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Too many big ships aka DreadStation Space |
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Joined: December 18, 2009
Posts: 70
|  Posted: 2010-02-08 17:00
this is often the case in icc, tho they may not have that many players on all the time..
the ratio of capital ship and station is nearly always the same. usualy 2-3 little guys per capital ship.
that being said..
i feel like limiting pple on capital ship deployment will be a big big mistake.
You CAN! kill dreads with 2-3 combat dessies, or 2 heavy cruisers, or 4 sencor corvettes.
and there aint much a dread can do about it,, cept jump away.
you have to be good at dodging first. but hey nothing is easy.
everyone you see in those stations went thru the exact same stuff you did.
cept maby coombi,  maby he was the first to terrorise younglings.
point being, ive seen pple over come dreads and stations with lesser ships.
all ships in DS are designed to take out ships of higher class than itself, usualy up to 2 classes.
I have even seen many times where if the enemy did not have dreads and stations, ICC would pull all cruiser and below to entertain the other teams.
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Sops
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 07, 2004
Posts: 490
| Posted: 2010-02-08 17:29
I have an idea, instead of focusing on making dreads harder to get, lets focus on making other ships more fun to use. Note, I did not say lets make other ships more useful, I said lets make them more [u]fun.[/u]
I see Dark Space as something like this.
Station v Station = Fun
Dread v Dread = Lots of fun
Cruiser v Cruiser = Kind of fun
Destroyer v Destroyer = Almost fun
Frigate v Frigate = Not fun
Scout v Scout = Pointless
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The Fridge
Chief Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: December 13, 2008
Posts: 559
From: In Your Fridge, Eating your Foods.
| Posted: 2010-02-08 17:44
Fraction Ship Breakdown*
Well Kluth has Dreads + Dessies - Odd scarab.
Uggies usually field Station + Dreads + Suppy
ICC field Stations/ Dreads/ Cruisers/ Suppy, a few scouts and dessies.
That's what i've seen in the last month at least
[ This Message was edited by: The Fridge on 2010-02-08 17:49 ]
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FA-Opposition
Fleet Admiral
Joined: August 26, 2007
Posts: 12
| Posted: 2010-02-08 17:45
ok i dont know much about other factions but as icc if you get a combat dessy or a Heavy cruser you can do pritty well for your self the only problem is you dont have enough amo but at the very least you can bring the edge that is needed to you dread welding frinds. i reamember the day when me and def were in a Combat dessies and we were scared of nothing one we learn right tactics we would take on any thing in are path and the only reason we did not kill anything was the amo wons again but it did not stop us from taking out all the armour and some hull before renforce ments arived. also if you have a smaller ship you are the most likly to be able to trake the enimy. now the in the cas of the kluth your small ships seem to not be very good becouse of the need to get close. now makeing the ship yard take res to spawn ship is not my favoret idea also planet are alread easy enough to take expecaly if you have no opposition then five small frigs can take an etire galixy in 20 mins easy. so making the need to add mining is dum. now i dont hate this entirly becouse of people ship yarding all the time this could help stop that but maybe make it only need a % of the ship original cost and thin up the ability of the mining bases and thin i think you will have something. now as for the reason amarica does not just nuke everything is not the cost becouse the war we are in would have ended long ago and saved us much money if we just nuked them in the first place. the real reason is we dont wish to start nukely war and end up destroying every thing.
sorry for the spelling i was on a rant and did not have the time to fix it.
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Sauur
Chief Marshal
Praetorian Wolves
Joined: November 30, 2004
Posts: 475
| Posted: 2010-02-09 02:51
Quote:
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On 2010-02-08 15:43, Pakhos wrote:
Yes, Icc does that..
Should we do a cruiser party?
What about ugto?
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We had a little (5-6 ship) cruiser party on K'luth several weeks ago - on the offensive they were very effective and a great deal of fun. Kept the enemy spinning on their heels.
Though standing ground and defending assets such as planets or stations they fell very short of the mark and were pretty much ineffective.
