| Author |
Small Ships and Big Ships |
Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
|  Posted: 2005-08-19 15:10
im going to sum up what the *small ships are better, so why have big ships?* argument essentially looks like
player A) why do we have small ships?
player B) to attack big ships, because theyre smaller and more maneuvarable
player A) well, if small ships can beat big ships, why do we have big ships?
player B) to attack other big ships, and planets, and some are specialised for attacking small ships
player A) but why would you have big ships? i mean, small ships can beat them right?
player B) yes, but, if youre smart you realise DS is a teambased game, so your big ships have small ship escorts
player A) why not just have small ships instead of escorting the big ship?
player B) because the big ship is more powerful
now, in theory, the argument ends here. big ship = more powerful, but vulnerable to little ships, so u escort it with little ships so little ships cant kill it, right? ...
player A) but little ships can kill big ships
now... now youve crossed the line, youve started the entire thing over again. you are infact being redundant, when an answer has already been provided to all of the questions youve asked. youre saying exactly nothing, quite possibly less then nothing.
so, lets go over it once more...
big ships can
1. kill entire planets (bomber dread, agincourt with bombers, command dread, brood, mandy(?), if you include cruisers then the bomber cruiser and clavate, etc.)
2. fire extremely long ranges (core weapons, missile dread, carrier dread)
3. in certain cases almost instantly remove small vessels from combat (mandy, brood, carrier is pretty good at it, missile dread) (take note that in the human factions, the 2 anti-dessie class ships are both long rangevessels.)
4. have a better chance at beating other big ships without dying
5. look really sexy
6. give a rally point to fleets
7. have higher hull values so can endure more
small ships can
1. kill big ships
2. bomb entire planets (but because of a bug)
3. have a better chance at beating other small ships
3. ... anything else? i suppose dessies can fire extremely long ranges too, but its not like 5 missiles have the same umph of the 19 an MD fires.
the picket dessie, the torp MD, the torp MC and the escort dessie are all glitches that wont exist in a month, so i really dont care what you say about them in inclusion to this argument, because they dont matter. if youre going to say "theyre why youre wrong" well thats lovely, they wont exist in a month which is why youre wrong.
people say that a dreadnaught should be able to take on small fleets of small ships. guess what, it used to be exactly that way. everyone complained that small ships were useless then. now youre all complaining big ships are useless...
what you basically want is for dessie space to go away and for dread spacce to come back.
why dont u sit down and wait instead, because faust and tael and all them are working on it. dread space wont ever come back. dessie space is going to leave. everything will be balanced out eventually.
and for the record, before faust shrunk the MV, on ICC we had about 3-4 dreads online out of the 24 people playing. we were pwning fleets of UGTO dreads and stations using dessies and bomber dreads, because the UGTO didnt have any small ships to respond to the bomber dreads, and couldnt land enough hits on the small ships to kill them. this was before all this ridiculous modding abuse started, so dessies were merely scratching the UGTO ships. we were still winning tho. flying a bomber dread i was usually escorted by ships i couldnt see when i was zoomed out midway to assess a good bombing route. THATs what a fleet should look like.
spamming dreads and stations makes you lose because you dont have a quick response time, and are outmaneuvered too easily. spamming dessies and frigates gets you nowhere because how are you going to cap anything? barring the mirv glitch, you arent, youre just a bunch of useless tiny guns. the enemy might as well just walk away at a leisurely stroll.
you have to balance your fleets with small escorts and big long range ships.
and now, people are saying the core weapons are useless, this is where your small ships become really useful. yep, the QST does mostly hull damage, not much shield. yep, its what Ent describes as a "finishing" weapon. who in gods name said that because the finishing weapon was mounted on the EAD, meant the EAD had to be the starting weapon too?
Nobody
get yourself 4 dessies and an EAD. hell, four FRIGATES and an EAD. go find that escort dessie youre all so afraid of. im pretty sure the escort dessies are mounting cannons, right? so frigates shouldnt have a tough time at all getting in close with beams and torpedoes and bringing the dessies shields down. maybe have a dictor around to make sure you can get its shields down as much as possible. switch dictor off, let him get away. he jumps to a friendly planet for repairs to whatever youve done to his hull. EAD jumps to 2k behind him, targets the planet, and fires. dead dessie. rinse and repeat on as many ships as you like.
same goes for the IC and the SI. frigates or dessies to wear em down, bombardment with core weapon to finish.
if youd like, im sure i could get a training video for those of you still having difficulty grasping the concept of a balanced fleet using teamwork to win.
