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Too many big ships aka DreadStation Space |
Jackal'
Admiral
Joined: January 01, 2009
Posts: 22
From: Connecticut U.S.A.
|  Posted: 2010-02-11 01:17
There is no reason to lessen the number of dreads in the MV, and to do so would be a slap in the face to the people who have earned the bigger ships... try telling coombie that he can't fly his dread tonight because no one else has on, he'd just laugh at you. So would anyone else that had rank for a dread or a station. I agree that something needs to be done, seeing the same person create 10 dreads in 20 mins is a bit much, but nerfing EVERYONE's ability to be in a big ship is pointless. think about the balancing of it... say the kluth has taken all but 1 system in sag, they have ALL those planets to spawn dreads from and ALOT more resources to do it with. Now on the other side is the ugto with 1 SY planet and it's a 10v10 battle. your talking 10 kluth dreads and cruisers vs 1 uggie dread and a bunch of dessies. it's just not gonna work. We have to fix the problem in a way that won't effect the fluididty of the gameplay. We could make it simple, like, You can only create a new ship of a certain type, say a battle dread, every 10 or 20 mins. all we need to do is keep people from spamming ships and force them to use the one's that they have.
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2010-02-11 01:50
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On 2010-02-11 01:17, -Jackal- wrote:
There is no reason to lessen the number of dreads in the MV, and to do so would be a slap in the face to the people who have earned the bigger ships... try telling coombie that he can't fly his dread tonight because no one else has on, he'd just laugh at you. So would anyone else that had rank for a dread or a station.
I agree that something needs to be done, seeing the same person create 10 dreads in 20 mins is a bit much, but nerfing EVERYONE's ability to be in a big ship is pointless. think about the balancing of it... say the kluth has taken all but 1 system in sag, they have ALL those planets to spawn dreads from and ALOT more resources to do it with. Now on the other side is the ugto with 1 SY planet and it's a 10v10 battle. your talking 10 kluth dreads and cruisers vs 1 uggie dread and a bunch of dessies. it's just not gonna work. We have to fix the problem in a way that won't effect the fluididty of the gameplay. We could make it simple, like, You can only create a new ship of a certain type, say a battle dread, every 10 or 20 mins. all we need to do is keep people from spamming ships and force them to use the one's that they have.
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Which just means people will complain because they're stuck in a crappy ship for ten or twenty minutes because they lagged into a planet, or they got caught in a bad spot or something.
I truly don't think people understand the concept of a nerf. Nerf just means that something was reduced in terms of power/effectiveness/etc. It doesn't specify magnitude.
Now if DS returned to skill oriented gameplay and big ships had a specific role to fufill, compared to now yes they would be nerfed. Instead of being the best at everything instead they are the best at whatever role they were chosen to be given.
This is a point apparently that doesn't seem to click in anyones braines. Apparently if we do this to everyone, oh god, it means small ships can kill big ones!
Well yeah, if they are good pilots, are using the right ship in the right way against the right ship in the right way.
To illustrate the point, and damn please follow and read it all if you are going to:
Lets say every ship had a role to fufill. Very explicit. Now, a scout - its good at scouting, recon, etc. Its not going to be good at killing things. It could probably annoy the hell out of a dreadnaught, but its going to be hard to hit by the dreadnaught because the Dreadnaughts role is not to swat smaller ships. Lets say most combat oriented Dreadnaughts are built specifically to deal alot of damage to larger vessels with alot of survivability.
In this scenario, the scout isn't going to kil a Dreadnaught because no matter how good he is its just not designed for it. Conversely a Dreadnaught would see no point in trying to kill a scout because there is no way its big, slow guns are going to hit it. It evens itself out.
Now you can have Cruisers, and say the Torpedo Cruiser was specifically designed to take out Dreadnaughts. Used in the right way, and with skill (not just hitting spacebar), if the pilot was better than the Dreadnaught pilot the Dreadnaught would lose, that simple. If not, the Dread would.