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2010-02-09 20:03
Quote:
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On 2010-02-08 16:08, Sens wrote:
The idea is to increase the importance of planets as mining outposts, instead of the countless depot and defense base templates we see currently. More mining = less defense. In turn, this results in a more dynamic MV with planets changing hands more often and more easily. That is not to say however, there won't be any pure defense planets.
As for the resource cost, we haven't released the full details as of yet; but the idea is to promote teamwork not only in combat, but logistics as well. i.e. do we really need 6 EADs or should we settle for one EAD and a support fleet? Ultimately, you will be able to spawn whatever at your leisure, it will just take longer to get to the front line. Remember all those "useless" home systems? Not any more.
Please keep in mind that what we say isn't always face value. There will always be changes necessary to facilitate new features or alterations to the current system. You may find many flaws of the top of your head, but rest assured we are also aware. So don't jump to conclusions but feel free to add constructive criticism.
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It's good that you're aware of the of the possible flaws; just remember that it will be frustrating to players if they cannot fly the ship they want because other people used up the resources.
I'm just hoping the idea of "logistics" isn't limited resources to a point where people are forced to fly ships they don't want to fly. It's OK to fly a supply ship if you want to supply, or a cruiser if you want a smaller ship, but it's not OK to fly one because someone used up the resources you were gonna use for your dread and now you're stuck. Always keep that in mind 
"Settling" for 1 EAD and a support fleet is much worse if that settling is forced due to resource limits, or we will wind up with people sitting at the GARAGE screen all waiting till they have the resources they need.
(it will also seriously screw up scenario, so I seriously suggest not having ships use up resources in scenario)
It's also going to be a real pain if players can't spawn any ship they want at their home system gate, and I [i]don't]/i] mean logging on to their home server, spawning there, then flying through the gate into Sag. If terran and arid shipyards are required for dreads and stations (meaning can't spawn from the gate), it's going to be a problem when a faction loses them and are forced to log into a separate server to spawn. If they can spawn at their home system gate instead, it's much friendlier.
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Sens [R33]
Admiral
Joined: September 27, 2008
Posts: 1020
From: Edge of th...
| Posted: 2010-02-09 21:48
You see, the enemy has the same problem. Think; how well are are two stations going to fare against two dreads or one dread against three cruisers? For the cost of one larger ship, you can buy two or more of a smaller one. In some cases, spawning one station may block every other player from coming into that system directly. With the consequences, we hope this will balance out player fleets. This is also a rather specific case under the planned system, and in some cases, fast deployment is entirely possible, even on barren shipyards. Of course, for now you're just going to have to trust us. It won't be anything terribly new, but it is sure as hell gonna be different from what it is now.
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Not validated
Joined: December 18, 2009
Posts: 70
| Posted: 2010-02-09 22:26
Quote:
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On 2010-02-09 21:48, Sens wrote:
You see, the enemy has the same problem. Think; how well are are two stations going to fare against two dreads or one dread against three cruisers? For the cost of one larger ship, you can buy two or more of a smaller one. In some cases, spawning one station may block every other player from coming into that system directly. With the consequences, we hope this will balance out player fleets. This is also a rather specific case under the planned system, and in some cases, fast deployment is entirely possible, even on barren shipyards. Of course, for now you're just going to have to trust us. It won't be anything terribly new, but it is sure as hell gonna be different from what it is now.
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am i the only one disturbed by this trian of thought?
not being able to spawn the ship you want WILL hurt the players. You are taking the rank of GA and make it worth even less than it is now.
there is plenty of fleet balance already as ICC, i dont know about UGTO or Kluth..
but lets look at it like this.. The bomber dread is the main bombing ship of ICC.. the system as your currently discribing will hinder spawning this ship..
and all the kluth cruisers suck. so forcing them out of their dreads... i bet would kill them.
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Challenger
Marshal
Joined: March 28, 2002
Posts: 886
| Posted: 2010-02-09 22:32
Why try and fix something that is not broken? Be honest the only people that are affected now are the newer players that have to fly around in detroyers or smaller. Or a race that has fewer players on then a different race.