how about a simile of some sort? i can get that too if you like, lets take a jump to 3 years ago when my brother was playing Tribes 2.
my brother was in charge of squad organisation and flight training for the clan Phantom Guard. hes the primary reason the 4 man squad system was introduced to the clan. PG was deadly before, it was frighteningly now. as an example, lets say PG was in a standard CTF Ladder match, 16 vs 16.
the clan would be broken down into 4 squads, one dedicated defense squad, and 3 others. the defense squad was usually 4 heavy armoured guys who just sat around the base with mortars, chainguns and disc launchers.
the 3 assault squads are what were gonna focus on though.
it was normally broken down so they had 2 squads using light armour, and one squad using heavy armour (medium armour was considered pretty much worthless). the light armours engaged the defenders of the base while the heavy armours got up on a nearby hill, aimed very carefully, and mortared the hell out of the base, killing the radar, the defense turrets, and anyone unfortunate enough to think it was safe to use the front door. then the lights went in and cleared out the base, killing the generators and inventory stations, and anyone inside, and stealing the flag.
lights = dessies and frigates, heavys = dreadnaughts and cruisers, and i guess the defense squad = stations or something.
there you freaking go.
_________________
Admiral Larky, The Wolf
Don't play with fire, play with Larky.
Raven Division Command - 1st Division
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2005-08-19 15:17
Dread > own all
End of. Shouldnt be any other way. If you dont want to get owned by one, dont go against it. Players who whine about dying should LEARN how to pay attention to their surroundings instead of whining and getting dreads nerfed AGAIN. I cant wait for the next patch, hopefully then we'll see Dreads returning to their original design of being able to own pretty much anything and being WORTH the wait. Small ships DONT take on bigger ones unless they have enough of them to even dent the armour. Thats how it works. In the real world, a smaller ship would NEVER take on a bigger classed ship unless it had some serious advantage over it. Because..
A) The larger ship has more range
B) The larger ship is more powerful
C) The larger ship can take more of a beating
Dreads shouldnt need an escort full stop. They are the behmoths of any fleet and the drive power behind anything, or should be. Frigates and destroyers are NOT the drive of a fleet, they are usefull for taking on the smaller ships because the larger ships cant fly fast enough to hit the smaller ones. Thats the only reason. If a smaller ship comes within range of a larger one, then it deserves to die.
The point ent was making was that the powerhouse of the UGTO fleet has ALWAYS been its dreads because they can last longer in battle due to their extra power and wepaons taht require no ammo (p cannon), and their armour. This allows them to stay in battle pounding the enemy ships. They have been the mainstay of the UGTO fleet for YEARS. Way before you where here.
Now, the EAD has been nerfed quit badly this patch. You will find NO ONE flying it, because it does no damage. The QST, drains way too much power for it to be of any use in combat, the 5 HCL's, are crap, they do no damage. the only good thing on it is the 8 torps and 12 cannons. But that requires power to shoot, adn the EAD has the LEAST power of ALL assault ships. Yet the UGTO's strong point has always been its power mostly, and the ability to stay in the battle. You cant stay in the battle with the EAD. Fire the QST and you have to bail out for 20-30 seconds. Fire the 6 torps, and your energys gone (two are rear facing). The cannons are all thats left to keep you from dying, and 90% of them are forward facing, as are all the other wepaons.
[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash *Jack* on 2005-08-19 15:28 ]
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2005-08-19 16:10
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On 2005-08-19 15:17, BackSlash *Jack* wrote:
Dread > own all
End of. Shouldnt be any other way. If you dont want to get owned by one, dont go against it. Players who whine about dying should LEARN how to pay attention to their surroundings instead of whining and getting dreads nerfed AGAIN. I cant wait for the next patch, hopefully then we'll see Dreads returning to their original design of being able to own pretty much anything and being WORTH the wait. Small ships DONT take on bigger ones unless they have enough of them to even dent the armour. Thats how it works. In the real world, a smaller ship would NEVER take on a bigger classed ship unless it had some serious advantage over it. Because..
A) The larger ship has more range
B) The larger ship is more powerful
C) The larger ship can take more of a beating
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Coulden't really be better put. Larger ships are supposed to be able to take punishment, and dish it out, if it can hit. A swarm of small ships should be able to take on a Dreadnought, but one ship, should not be capable of taking on a larger one, why?
Teamwork. If a small ship can solo a larger one, that is no teamwork, it just means spamming shots until the larger ship goes down. Not true you say? I managed to fly around an entire fleet and solo an MD on my own, ON MY FREAKING OWN, with no support.