Instead of hurr durr im bigger I automatically win, instead, if I use the right ship in the right way and I don't suck, I win.
But people do kind of like their Dreadnaughts to be the best at everything so... yeah, obviously that is unappealing.
Now there is the argument against that, that there is no point to ranking up in that scenario and they are completely wrong. After all, why rank up to be a dreadnaught when a cruiser can just come and kill you?
Well first of all, we all can't help it if you suck. PvP game, you know.
Secondly, just because that cruiser is good at killing Dreadnaughts, doesn't mean conversely, there isn't a Dreadnaught good at killing cruisers (while sucking against other Dreads.) Checks and balances. No one ship better than another. There is always a reason to rank up because you will have far, far more options and far, far more ability to adapt to a situation than they can.
And more ability to adapt means more ability to win. Its also a fun challenge I hear.
But people do. of course, like being the best at everything with just one ship..
-Ent
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Coombie
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: October 04, 2001
Posts: 149
From: Australia
| Posted: 2010-02-11 02:26
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On 2010-02-10 21:32, Sens wrote:
If you're alone, theres no need to conserve resources at the moment unless you somehow manage to spawn 5 stations under 5 minutes... You all act as if planets don't generate more resouce.
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Sens, my only concern is in a average 20 min period, i would spawn a dread bomber tranny engy station. none of which would usualy be destroyed. Would this drain faction res? dose it only drain res if you are destroyed?
my play style is diff to most, I believe the key to ds is to be in the right ship at the right time in the right place, and thus constantly changing ships.
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Jackal'
Admiral
Joined: January 01, 2009
Posts: 22
From: Connecticut U.S.A.
| Posted: 2010-02-11 02:43
ent, you missed my whole point about the 20 min thing. right now we get to keep our ship if it dies. I still want that, but i want people to be forced to stay in THAT battle dread, or pick another ship. and secondly, this is NOT a rock paper scisors game, you can't make a dread that can kill a cruiser but not dreads, it doesn't work. I'll tell you right now that any scout dumb enough to attack a dread deserves what's coming to it, and i've never seen a dread waste a jump to kill a scout. those balances are already there.
1 tier up or down, is a different story however. Frigs are meant to kill scouts and work with others to kill dessies. dessies are meant to kill frigs and work together to kill cruisers. and right up the list, and it works. the thing that always angered me about wow was that no matter how many lvl 10's you got together, you couldn't bring down a 50. But one of my favorite things in darkspace is the david and goliath effect. I can't tell you how many times good flying in my battlecruiser, outmatched kluth dreads and cruisers. and i can name times when dessies have worked together to bring my Bcruiser down. You can't take that away without changing the whole dynamic of the game.
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2010-02-11 03:56
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On 2010-02-11 02:43, -Jackal- wrote:
ent, you missed my whole point about the 20 min thing. right now we get to keep our ship if it dies. I still want that, but i want people to be forced to stay in THAT battle dread, or pick another ship. and secondly, this is NOT a rock paper scisors game, you can't make a dread that can kill a cruiser but not dreads, it doesn't work. I'll tell you right now that any scout dumb enough to attack a dread deserves what's coming to it, and i've never seen a dread waste a jump to kill a scout. those balances are already there.
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So they'll still complain because they can't be in that one ship, same thing.
Also, saying the word can't is alot like saying "its way too inconvienient to think of way to make it work." Absolutes never hold up to scrunity.
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1 tier up or down, is a different story however. Frigs are meant to kill scouts and work with others to kill dessies. dessies are meant to kill frigs and work together to kill cruisers. and right up the list, and it works.
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Except this is my point. You wouldn't use a couple scouts to kill a frigate when a couple frigates will kill it faster. You wont use a couple frigates to kill a destroyer because you can use a couple destroyers to kill it faster.
You wont use a couple cruisers to kill a dreadnaught when you can use a dreadnaught to kill it faster.