I say to bad for them, I cannot think of another game that I have had to pay for in the past to play where I was limited to what I was able to utilize in game just because other people could not use the same things I was using.
I remember at a time when smaller ships did do a lot of damage and it pissed a lot of people off. When a group of people would take escort destroyers or assault destroyers out and they would be yelled at by everyone on the server and the game was never any fun. for current real life application should a few patrol boats be able to take a battleship down? No I dont think so. I say the balance now is fine and if the newer people have a problem with that way things are then they should stick to the senerio servers and it is incentive for them to rank up and pay for the game to get the bigger better ships. There is nothing wrong with incentive. The game is fun now for most people so dont take that way!! Darkspace is riddled with a history of inbalance and issues. I urge you to look into its past and remember how it was when all these rules that you are talking about now were put into effect in the past. I remember the days of sitting at a planet iwth 6 or 7 other ships mining a planet waiting to get bigger ships. People logging in without popping out into space first to see what is going on and they just spawn a ship and take resources that others have been trying to mine for minutes or even hours. That was a infair system with many problems and I would hate for it to go back to that.
Why should people be forced to use teamwork if they would rather work alone? If i want to grab a dread and fly out into space and pick my own battles I should be able to do that without worrying about loosing my ship and having to fly across the entire MV to bring another dread into the fight. Why should I or anyone else with sufficient rank be forced to fly ships other then what they want/deserve to fly. What is the point in paying for a game that forces you to do that? I understand there are not a whole lot of people like me who have been playing for a decade but even people who have been playing solid for a couple of months and can get into dreads, you will be taking away from them. Just think about it. I know everyone wants it to be fair for everyone but it isnt going to happen.
Take another game for example WOW (even though I do not even play it) if you are level 10 character would you PVP a player that is level 50? No that is just common sence. If people do not have common sence here and try to jump a dread with a frigit well then they will get what they deserve and it is up to them to learn from their mistake in doing that.
Also it is extremely frustrating for anyone in a dread/station to loose to a couple of destroyers. And yes that is what is proposed by a few of you (by making smaller ships more useful). why should a unsubbed 2 week old player be able to take on a dread? How balanced or fair is that to us vets? or not even vets but those people who work hard to get their bigger ships.
I will shut up now I feel like Demorian with a long drawn out post. But one more time I urge you to look into Darkspaces past and realise that what you propose will just cause as many problems as there are now.
[ This Message was edited by: Challenger on 2010-02-09 23:13 ]
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2010-02-09 23:07
Welcome to the reason Darkspace will never go anywhere. And another long post.
People like the big ships, everyone wants a big ship, and everyone will get that big ship so they can be better than all those poor bastards not in one. And the majority of those poor bastards leave because no one likes dieing without a chance in hell.
Sooy to remind everyone but this is a PvP game. You know, player, versus player. You know, you notice something very interesting in every other game with PvP. Well the successful ones.
Generally, they have game rules and mechanics in place so that people of roughly the same level will fight each other so they are on an even playing field. Well in Darkspace that kind of got fudged since we seemed to think that there would be just so many new players and that getting to your first Dreadnaught was difficult enough that there would always be more smaller ships than big ones.
That was the whole idea anyways. Thats how it works. Except it doesn't.
So now you have the problem. The problem being there are too many chiefs and not enough indians.
So you have this really really top heavy game where honestly, new players don't stand a chance in hell except those determined few that stick around.
So let me illuminate - once again, I swear I've made a post like this a hundred times - that Darkspace PvP, to work, has to put every combat capable ship on a level playing field, and instead of higher rank = better ship it should mean higher rank = more options.
That is, every ship has its role, no one ship better than another, no one ship best for all situations. Now if that doesn't sound good to you read it slower and more carefully, head your face in a window, and then read it again. If it still doesn't sound good, then stop reading here..
Now if it does sound good consider this. If every ship has its role, and its good at it, and no other ship is good at that role but its not best at everything, then doesn't that mean everyone can play the ship they want to?
