| Author |
1.7 Layouts: Where we are |
Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
|  Posted: 2013-09-06 17:29
I tested out the Krill myself earlier today.
While a Krill is capable of taking on a Battle Dread, when I did it, there were a few issues that kept me from ultimately keeping perfect range.
a.) Cloaking - 12 second cloak timer that doesn't get reduced except by one enhancement. 12 seconds is a long time to be vulnerable, so everytime I needed to reposition, I had to leave myself open to attack.
b.) Energy - Trying to even sit still with one ECCM going on me, my energy started to drop noticably. Staying cloaked meant that I had to act fast to get in the right position, but that wasn't easy because of
c.) Mass - Super slow turn rates and acceleration meant I was an easy target at all ranges.
I still managed to win - barely, with less than a 100 energy and 16 hull. Another frigate could have popped me at that point.
It was a difficult fight, and I had to pull out all the stops - I'm not too worried about its balance.
-Ent
_________________
|
Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2013-09-06 17:41
Good to see the defense changes have balanced out the damage, though I still question the range on the SI.
_________________
Adapt or die.
|
Iwancoppa
Fleet Admiral
Joined: November 15, 2008
Posts: 709
| Posted: 2013-09-06 18:54
Enterprise, That's a very interesting battle and it seems that the Krill is...
working as intended.
_________________
|
-xTc- ExisT
Chief Marshal
Army Of Darkness
Joined: March 20, 2010
Posts: 534
From: Red Lobster
| Posted: 2013-09-07 00:08
Long live the restored krill, may all of you curse it's SI spewing glory up to the very moments prior to your death.
_________________
*Connection lost, attempting reconnect in 30 seconds....
Do you really want to just pay bills until you die?
|
Fluttershy
Fleet Admiral
Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy
| Posted: 2013-09-07 04:09
Close fight but it still won.
There's one thing being forgotten, I think...
UGTO and ICC can be tracked and hunted down in all but the most well-planned and long-distance cases.
K'Luth can jump to a safe haven and cloak, be it an e-jump, a long jump, or a retreat to a friendly planet.
Being able to escape with little chance of being pursued (Yes it does happen, but not enough to matter) is where the K'Luth really shine.
If the humans cannot defeat a K'Luth equivalent, or even survive the first strike in a face to face battle, then something is wrong. What is the point of having all that moveable shield and thick armor?
Besides that, K'Luth also have self repairing hull on ALL ships, not just stations.
Some have ELF beams or ELF torps which prolong their combat endurance and cripple the enemy.
They got two weaknesses, really, paper armor, and high energy usage, neither of which seem to be an issue when you can defeat an enemy at the first encounter without losing all energy before hand, and your blistering forward firepower quickly wrecking even a thickly armored dreadnaught in seconds, making it a fight of hull strength, which is equal between all factions, and where K'Luth always seem to overtake the humans.
So... perhaps a suggestion: Give K'Luth their own ship hulls, and make those a bit more fragile compared to human ships.
They could even be set to be stealthier or faster than human hulls, or weigh less, or more, whatever seems proper.
_________________
|
DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
| Posted: 2013-09-07 13:33
In 1.6, weight of dread2 hull is 31. Each arc of UGTO standard armor on a dread adds about .95 mass so 9 armor on EAD adds 8.55. EAD total weight is estimatedly 39.55; acceleration is about 0.8gu/s; turning speed is around 0.15 rad/s
In 1.7, weight of dread2 hull is 54.25 (175% x 31). 9 armor on EAD adds 4.28 (8.55 / 2). EAD total weight is estimatedly 58.525; acceleration is about 0.5gu/s; turning speed is around 0.10rad/s
Judging from this number, we can say that armor weight does not affect ship as much as hull does. From Enterprise test, I can say that it's fair and square to all factions that if armor do not add mass OR shields do add mass.
IMO, velocity should be the only factor to be restricted. I wonder why it's a must to add too much mass to dread to make it's a giant snail. If I have to choose between
- Lower velocity; same weight.
- Same velocity; heavier weight.
I prefer option 1.
The heavier dreads make the game dramatically boring TBH. A slow motion game! I can live with 10 gu/s velocity and 31 hull weight dread; 54.25 hull weight is out of sustained ability.
_________________
|
Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2013-09-07 13:39
Quote:
On 2013-09-07 13:33, DiepLuc wrote:
The heavier dreads make the game dramatically boring TBH. A slow motion game! I can live with 10 gu/s velocity and 31 hull weight dread; 54.25 hull weight is out of sustained ability.
|
Have you tried something else besides a dread?