You will never use a previous ship unless you have to. Everything gets progressively better, there is no reason to use another ship unless you have to, and the only reason you have to is if you don't have the rank for a better one. Show me one situation where a couple GAs will choose to use a bunch of smaller ships to take down one big ship instead of a bunch of big ships and it be better.
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the thing that always angered me about wow was that no matter how many lvl 10's you got together, you couldn't bring down a 50. But one of my favorite things in darkspace is the david and goliath effect. I can't tell you how many times good flying in my battlecruiser, outmatched kluth dreads and cruisers. and i can name times when dessies have worked together to bring my Bcruiser down. You can't take that away without changing the whole dynamic of the game.
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The biggest problem isn't that the David vs. Goliath effect doesn't exist, and it does and its nice.. when it happens. It works on the small scale of things. When there are only three ships and its 2 vs 1, small vs. big, its great.
But then you scale it up a bit, and it falls apart. Get five Dreadnaughts together. For even a chance, you'd need about 8 cruisers. Or 15 destroyers.
Which is okay, if you have the numbers (hint: we don't). But then you stop and think...
Why would you use 8 cruisers, when you can use 8 dreadnaughts and have an even bigger advantage? Or 15? The only thing that stops this is rank. And believe me, it isn't that hard to get to a Dreadnaught.
Thats the whole point. There. There is no balance, there is no change. In the end, there is no point to every other ship once you hit Vice Admiral. Thats 1/8th the game by the way.
You hit 1/8th of the way, and you are set. I never played a game where I got 1/8th through the game and could beat anything until this one.
Incase you want to argue Vice Admiral Dreadnaughts suck, you can use Admiral ships as a good example. I never got 1/4th through the game and could beat everything either.
Darkspace had <-- the unique dynamic that nothing became obsolete, everything had its use, depending on the situation. If you died, you died because you sucked. You didn't hit VA and suddenly you automatically won.
In another MMO, hitting a point and being the best might make sense, but you're talking to someone who played a game where skill mattered something. When you have over 20 ships at your disposal in a faction and when you are GA you will at most, use three of them, because the rest are obsolete, its an issue.
It is not merely about "buffing" other ships, its about making things useful again. Instead of this crappy, pathetic sandbox shooter I want those fleet tactics, that feeling that you are more than just spacebar mashing. And hey that nostalgia going for it too.
And you say that can't work. Well damn, I could post another long post showing how it could be done. Because I didn't stop and think "Man, this sucks now without being able to back up an alternative.
-Ent
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2010-02-11 12:42
Just fix gadget level to actual pilot rank and I wont be mining for 20 mins a for a dread. Infact, u wont see my flying dreads anymore.
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Acetheanimal(Angel of Distruction)
Grand Admiral
Joined: March 22, 2008
Posts: 85
| Posted: 2010-02-11 13:45
look the object of the smaller ships and bigger ships is this guys. when you first start out you fly smaller ships you have to have something to work up to thus the bigger and better ships. yes your going to run into problems cause you cant fly anything bigger. but think of it this way. would you actually put in any of the time it would take if you didnt have a reward at the end of that time? this answer to this most of the time is no you wouldnt. so to intice you to keep going they put in ships like dreads and sations. pluse that you have many other things other then fighting you can do like mineing for instance or battle ai or even building or bombing. yes its harder then before but what is a game if you dont face some adversity. if you want the bigger ships put in the time and earn them like everyone else dont penalize the others because they put in the hard work to get them. if you want to have something with a pentalty youll have to penilize everyone and every ship you fly hence forth the press loss pership you lose and the ship yard you have to have to fly the bigger ship. what this post is really telling me is that you just want to have something to complain about when there really is nothing to complain about just put in the work and you will be rewarded in the end i know i was when i got my first dread.....i terroized everyone for about 2 weeks before loseing my first dread and i didnt even lose that much press for it. it depends on the situation and the person.
this is all i have to say
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2010-02-11 14:06
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On 2010-02-11 12:42, Pakhos wrote:
Just fix gadget level to actual pilot rank and I wont be mining for 20 mins a for a dread. Infact, u wont see my flying dreads anymore.