No, I didn't bother reading the whole passage Lark, mostly because its stufff we already went over once before.
The argument is simply, numbers should be required to take on a larger ship; one ship capable of doing so takes away the essence of teamwork.
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Dreads shouldnt need an escort full stop. They are the behmoths of any fleet and the drive power behind anything, or should be. Frigates and destroyers are NOT the drive of a fleet, they are usefull for taking on the smaller ships because the larger ships cant fly fast enough to hit the smaller ones. Thats the only reason. If a smaller ship comes within range of a larger one, then it deserves to die.
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Exactly another logical point. The point of smaller ships are to take on other small ships, only in numbers should they be capable of taking on a dreadnought.
Dreadnoughts in itself, should be able to lay down the power, and lots of it, and take quite a beating, but of course, it being abysimally slow, it can't take on a smaller ship unless it gets too close, too slow.
Which then of course, then you deserve to die, as Jack mentioned.
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The point ent was making was that the powerhouse of the UGTO fleet has ALWAYS been its dreads because they can last longer in battle due to their extra power and wepaons taht require no ammo (p cannon), and their armour. This allows them to stay in battle pounding the enemy ships. They have been the mainstay of the UGTO fleet for YEARS. Way before you where here.
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Another nail-head hitter. Its more than commonlly known that the UGTO's Space superiority has always depended on its Dreadnoughts.
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Now, the EAD has been nerfed quit badly this patch. Badly is an understatement.You will find NO ONE flying it, because it does no damage. The QST, drains way too much power for it to be of any use in combat, the 5 HCL's, are crap, they do no damage. This is true, I used all five once on a lone ICC Assault Cruiser for a whole 3% Shield damage the only good thing on it is the 8 torps and 12 cannons. But that requires power to shoot, adn the EAD has the LEAST power of ALL assault ships. Only 3 reactors, yeah, it can't hold energy at all. Yet the UGTO's strong point has always been its power mostly, and the ability to stay in the battle. You cant stay in the battle with the EAD. Also true, as alot of UGTO ships find power problems now for the silliest reasons.[/b]
Fire the QST and you have to bail out for 20-30 seconds. Try it with the rest of the cannons, and your out a good 3 or 4 minutes Fire the 6 torps, and your energys gone (two are rear facing). The cannons are all thats left to keep you from dying, and 90% of them are forward facing, as are all the other wepaons. And even those cannons aren't enough...
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I think I will try one last time to say the full blown of what is known as logical order of this game.
Simply enough, Dreadnoughts, on ANY faction, are meant to be the workhorse. Dreadnoughts are only as good (or should be only as good) as the pilot behind it. Dreadnoughts should have energy problems only when fully alphaing at full speed, other than that, they should be fair off.
Dreadnoughts should boast massive, heavy damage weaponry, ALL dreadnoughts should, to some degree. Assault Dreadnoughts should be worth the FA rank their placed at.
The disadvantage of all Dreadnoughts should be their slow speed, and acceleration.
What this means, is that a Dreadnought cannot do damage vs. a smaller ship because the smaller ship is faster and more manueverable than the dreadnought will ever be, not because it has more weapons/ armor, and thus requires small ships for this. A Dreadnought can, and SHOULD literally wipe the floor clean of anything that comes too close.
Smaller ships should rely strictly on numbers to fight, as has always been the case, that weaker ships alone do nothing, yet together in a fight are horribly powerful.
A good example comes from HomeWorld (the first one). One Bomber, would never be capable of taking on a Heavy Cruiser, but if you got 30 or 40 or them, you wiped the floor with it. Likewise with the Heavy Cruiser, anything that was slow and stupid enough to get hit by it, died quickly.
As should be with the case of DS, one small ship should never be capable of taking on a larger one all by itself. It SHOULD need teammates to do it, and it SHOULD take time to do it. Likewise, a Dread SHOULD be able to defend itself IF the smaller ship gets too close.
You speak of teammates Lark, but keep trying to enforce that you should be able to solo ships...
-Ent
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Arcanum {C?}
Cadet
Joined: June 25, 2005
Posts: 222
| Posted: 2005-08-19 17:14
Well, well, well. I never thought I would see this day. Where shall I ever begin?
The master and resident expert of game balance finally reveals his true opinions on Darkspace dynamics. Let us neophytes take a closer look:
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| Dread > own all
End of. Shouldnt be any other way. |
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So dreadnoughts are meant to destroy everything in their paths. And perhaps finally live up to the name "dreadnought." This seems to be a fair statement. Let us continue.