Yeah it does. And since people like options (like maybe you want to fly a bigger ship today), people still sub because maybe they need a different ship for the situation. Thats the ticket. Thats the idea. And thats kind of how it used to be.
Seriously, you didn't enter the MV or scenario in 1.480 without asking Whats needed? So satisfying. Mmm. Oh yeah, more logic time.
This is a pretty good argument in itself but it would require really just redoing the whole system. And I doubt Drafell wants to do that considering how much time and effort he put it into this one. Yeah, so don't bet on it.
And I can't seriously consider that the current system works because Dreadnaughts are better than everything, and get enough Stations around and they are even worse.
There is no point to fielding cruisers when you can throw around Dreads except for the complete novelty of it. And please, don't hammer me with "Well this one time we got a bunch of cruisers out.." because people have notriously bad memories of the other hundred times you didn't.
Don't even start me on small ship combat. Its a joke. Too slow, too unexciting. At least Dreadnaughts have that going for them that it doesn't take ten minutes to kill another ship. There is about as much incentive to have a duel between destroyers as there is to have poison ivy rubbed all over my crotch.
So consider this, if you have infact read this far. Do you want DS to die the cold, lonely death, with the same twenty or so people who for some reason have some kind of obsession with the same battles between the same ships. Or would you like some variety? Some tactics thrown in, some strategy, some actual life thrown into each unexpected encounter?
Sure, your dreadnaught might lose to that destroyer, but thats because you suck, and I can live with that, because no game should ever reduce itself to the lowest common denominator. Of course you might have a problem with that (because you cant fix sucking, thats for damn sure), but the other 200 people that would enjoy watching you die because you suck? Man, Im sure thats way more worth it.
Keep that in mind.
-Ent
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Challenger
Marshal
Joined: March 28, 2002
Posts: 886
| Posted: 2010-02-09 23:17
I agree with you Ent. More options and the same ships would be fine. But how do you put that into the game without a individuals choices affecting the whole ICC/UGTO/KLUTH race? They are proposing draining resources to pull a ship out and that was the topic of conversation. It only takes one new or unexperienced or just a person that does not care about others to affect the game for everyone else in a system like that.
While talking with my brother something popped up in my head. Why not consider bringing back credits and getting an economy back in Darkspace. Ships require credits in order for you to pull them out of SY's. This way you do not have to nerf defenses on planets and players will not effect other players by taking out ships. It is up to the individual to work to be able to take their bigger ships out. But this should apply for destroyers or higher. Even those people who are unsubbed and have only been playing for a couple of weeks should have to pay to take a destroyer out...... Any thoughts about an economy? I know DS used to have one for upgrades and I think you lost your upgrades when you lost your ship if I remember correctly. But this would prevent people from spamming 20 dreads a night and force them to play more smart.
In a system like this it will not screw with other players if you want to be a irresponsible player. And I do agree with Ent that more options would be nice as long as these options do not affect the entire player pool of a individual race.
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Jackal'
Admiral
Joined: January 01, 2009
Posts: 22
From: Connecticut U.S.A.
| Posted: 2010-02-09 23:28
I agree with challenger. I'm as annoyed as the next guy when people die and come back in shiny new ships every 5 mins, and that does have to be fixed. But Making an entire faction responsible for one newb's stupidity isn't the answer. He made a good point about using credits to undock or create a larger ship, but we could modify that to any way that fits. We could have our own personal resource pool that we need to fund our ships. I'll go back to his WoW comparison, if you hit level 80, good for you, but your still gonna be in crappy gear untill YOU work for better stuff. It isn't fair to make everyone else work for you.