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2010-02-11 14:58
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On 2010-02-11 14:06, Fattierob wrote:
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On 2010-02-11 12:42, Pakhos wrote:
Just fix gadget level to actual pilot rank and I wont be mining for 20 mins a for a dread. Infact, u wont see my flying dreads anymore.
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This.
-Ent
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2010-02-11 15:49
This was caused by leveling weapons to ship hull size. Everything else is and has been a work around to fix that one issue. If they were made back to a torp is a torp is a torp, regardless of if it is a dessie, frigate or station, then you would see more small ships again. I know every old school wolf, which is almost all of them, weep at the loss of the dessie and cruisers as viable ships vs bigger ship fleets.
I used to love using dessie against UGTO dreads. The Claw and the Drainer could rip the hell out of a poorly piloted EAD. I loved the Scarab and Scale vs ICC. A few AM mines while you kite an AD could really rip into a the front of his shields.
Another thing that we did in those days was use mixed ship wings. We used cruiser and dread teams. We mixed in frigates and dessies as killshot ships. We had a huge page on dictor tactics and wingman tactics.
All of that was as a result of the fact that ships were balanced by number of gadgets on the ship, not hull class.
When wolf came back into the game, we tried to redevelop some of those tactics. Some worked ok, some are just lost now, because the game has morphed - not in and of itself a bad thing mind you. But there is no doubt that when this all was changed, that alot of the fun, balance, and skill level went right out with it.
Im sure this thread will be locked soon. I am suprised it hasnt been yet. To critic the game in any way seems now off limits. I waited to post this because I figured it would be pointless anyways.
But devs. Seriously. This aspect is the root of the balance, ship usage, and lack of PvP problem that is now grinding this game into the ground.
Your proposed changes in the latest log are nice. But I predict that none will fix any of the real problems that DS suffers from atm.
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Doran
Chief Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 29, 2003
Posts: 4032
From: The Gideon Unit
| Posted: 2010-02-11 16:03
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On 2010-02-11 15:49, Azreal wrote:
a torp is a torp is a torp, regardless of if it is a dessie, frigate or station,
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im a fan of this myself.
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Jackal'
Admiral
Joined: January 01, 2009
Posts: 22
From: Connecticut U.S.A.
| Posted: 2010-02-11 16:34
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On 2010-02-11 03:56, Enterprise wrote:
Except this is my point. You wouldn't use a couple scouts to kill a frigate when a couple frigates will kill it faster. You wont use a couple frigates to kill a destroyer because you can use a couple destroyers to kill it faster.
You wont use a couple cruisers to kill a dreadnaught when you can use a dreadnaught to kill it faster.
You will never use a previous ship unless you have to. Everything gets progressively better, there is no reason to use another ship unless you have to, and the only reason you have to is if you don't have the rank for a better one. Show me one situation where a couple GAs will choose to use a bunch of smaller ships to take down one big ship instead of a bunch of big ships and it be better.
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Then what's to complain about, If you can get into the bigger ships, USE them. If not, help the other people who have the bigger ships. and if your the only one on, chances are your not gonna be killin anybody anyways.
And about the vice admiral thing... kluth vice admirals can't even use dreads, ICC missile dreads only have 1 purpose, and ugto carrier dreads can't hold their own against other dreads. You need 20k pres for combat and battle dreads, and when i've worked as much as i need to to get 20k pres, i'm not getting out of my battle dread. i'm sorry, you can't tell the higher ranked people to nerf themselves just because others havn't played as long. It doesn't work like that.
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2010-02-11 17:03
Of course I could use bigger ships if you want to, but not everyone wants to use them and no one should have to use them to be on a level playing field.