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| If you dont want to get owned by one, dont go against it. Players who whine about dying should LEARN how to pay attention to their surroundings instead of whining and getting dreads nerfed AGAIN. |
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So players who get destroyed by dreadnoughts are deserve to die because they were either acting foolishly or incompetently. Awareness of surroundings is, in fact, a key part of combat. Fair enough. Moving forward.
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| I cant wait for the next patch, hopefully then we'll see Dreads returning to their original design of being able to own pretty much anything and being WORTH the wait. |
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Here, it is possible to observe that the author subscribes to the "seniority complex," i.e. "I have worked longer and harder than newer players, thus I deserve to pilot a ship that is worth the wait (e.g. a dreadnought that destroys everything in its wake)." Once again, not necessarily an unfair position to adopt.
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| Small ships DONT take on bigger ones unless they have enough of them to even dent the armour. Thats how it works. In the real world, a smaller ship would NEVER take on a bigger classed ship unless it had some serious advantage over it. Because..
A) The larger ship has more range
B) The larger ship is more powerful
C) The larger ship can take more of a beating |
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Interesting opinion here. The theory is that small ships should not attempt to engage larger ships because larger ships have the overwhelming advantage of longer range, superior offensive capability and increased staying power. UNLESS the small ship had "some serious advantage over it."
Of course, a smaller ship's higher speed, more nimble maneuverability, and smaller size (thus presenting a smaller target profile) are clearly not "serious advantages" over the dreadnought's proclaimed endowments. One has only to examine history to know that modern warfare obviously does not revolve around speed, maneuverability and small, dispersed operating units, and actually favours the same slow, large and inflexible armies which have obviously not fallen into obsolescence as military strategy has evolved over time.
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| Dreads shouldnt need an escort full stop. They are the behmoths of any fleet and the drive power behind anything, or should be. |
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What could be more obvious than this? Battleships, the naval equivalent of dreadnoughts, regularly set sail alone in World War II, unaccompanied and unescorted by vast fleets of supply ships, frigates, destroyers, cruisers, and carriers.
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| Frigates and destroyers are NOT the drive of a fleet, they are usefull for taking on the smaller ships because the larger ships cant fly fast enough to hit the smaller ones. Thats the only reason. If a smaller ship comes within range of a larger one, then it deserves to die. |
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This is a very interesting analysis. Especially since history records that in World War II, the Battleship Bismarck, which, at the time, was the ship with the:
A) Longest range
B) Most power
C) Most armour
on the face of the planet, was actually sunk by a behemoth battleship called the NSS Executioner (check aforementioned game balance expert's signature), and not by British warships much smaller and more maneuverable than the goliath Bismarck.
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| The point ent was making was that the powerhouse of the UGTO fleet has ALWAYS been its dreads because they can last longer in battle due to their extra power and wepaons taht require no ammo (p cannon), and their armour. This allows them to stay in battle pounding the enemy ships. They have been the mainstay of the UGTO fleet for YEARS. Way before you where here. |
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This sounds awfully like certain individuals have habituated themselves to the easy lifestyle associated with infinite ammunition, unbelievable staying power, and overwhelming firepower which have essentially been the hallmark and "mainstay of the UGTO fleet for YEARS."
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| Now, the EAD has been nerfed quit badly this patch. |
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One could alternately say, "the EAD has been finally rebalanced to what it should have always been."
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| You will find NO ONE flying it, because it does no damage. The QST, drains way too much power for it to be of any use in combat, the 5 HCL's, are crap, they do no damage. the only good thing on it is the 8 torps and 12 cannons. But that requires power to shoot, adn the EAD has the LEAST power of ALL assault ships. Yet the UGTO's strong point has always been its power mostly, and the ability to stay in the battle. You cant stay in the battle with the EAD. Fire the QST and you have to bail out for 20-30 seconds. Fire the 6 torps, and your energys gone (two are rear facing). The cannons are all thats left to keep you from dying, and 90% of them are forward facing, as are all the other wepaons. |
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***Can we say, "Use proper UGTO tactics?"*** Or, since UGTO may or may not actually have had to develop a foreign concept such as "tactics" during the YEARS in which their superdreadnoughts had been the mainstay of their fleet, one might suggest that UGTO pilots actually learn the definition of "tactics" as a start, and perhaps flex that most important muscle to develop some "tactics."
(Aside: If the above muscle-flexing exercise proves too difficult for the aforementioned game balance expert, I am most willing to offer my insight on this matter, as my experiences in flying ships which, "for YEARS" have not been so fortunately endowed, have taught me some good lessons in "tactics.")