_________________
|
Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2013-09-07 15:16
Quote:
On 2013-09-07 13:33, DiepLuc wrote:
IMO, velocity should be the only factor to be restricted. I wonder why it's a must to add too much mass to dread to make it's a giant snail. If I have to choose between
- Lower velocity; same weight.
- Same velocity; heavier weight.
I prefer option 1.
The heavier dreads make the game dramatically boring TBH. A slow motion game! I can live with 10 gu/s velocity and 31 hull weight dread; 54.25 hull weight is out of sustained ability.
|
Dreadnoughts are meant for combat against Stations and other Dreadnoughts, they got increased hull mass because they were too maneuverable. In release right now they're nearly able to keep up turning with Destroyers and Cruisers that are trying to get on their rear arc, but now in beta they're where they should've been all along.
_________________
Adapt or die.
|
DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
| Posted: 2013-09-07 16:38
Quote:
On 2013-09-07 13:39, Fattierob wrote:
Have you tried something else besides a dread?
|
Des & Cruiser & Station.
Des is quite more useful. It's the most hightlight.
Cruiser is a bit slower than in release. Various choice.
All stations are now equal in mass, so it does not make much different feeling, although I only play combat/command station twice in 1.6.
Quote:
On 2013-09-07 15:16, Talien wrote:
Dreadnoughts are meant for combat against Stations and other Dreadnoughts
|
It depends on the talent of the ship: cannon dread vs torp cruiser; missle destroyer vs escort dread; beam dread vs beam dread.
Quote:
On 2013-09-07 15:16, Talien wrote:
In release right now they're nearly able to keep up turning with Destroyers and Cruisers that are trying to get on their rear arc, but now in beta they're where they should've been all along.
|
It depends on the weapon arc.
There are two way to make dread less maneuverable: decrease velocity or increase mass. I prefer decrease velocity. It still give place to good dual between dreads while allow smaller ship to fight against dreads. With 5 gu/s difference, a scout can counter attack a frigate. I guess it's possible for a 20gu/s cruiser to fight a 10gu/s dread.
Station velocity is also decreased from 3.5gu/s to 3.0gu/s. I wish that battle/command station mass had brought in line with support station (83 -> 73), unlike 73->83.
Dread is also used in combat against station. I'm looking for tests between dread vs station. Lately when I joined beta, I was alone.
[ This Message was edited by: DiepLuc on 2013-09-08 04:25 ]
_________________
|
Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2013-09-07 18:26
Quote:
On 2013-09-07 04:09, Fluttershy wrote:
Close fight but it still won.
There's one thing being forgotten, I think...
UGTO and ICC can be tracked and hunted down in all but the most well-planned and long-distance cases.
K'Luth can jump to a safe haven and cloak, be it an e-jump, a long jump, or a retreat to a friendly planet.
Being able to escape with little chance of being pursued (Yes it does happen, but not enough to matter) is where the K'Luth really shine.
|
The interesting thing is, this only holds true to a degree. You see, a lot of people don't understand just how important detection changes are, and how much cloak has really been nerfed.
Now, firstly, jump drive distances have been shortened in general, and timers increased - so hopping around everywhere isn't an option, even for KLuth.
Now on top of that, cloak is extremely vulnerable to ECCM, so yes you can decloak Kluth ships over an incredible range.
So it won't be hard for specialized EWAR ships to hunt down the larger Kluth dreads, as the cloak time is still extremely long, and there is time.
Is it easier for a Kluth to find a human ship? Only with their own EWAR scouts. Let me explain.
Detection ranges for your average ship are MUCH MUCH lower than in Release - enough that with the few ECM that the average ship packs, your enemy is going to have to land close.
Very close - like 500gu close. If you're in the negative? They'll have to see you visually. You can hide in deep space almost better than they can.
Quote:
If the humans cannot defeat a K'Luth equivalent, or even survive the first strike in a face to face battle, then something is wrong. What is the point of having all that moveable shield and thick armor?
|
You've got to understand.. I'm a really good pilot, and he was a really good pilot, and the battle was very close. If I had made any more mistakes he would have surely won.
Quote:
Besides that, K'Luth also have self repairing hull on ALL ships, not just stations.
|
It's only really great out of battle.. any significant EMP damage overwhelms the whole system. It really doesn't take much. Its not as good as it used to be, you can almost go for Chitnous Armor now.
Quote:
Some have ELF beams or ELF torps which prolong their combat endurance and cripple the enemy.
|
UGTO get EMP in all its glorious variants, and it HURTS LIKE HELL. You should try it out sometime - can outbeat ELF. My EMP Bastion was a monster. Try it out.
ICC's shields still outlast Kluth organic armor and especially against ELF beams and torps - the raw damage back at them would drive them away.