No one should have to sacrifice their playstyle just because higher ranked people absolutely must have the best. I worked hard for all my prestige, but I don't have the same sense of entitlement to having the biggest ships because of it. This problem came from the fact that someone decided that they big ships (hint: just this version) are best.
When I worked hard for my prestige, getting a bigger ship meant having another option, it didn't become so important that you absolutely had to have one, so it didn't matter. And I knew it didn't matter, because if I went into a fight without the support of the little guys I knew I was screwed.
Its that kind of balance that makes everyone useful and everyone has fun, not just you Mr. Big Ship Guy. So maybe if you earned that 20k prestige and now you have that Battle Dreadnaught instead of you thinking "Wow, now Im better than everyone because of this ship" you can say "I was already pretty awesome before this ship and I will be after."
Sorry, but sometime or another I hope the Dev's realize there were once more important things than having a bigger ship. To me, the game was alot more satisfying when I was FA, flying a Destroyer skill because I was damn good with it, taking out people in Dreadnaughts who thought because they had earned their rank they deserved a big ship that meant they didn't have to know how to use it. Of course, if they did know how to use it I was screwed, so...
But I guess I can't help it if newer players never lived those days. They should, I think they would enjoy the game more - and the people that come with it.
The best way to make it happen is exactly as was said before:
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On 2010-02-11 15:49, Azreal wrote:
a torp is a torp is a torp, regardless of if it is a dessie, frigate or station,
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The game works on levels now, which is the main reason why dreadnaughts are so much better. Before how it worked was:
- Bigger ships meant it had more weapons and armor
- Weapons / Armor / Devices were the same no matter what ship it was. A cannon on a Dreadnaught was no different than a cannon on a destroyer.
Which meant a really good destroyer pilot would have no trouble killing a Dreadnaught pilot if the Destroyer pilot was better in terms of skill.
Now the problem is, not only do Dreadnaughts have more weapons and armor, they also have better weapons and armor. You don't need skill anymore, just hit spacebar alot.
The only real propsoal that is needed is:
Get rid of the levels system so that all devices are equal, and then balance all ships and weapons to have a given role. Very simple.
You make it so that Torpedos are good against bigger, slower targets (dreads/stations) and then put them on ships designed to fight those ships. Bigger ships have more of them and so are better at it. Smaller ships have less of them but the same strength. In this case:
A torpedo cruiser would be good at killing dreadnaughts, but it would suck against other cruisers because torpedos are too slow to use. You would then have say cannons are best against medium sized ships,so you would design a cruiser around them, and bam, you have a counter against other cruisers. See how easy it works? And best of all, as you go up in rank, ships still do get better, but they also get more demanding skill wise, as it should be.
The biggest problem with this before was that the ships were not balanced correctly, and so there were alot of issues with smaller ships having too easy of a time against big ones. This is no ones fault except for the the lack of people and the lack willingness to balance them, and that thankfully is no longer an issue so there is no reason to not make it work.
-Ent
[ This Message was edited by: Enterprise on 2010-02-11 17:26 ]
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Sens [R33]
Admiral
Joined: September 27, 2008
Posts: 1020
From: Edge of th...
| Posted: 2010-02-11 17:55
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On 2010-02-11 00:47, Hellza - Drunk Master wrote:
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On 2010-02-10 12:29, Sens wrote:
*sigh* I'l iterate it one last time, you can spawn whatever you want, just not wherever.
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removing SY'ds as well as stoppping players able to spawn at transfer gates would stop that 
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There won't be any.
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2010-02-11 18:01
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On 2010-02-11 17:03, Enterprise wrote:
Get rid of the levels system so that all devices are equal, and then balance all ships and weapons to have a given role. Very simple.
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So back to the days of 2 dessies kill Hive ?
No sir, if this is what will make u come back to play , i am happy you arent playing.
But if you say a chief marshal flying destroyer and ship gadget system leveled up by his rank , then be it.
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