Apparently, even though the QST is meant to be a finishing weapon, some game balance experts may insist on using it as a primary weapon. After all, the alpha-strike may have been the most advanced tactic to come out of the said game balance expert's piloting repertoire in the YEARS of UGTO superiority. Furthermore, due to the long history of UGTO dreads having unspeakable staying power in battle, it may not have occurred to the game balance expert in question that a particle cannon's 3000+gu range can actually be used to weaken an opponent before engaging directly.
Heavy chemical lasers, which are not the signature weapon of the UGTO, cannot be expected (at least in a rational person's mind) to have the same on-impact damage as a similar weapon, such as the Disruptor Assault, which is the signature weapon of the K'luth. However, as can be witnessed by comparing Psi Cannons and Particle Cannon's of equal level, the Psi Cannon's slow reload rate makes it an inferior weapon to the Particle Cannon, which enjoys 1000+gu of additional range, and a more rapid reload time. Similarly, heavy chemical lasers have a faster reloading time than do Disruptor Assaults, and may, in fact, inflict more damage over a period of time, let us say, 10 seconds.
It is also interesting to make note of the fact that said game balance expert makes no mention of tactical uses of the flux wave, or the superiority of UGTO carrier class dreadnoughts. Perhaps such petty tactical considerations are below the brilliant and wily alpha-strike.
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By now, I am certain that the aforementioned game balance expert must be eager to ask me for a demonstration of how the EAD in its current state, can be flown properly using "Proper UGTO Tactics."
But for that, I borrow a tactic that I, myself, have very humbly learned from the very same game balance expert.
That is to say, I should log on under my alias account, make proclamations about UGTO EADs being a balanced ship, and then...call upon my K'luth friends to help prove that UGTO EADs are viable by themselves in a fight.
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But all that having been said, satire, not imitation or conflict, are what I wished to achieve here.
I, and my fellow K'luth, have frequently been the victims of people who are unwilling to understand our requests (and often pleas) for balance and equity. Instead, we are lectured on how to play our own faction, and for YEARS, we have been increasingly the recipients of misplaced criticism about our faction and our overpoweredness.
Truthfully, I believe that Backslash Jack makes some valid claims. The EAD does have some flaws in its design. And these flaws deserved to be fixed. Backslash is a senior and dedicated Darkspace player who has undoubtedly accumulated many techniques up his sleeve, and if he takes exception to the design of his signature ship, then I, for one, choose to give him the benefit of the doubt and believe him.
***Faustus - Please give consideration to Backslash Jack's request.***
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Though I expect no such reciprocity in turn, I can only hope that other players from other factions will begin to empathize with the comments, feedback, suggestions, and rebalancing requests from factions which are not their own.
[ This Message was edited by: Arcanum {C?} on 2005-08-19 19:35 ]
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2005-08-19 18:00
Smaller ships are to use manouverability and speed to get away from dreads and to avoid them. They arnt really meant to take them on. Since its just crazy (would you want to take on a ship more than 20x your size? I know I freaking wouldnt!)
And whilst you say "Use proper UGTO tactics". The UGTO's tactic has always been to use the power, speed and armour to remain in battle as long as possible, doing more damage over time. The EAD cannot do that however, and whilst the QST may be the finishing weapon (as if you fire one, you cant really fire the otherweapons due to the energy drain), then why on earth was it put on an ASSAULT SHIP, the ones that are meant to be the first into battle, and if its a finishing weapon, why make it an AOE weapon, your gonna get hit with it yourself if you use it that close. The EAD has MANY flaws, and I have stopped using it because...
A) Its not worth the FA rank
B) Its not worth its ELITE Dreadnaught name
C) Its not a UGTO ship...
My signature ship, the ship I use 90% of the time I have played this game, is not what it should be, and i've tried. God knows i've tried to use it, but it just, its not usefull enough to be used anymore. You can stay longer and deal more damage overtime with the battle dread, and the QST is useless because of its massive energy drain, and the fact the EAD has only 3 reactors (the siphon has 6, and the AD has 5, this allows them to fire their core weapon and regain energy (although the AD loses slight energy drain because of shields)), means I cant stay in the battle for more than 20-30 seconds. That isnt fun.
Bleh I say.
[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash *Jack* on 2005-08-19 18:02 ]
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2005-08-19 18:03
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Though I expect no such reciprocity in turn, I can only hope that other players from other factions will begin to empathize with the comments, feedback, suggestions, and rebalancing requests from factions which are not their own.
