit: "oops typed a bad word""
[ This Message was edited by: Sauur on 2010-05-30 13:25 ]
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Wow someone needs to take the game less seriously. Maybe go outside once and awhile.
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-Daedalus-
Grand Admiral
Joined: September 26, 2006
Posts: 549
| Posted: 2010-05-30 18:44
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On 2010-05-30 16:38, Fleet Admiral CRAZY45 wrote:
Get rid of ping for all i care. But we need a counter that wasent orignaly a bug....like: depth charge thingys that when thay det thay uncloak ships or a thing sorta like headlights that may iluminate cloaked k luth ships or {insert your Idea here}
Just some ideas....Let the argueing commence.
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Platforms that have a decloak ring around them. Say 200gu. if a kluth ship goes within that ring they decloak. It would allow non-kluth to make sometype of defence and allow kluth to see where not to go and something they could shoot.
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Bardiche
Chief Marshal
Joined: November 16, 2006
Posts: 1247
| Posted: 2010-05-30 19:07
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On 2010-05-30 17:48, Sops wrote:
Quote:
| Cloak looks powerful when you're against it, but when you have it it really feels close sometimes, and difficult to properly cloak away due to ECCM pinging - and kids, it's no fun taking eight seconds to uncloak before firing, you usually break into hull before anything. |
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Luth would be able to uncloak faster if they had a few scouts flying with ECM.
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| Sops wrote:
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| blah blah ICC and UGTO fly more diverse fleets blah blah |
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I never did say that moving the EW equipment to smaller vessels would affect only UGTO and ICC, did I? K'Luth vessels employ EW as well. Do they fly small vessels? Yes, they quite do. Stingers and like Destroyers are used for strike-and-slink-away maneuvres.
And, before you start throwing a fit because it is a player currently aligned with the K'Luth faction suggesting it would be nice to make flying small ships more viable for the higher ranked players...
... I'd like to take a moment to point out that I have multiple alts on all factions, and mainly play ICC.
That K'Luth field a lot of big ships is indeed known. That small ships are presently an adequate counter to cloak is already known.: the Beacon Scout and Picket/Escort are the best at countering the K'Luth cloak.
These ships are quite useful, yet not regularly deployed. People prefer pinging in their Dreadnoughts. Even if a single Scout would greatly detract from K'Luth's combat efficiency, people are shying away from using it.
Taking away the EW from Dreadnoughts, including K'Luth ones, and fitting smaller vessels specifically for EW makes them more valuable, and as a result I am positing that it will further give incentive to fly small ships.
If the K'Luth choose not to counter-act the electronic warfare brought about by humans, they invite high signature and long cloak times upon themselves. If prestige is shared due to the grouping system, pray tell what should stop a K'Luth player from fielding a Scout to assist in ECMing the fleet?
I mentioned already the model would be incomplete until a grouping system, and never specified a faction to be forced into smaller ships - because I held a good faith belief that players would derive that naming no faction equals implying each faction.
That assumption is not perfect, I now see, but I hope this cleanly clears up the matter on my intentions.
I long for a DarkSpace where fleet combat is not the sum of Dreadnoughts and Stations, but the sum of a fleet working together, by means of intelligence measures, anti-intelligence measures and leadership. I want Dreadnoughts to be the power in a fleet, but not the main component.
I want a Battle Cruiser to be able to ping where the Dreads cannot, and a Proboscis able to provide EW cover where all other vessels fail.
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2010-05-30 19:11
okay, i see, az wants to take out the heavy ships from luth because they are so immobile as to be ineffective for hit and run tactics.
that is a valid point to some degree. on the other hand it is possible for a luth dread to cloak and evade fire, so im not 100% sure about that.
i also think unscaling weapons would be a bad idea. again, we had strong kluth dessies in the past - it was a worse imbalance in the game because they were so difficult to hit yet had dread-like firepower.
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Starcommander
Marshal
Joined: December 14, 2005
Posts: 579
From: In your base, stealing your cookies
| Posted: 2010-05-30 20:28
Quote:
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On 2010-05-30 19:11, Lark of Serenity wrote:
i also think unscaling weapons would be a bad idea. again, we had strong kluth dessies in the past - it was a worse imbalance in the game because they were so difficult to hit yet had dread-like firepower.
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Agree! This is why scaling was put in, in the first place, although I wish I could level the guns myself instead of an auto leveling.
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WH 40k armies, Grey Knights, Dark Angles, Imperial Guard (Vostroyan First Born) and Orks.
There is a thin line between knowing when to give up and when to try harder.
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