Secondly, on the subject of making smaller ships more powerful, I disagree. I'm only in a battlecruiser right now and i'm not complaining about my damage output at all. My ship is faster, more meneuverable, and harder to hit because of it, and this translates right down to scouts. Yeah they get killed if they get too close to a dread but that's their fault for getting too close. Fleets work on strategy, if you want to kill a dread in your scout, Bring some friends. I like what we got now, a smart dessie pilot can be a formidable opponent to a cruiser and i've personaly taken on many dreads and held my own. The balance is good between the ships now, it doesn't need to be tampered with... cept for ICC scouts
I've worked too hard being everyone's slave in a sup ship to get my cruiser. I don't need to be outgunned by some two day player. Again back to the Wow comparison. the level ranges are split into areas and zones, and while we don't have that here, we DO have obvious differences between skill and rank levels. Don't blurr the lines, it's not fair to the grand marshals and it makes it too easy for the midshipmen.
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2010-02-09 23:31
Personally, I feel ships costing resources when you take them out of a shipyard should definitely be in place no matter what. It should especially be done now to keep alot of different smaller problems in check too.
It definitely limits Dread spawning. They cost so much more than smaller ships its a big incentive to fly smaller ships. So you don't get your big ship, some other incompetant player did? Kind of too bad.
Also promotes getting more planets and systems, because then you have more resources and could field more dreadnaughts quicker. Hello fighting over those planets.
I feel most people's issue with ships costing resources to spawn is that if some guy is luckier to bring one out faster than him they can't get their big pretty ship too - even if they were competant.
I don't particularly care for the 'i earned my rank durpderp im a child and can only play one ship' arguments. Entitlement is part of the problem. This is a team game, you work together for a goal, to conquer everyone else and win and have fun doing it.
If the only way you can have fun is if everyone is sitting around in Dreadnaughts then there is no hope for the game.
But then people don't really fight to win, people don't really go out and try and conquer the universe. Several recent posts will show just how low the level of playing has gotten. People reserving systems so that people have a place to spawn? How considerate!
Too bad you were supposed to keep them from doing that. But I forget this isn't a PvP game. Oh wait.
So many things changed by AI and Dreadspace, the entire attiude of the playerbase has shifted to where this isn't a game about conquest and teamwork and survival its about camping a spawnpoint of AI for a few hours or one faction complaining that they have no where to spawn because dammit to hell they just can't be bothered to defend all those planets!
Its always a surprise to see how bad things have gotten. So glad I gave this game up.
-Ent
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2010-02-09 23:48
damn complicated issue....
I got another idea for u guys...
Why not level every ship and it's device depends on player actual rank?
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Challenger
Marshal
Joined: March 28, 2002
Posts: 886
| Posted: 2010-02-09 23:54
Everyones ideal of playing this game is defferent Ent.... you say team work and taking planets/systems. My ideal of fun is ship vs ship combat. I could care less about taking systems. However if there are players bombing I do not mind jumping in there and running PD for them or combat escort.
But that is my idea of playing this game. I know that is not everyone elses idea so it is silly to put my ideals on other people. It is the same for you as well. You have your own opinion on what this game should be and that is fine. But do not say it like that is the written in stone way of doing things. If that is your attitude and you cannot open your eyes and see that other people might think differently then it is no wonder that you left the game.
I do say that there needs to be accountability for you loosing your ships and getting new ones, but what is purposed will ruin the game for those of us who do play. It would only take one person to ruin a entire planets resources so that no one else could use that planet. Then we are stuck being pissed at that person, complaining about it, being stuck in smaller ships, Mods coming in telling people to calm down, those idiots who take the bigger ships and are stupid with them not recieving any support from the rest of the fleet. Then they die and now there is no other big ships unless you want to bring them from a distance away. It doesnt solve anything. All it is going to do is cause more complaining more issues and more people leaving the game.
If there is a plan to be put into place to prevent people from bringing in bigger ships then fine do it..... but consider making it the individual persons required efforts to get those ships. Dont put it on everyone. Dont nerf the planets defenses anymore, next thing you will see is all the newbies flying around in their bomber scouts and frigits being able to cap planets in the MV.
I suppose this goes both ways though Ent this is just my opinion and it is not written in stone but it is how I feel. Thank you for listening. I hope you will come back some day Ent it was good having you around.
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