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I read your post, don't feel it necessary to repeat myself on anything there, except this.
This is a hard point that struck so violently on the head that it does take repeating to know.
Do not judge a faction utnil you have played it; thats what I did. Only when you play another faction can you truely realize the imbalences, and thus I have.
I can only hope others will as well...
-Ent
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2005-08-19 20:41
Jack, you just repeated most of what i said, except that DS will never be Dread Space ever again.
dreads are the behemoth of any fleet, i agree with
frigates and dessies are good for taking on other small ships, i agree with
dreads cant fire fast enough or accurately enough to kill small ships, i agree with
so, what youre saying is that small ships should be worthless...
so what happens to the faction that cant field any dreads? do they just lose jack?
small ships can kill big ships, why do u think you have small ships escorting u? to stop the small ships from killing you, dar
a single dreadnaught should not be undefeatable when faced against dessies and frigates. the fact that one dessie can kill a dreadnaught right now is a balancing issue that will be fixed. we had pages of forum arguments saying dreadnaughts should not be uber powerful. for cries sake, you were one of the people who wanted smaller ships to have a chance against big ships. have a chance, not to run away, but to win. thats exactly where they are right now. the escort dessy and picket dessy are wild cards that dont belong in the deck. they dont count. otherwise its exactly as it should be.
what you seem to want is so that if 4 destroyers show up, and your on your own, you still win. that isnt fair jack.
ent, you want teamwork? how is one dread taking on fleets of smaller ships teamwork? and WHERE have i said a dessy should solo a dread? tell me where? because ive been arguing against soloing the entire time. every argumental situation ive brought up has involved more then 2 ships. YOU keep bringing up ship vs ship. i dont think ship vs ship, because i dont play DS ship vs ship, because thats not how its meant to be played. i discount the picket and escort dessies from my arguments, because they wont be around very long. right now im defending the progress the game has made to give newbies a better chance. what are you doing? ive gotten close to dreadnaughts in frigates. ive died. that seems right to me, getting close to a dread should be death to a frigate. a destroyer is a fast maneuvarable ship designed specifcally for taking on the enemies long range vessels. thats essentially the DEFINITION of destroyer ent. why do you think its called a destroyer?! allow me to draw u a simply diagram:
Enemy fleet
= <-- dreadnaughts and other bombardment ships
<> <-- medium ranged cruisers
- <--- destroyers and support frigates
*********************** <-- battle line
- <---- destroyers and support frigates
<> <-- medium ranged cruisers
= dreadnaughts and other bombardment ships
Friendly Fleet
this is your standard full on naval battle layout. the idea is, your bombardment ships blast the hell out of the enemies rear lines to stop them from blasting the hell out of your front line, which advances forward and doles out the REAL hurt. the idea is, that the destroyers break thru with aid from the dreadnaughts, and kill the enemies dreadnaughts with pinpoint close range shots.
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one of the old rules in DS was that if u were alone, you probably died. your saying it shouldnt be true?
yep, youve been here longer then i have, but ive been here 3 years, i think i know something or two about the game. and besides, one of the arguments u used against me was this was a fresh patch... well jack, its a fresh patch. nothing you thought you knew applies anymore, the entire game is different.
maybe the EAD has some design flaws. im going to bet it still has more energy then an AD though. And Mr. Siphon over there doesnt have the hull for energy to be its main concern.
im through arguing with you, you know all my points, and youve apparently agreed with a lot of them while wording it to be an attack. the fact you dont seem to understand what my points amount to is your own failing. have a nice day.
[ This Message was edited by: N'Kra The Wolf {C?} on 2005-08-19 20:54 ]
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Admiral Larky, The Wolf
Don't play with fire, play with Larky.
Raven Division Command - 1st Division
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2005-08-19 20:59
Didn't somebody once say in the beta forums "Darkspace is not world war 2"?....wasn't that red addressing tael?...
mm...I see it's finally spilled out into here.
edit: I like the idea of your battle sense, but see, in WWII, bullets flew over ships (see: 3-d plane)
this is darkspace, where only fighters and passing ships enter a 3-d plane. so if you have HUGE DAMAGE dealing ships behind the small ships firing these HUGELY DAMAGING BOLTS OF DOOM, your going to get some FF demotions.
[ This Message was edited by: Fattierob (x2 Pistolet Makarov) on 2005-08-19 21:01 ]
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2005-08-19 22:00
i understand this isnt world war 2, but you dont normally fill a 2d plane too readily with enough destroyers to block the amount of fire a set of spaced dreadnaughts would generate.
and apparently trying to dodge all that fire is part of the fun of being a small ship anyways.