Quote:
They got two weaknesses, really, paper armor, and high energy usage, neither of which seem to be an issue when you can defeat an enemy at the first encounter without losing all energy before hand, and your blistering forward firepower quickly wrecking even a thickly armored dreadnaught in seconds, making it a fight of hull strength, which is equal between all factions, and where K'Luth always seem to overtake the humans.
|
But they are huge weaknesses, and the KLuth cloak isn't nearly as good as it used to be. I haven't seen you in beta much, and it shows - Kluth are actually vulnerable when they decide to attack.
And it costs them dearly in energy when they cloak, as even the tiniest of ECCM starts a drain that has a huge effect the more there is. You can decloak ships outright. And Kluth's energy doesn't last forever, even with ELF beams. They have to take the time to stop, but they can't stop. Playing a Dread now on Kluth is saying all in. You better be prepared to throw everything, and you'll still be cirpple in the process.
Quote:
So... perhaps a suggestion: Give K'Luth their own ship hulls, and make those a bit more fragile compared to human ships.
They could even be set to be stealthier or faster than human hulls, or weigh less, or more, whatever seems proper.
|
They're weak enough...
Kluth have plenty of weaknesses, you just haven't bothered to try and find them out. We've put them there on purpose. They're not as good anymore. You should really try it out.
At this point, if you let yourself get murdered its more the fault of the player.
-Ent
_________________
|
Fluttershy
Fleet Admiral
Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy
| Posted: 2013-09-07 20:42
OK, they obviously underwent several new changes so I'll test them again.
_________________
|
Jim Starluck
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 2232
From: Cincinnati, OH
| Posted: 2013-09-08 08:48
Just FYI, the new K'Luth Hive went into Beta overnight.
_________________
If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger space battleship and try again.
|
Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2013-09-08 23:46
Quote:
On 2013-09-06 17:29, Enterprise wrote:
I tested out the Krill myself earlier today.
While a Krill is capable of taking on a Battle Dread, when I did it, there were a few issues that kept me from ultimately keeping perfect range.
a.) Cloaking - 12 second cloak timer that doesn't get reduced except by one enhancement. 12 seconds is a long time to be vulnerable, so everytime I needed to reposition, I had to leave myself open to attack.
b.) Energy - Trying to even sit still with one ECCM going on me, my energy started to drop noticably. Staying cloaked meant that I had to act fast to get in the right position, but that wasn't easy because of
c.) Mass - Super slow turn rates and acceleration meant I was an easy target at all ranges.
I still managed to win - barely, with less than a 100 energy and 16 hull. Another frigate could have popped me at that point.
It was a difficult fight, and I had to pull out all the stops - I'm not too worried about its balance.
-Ent
|
Krill was never meant to duke it out. It's supposed to be a med-range fire support ship, shooting at distracted enemies while they're busy knife fighting someone else.
That's how I use it anyway. I would never duel in a Krill. Hell, I don't do duels anyway. K'Luth ships were never made for dueling equivalent sized/class human ships. You hit and run, first strike. And let the second group of lobsters do the mopping up.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo on 2013-09-08 23:48 ]
_________________
... in space, no one can hear you scream.....
|
Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2013-09-09 02:17
Quote:
On 2013-09-07 16:38, DiepLuc wrote:
It depends on the talent of the ship: cannon dread vs torp cruiser; missle destroyer vs escort dread; beam dread vs beam dread.
|
Yes, if it has cannons it would keep Cruisers from getting too close.
Quote:
It depends on the weapon arc.
|
Weapon arcs won't make it more maneuverable, in beta you're doing something very wrong if an AD/EAD is able to keep it's forward arc pointed at you if you're in anything smaller than another Dreadnought.
Quote:
There are two way to make dread less maneuverable: decrease velocity or increase mass. I prefer decrease velocity. It still give place to good dual between dreads while allow smaller ship to fight against dreads. With 5 gu/s difference, a scout can counter attack a frigate. I guess it's possible for a 20gu/s cruiser to fight a 10gu/s dread.
|
It's not so much speed that was the issue, it's turn rate.
_________________
Adapt or die.
|
Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2013-09-09 03:25
Was in Beta, trying the Krill out.
TBH, it was a horrible ship to fly if you want to compare it to the previous version of the Krill (the one with 8 SIs...)
The SIs take quite some time to cool down between shots. And the drain from the recharge was pretty harsh. Add to that the cloak drain and you just KNOW this ship won't survive a knife fight with a beam/torp dread... maybe even a cannon dread. It has to keep at arm's length to be useful.
Definitely a fire-support ship.
_________________
... in space, no one can hear you scream.....
|
English
Deutsch
Nederlands
)