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Bobamelius
Grand Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: October 08, 2002
Posts: 2074
From: Ohio
| Posted: 2005-08-19 22:08
Wow, this is probably one of the most intelligent and civil balance discussions I've ever seen. Got some great posts here, and lots of relavent points.
Anyway... I was typing up this big essay on how I think the EAD is really one of the best UGTO ships out there, but Stargate's on, so I'm leaving.
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Tikki
Cadet
Raven Warriors
Joined: March 10, 2005
Posts: 132
From: Canuckistan
| Posted: 2005-08-19 22:19
I am not seeing where it was even implied that a smaller ship should be able to solo a bigger ship, though I wouldn't say it should not be utterly impossible depending on the skill of both pilots involved... as long as it's reasonable. Scout, even a frigate killing a dread should not happen (unless tractoring). Dessie should take one HELL of a good pilot to pull it off or a pack of 2-3 working well together. Cruiser, I'd put it to whichever pilot is better. Dreads should definately have the firepower edge but the ability to decimate a fleet on its own... no. Ability to decimate any one ship caught with its pants down, yes.
I should also say, that even at the height of UGTO dread power, I've been in a fleet of mostly ICC cruiser vs a fleet of mostly UGTO dreads and forced them away. Even killed one of the almighty EADs myself. Fleets require fleet tactics. Big ships and small.
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2005-08-19 22:25
I think I have an arguement here which should end this...
In truth, as I keep attempting to convey, is that numbers is the key to winning.
As it currently stands, a Destroyer, and even a frigate, is fully capable of solo'ing a Dreadnought.
Now, while one may argue "It needs escorts!!" a Frigate should have a hard time getting through a Dreadnoughts thick armor alone.
However, something is radically wrong here, since where were Frigates designed to attack Dreadnoughts?
Since this is Darkspace, and not modern warfare, or Homeworld or Tribes or whatever, such other tactics don't apply here. DS has its own set of rules.
Now, from experience, the way it has been is that smaller ships supported the larger ones, in such the following way :
Dreadnoughts, were, and have been, designed to be virtuatally able of taking on any ship, one on one. Simply put, you could not ever match the Dreadnought in terms of firepower, or armor, unless you had your own Dreadnought.
However, the Dreadnought had a weakness - It was slow, large, and poor manueverability. This meant that Cruisers, 2 or 3, were fully capable of, as a team, taking on one dreadnought, and winnining fairly quickly.
As such, Dreadnoughts and Cruisers, were the main combat elements which were offensive in a fleet.
However, Cruisers also doubled as a support to Dreadnoughts, who were more adept at fighting other Cruisers as well as Dreadnoughts.
So what about Destroyers and Frigates? They played a supporting role to the cruisers. Perhaps 6-8 Destroyers on their own would ever be capable of destroying a fully armored Dreadnought.
Unbalenced you say? Its not really - Dreadnoughts were, and should never - be designed for combat against smaller ships. This would always mean, that the Destroyers could hit, with weaker weapons, and Dreadnoughts could never hit, with stronger weapons.
This meant, instantly, Destroyers had the advantage as long as they kept in motion. With 2-4 Destroyers, they would be capable of wearing down the Dreadnoughts armor over time, but since teamwork like that was sometimes too cumbersome to coordinate, dessie fleets often weren't used.
Instead, Destroyers servered a more important purpose - they could take on Cruisers. One, sometime 2, Destroyers could quickly manuever to take out a cruiser before it could harm a dreadnought. This symbiosis would mean the Destroyer plays a key role in supporting the larger ships, but rarely (only if absolutely needed) would be able to take on a larger ship in a fleet of Destroyers.
The same holds true for Frigates. I would more than welcome an idea to buff up Frigates and Destroyers to make them more effective as supporting craft, but not so that they could be used offensively against all craft.
The fact infinitately remains : I am for teamwork, I am for fairness of all classes, I am not for single roled fleets of ships of one type for that purpose, I am for the well balenced fleet, and that fleet is one where each one relys on the other.
So to summerize this...
I argue against the point of making Destroyers powerful enough to take on Dreadnoughts. However, they should be powerful enough to help dammage one (as In, able to wear down some if not most of the armor) for cruisers which can deal the finishing blows.
Would this always mean that a Destroyer would lose against a dreadnought? The answer is no., if it keeps moving and dodging.
How about with a Frigate? Same deal. Should core weapons be as powerful as they are? NO, and if they are tweaked down, that can't be used as an excuse any longer.
So we have a balence here (based on accuracy, speed, manuverability, and other factors - hence when I say in a normal combat situation with a moving Destroyer, the damage a Dreadnought would inflict would be very littile, but at standstill, it would still get obliterated)
- Scouts kill Scouts , Damage Frigates- Supports The Entire Fleet
- Frigates Kill Scouts, Frigates, Damages Destroyers - Supports Destroyers and above.
- Destroyers kill Destroyers and below, moderately damage Cruisers, lightly damage Dreadnoughts. - Supports All Fleet Ships.
- Cruisers lightly damage Destroyers and below, kill cruisers, moderate-heavy dammage to Dreadnoughts - Supports Cruisers/Dreadnoughts.
- Dreadnoughts moderately damage cruisers, almost none to anything smaller. Heavily damages other Dreadnoughts and stations - Mainstay of Fleet.
I hope this provided an excellent basis of my point that effectively, smaller ships should, and perform, supporting duties so excellently well. Though while it can attack, it can never perform it as well as a higher class.
-Ent
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2005-08-19 22:33
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On 2005-08-19 22:25, Enterprise wrote:
Unbalenced you say? Its not really - Dreadnoughts were, and should never - be designed for combat against smaller ships. This would always mean, that the Destroyers could hit, with weaker weapons, and Dreadnoughts could never hit, with stronger weapons.
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Their is no natural ability for anyship to dodge any kind of weapon, whatsoever. Perhaps if destroyers had some kind of device that made big weapons miss becasue of..stuff...then this idea would work
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This meant, instantly, Destroyers had the advantage as long as they kept in motion. With 2-4 Destroyers, they would be capable of wearing down the Dreadnoughts armor over time, but since teamwork like that was sometimes too cumbersome to coordinate, dessie fleets often weren't used.
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Agreed. we need more teamwork and less "OMGZ A SHIP ELTS GO BLOW TIU P!!!LOKLOL!!!!!!"
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Instead, Destroyers servered a more important purpose - they could take on Cruisers. One, sometime 2, Destroyers could quickly manuever to take out a cruiser before it could harm a dreadnought. This symbiosis would mean the Destroyer plays a key role in supporting the larger ships, but rarely (only if absolutely needed) would be able to take on a larger ship in a fleet of Destroyers.
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How about destroyers go after cruisers and cruisers go after dreads? that way, dessies are able to free up dreads of attacking cruisers, allowing the dreads to attack other dreads
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The same holds true for Frigates. I would more than welcome an idea to buff up Frigates and Destroyers to make them more effective as supporting craft, but not so that they could be used offensively against all craft.
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Frigates are worthless as is. They NEED some kind of extra speed/strafing thrusters, or to be taken out. YOu only fly a frigate because you don't have a Dessie
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The fact infinitately remains : I am for teamwork, I am for fairness of all classes, I am not for single roled fleets of ships of one type for that purpose, I am for the well balenced fleet, and that fleet is one where each one relys on the other.
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Brillantly said. I must agree with that (and everything else) 117%
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2005-08-19 22:34
the ICC combat dessie cant kill a dreadnaught, im pretty sure the assault dessie cant either. thats from my experience though.
again, i discount the escort dessie and picket dessie, because they dont matter. you cant really argue about something that the devs already know about and are planning to remove, no matter what you do.
otherwise i think its close enough that i dont have a problem with your stance ent.
and actually the frigate is pretty good. i was flying an interceptor frigate on UGTO and doing pretty well. through some smart flying i killed 2 supply ships, and got a kluth dread to FF his teammate bomber whod just failed an attack on a planet. dead bomber =P thats pretty good for a lowly frigate hehe
@ent, one other thing though. i do feel the *anything can beat anything* rule should still apply. obviously tho, this is on a scale time factor. i think a destroyer should be able to beat a dreadnaught, given said destroyer has the 15-20 minutes to spare to plow away at the dreads armour. before all this modding abuse came along i think it was pretty close to this. all that needs to be fixed are the crazy modded ships and everything will be good and happy again.
PS. because i didnt disagree with you enough...
I Win
[ This Message was edited by: N'Kra The Wolf {C?} on 2005-08-19 22:44 ]
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Raven Division Command - 1st Division
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Sixkiller
Marshal
Courageous Elite Commandos
Joined: May 11, 2005
Posts: 1786
From: Netherlands
| Posted: 2005-08-20 03:10
only time i whine when i get killed by a dread is when it switches core weapons or when its something like a missile dread with torpedos.
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