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New double the pres lost |
Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
|  Posted: 2011-04-05 22:18
Yay. All is well.
..... now can we up the cost of losing stations again? 
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Eledore Massis [R33]
Grand Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: May 26, 2002
Posts: 2694
From: tsohlacoLocalhost
| Posted: 2011-04-06 03:35
Quote:
| On 2011-04-05 22:18, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
..... now can we up the cost of losing stations again? |
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Quote:
| On 2011-04-03 19:54, Eledore Massis [R33] wrote:
Development Log
- Due to popular request, death cost has been doubled for all ships across the board (except ships that have no resource cost).
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All ships!!
Stations are ships, so station prestige loss has been doubled as well. LTR.
E.
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
| Posted: 2011-04-06 04:34
Kenny means double res the 2nd time. You're insane, Kenny.
I suggest we pick the other choice: higher the cost that following rank must pay. Ig: die in the same ship, a FA loses 10 pres, a GA loses 10*1,1 = 11 pres, a M loses 10*1,2 = 12 pres; in 1.670, if an a FA loses 10 pres, a GA loses 10*1,2 = 12 pres, a M loses 10*1,4 = 14 pres.
I think this is actually what we are looking forward to. Generally, when you look at the rank of a player, you bet the higher rank that one is, the better the pilot skills are. So, apply that logic, same mistake from the higher rank must be punished more strictly than the lower rank.
Although I say this with my brain, my heart tells me that I don't prepare to see dev log 1.670: double the rate res loss affected by rank.
[ This Message was edited by: chlorophyll on 2011-04-06 05:06 ]
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2011-04-06 05:12
Quote:
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On 2011-04-06 04:34, chlorophyll wrote:
Kenny means double res the 2nd time. You're insane, Kenny.
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Yes, for stations only. That should fix the spam.
*evil grinz*
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-Shadowalker-™
Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: September 23, 2007
Posts: 709
From: Shadows
| Posted: 2011-04-06 07:14
I say double it again, that way its alteast half of what it used to be -_-, like ent said, it was more fun when we had a challenge
1. Cross Faction Ship Modding: ha, i remember sitting in an Icc frigate scouraging old battle fields looking for an PSI cannon that wasnt to high a level so that i could switch out my rail guns
2. Complete ship loss: dam it hurt whrn you lose a fully moded ship
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Eledore Massis [R33]
Grand Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: May 26, 2002
Posts: 2694
From: tsohlacoLocalhost
| Posted: 2011-04-06 07:18
Quote:
| On 2011-04-06 04:34, chlorophyll wrote:
I suggest we pick the other choice: higher the cost that following rank must pay. Ig: die in the same ship, a FA loses 10 pres, a GA loses 10*1,1 = 11 pres, a M loses 10*1,2 = 12 pres; in 1.670, if an a FA loses 10 pres, a GA loses 10*1,2 = 12 pres, a M loses 10*1,4 = 14 pres.
I think this is actually what we are looking forward to. Generally, when you look at the rank of a player, you bet the higher rank that one is, the better the pilot skills are. So, apply that logic, same mistake from the higher rank must be punished more strictly than the lower rank. |
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Ship resources * (Rank * Multiplier) = Resources Lost
Is this what you want? with this, changing multiplier will allow us to fine tune the prestige loss of a ship per rank.
We could easily do this without much work. 
E.
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2011-04-06 09:23
Quote:
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On 2011-04-06 07:18, Eledore Massis [R33] wrote:
Quote:
| On 2011-04-06 04:34, chlorophyll wrote:
I suggest we pick the other choice: higher the cost that following rank must pay. Ig: die in the same ship, a FA loses 10 pres, a GA loses 10*1,1 = 11 pres, a M loses 10*1,2 = 12 pres; in 1.670, if an a FA loses 10 pres, a GA loses 10*1,2 = 12 pres, a M loses 10*1,4 = 14 pres.
I think this is actually what we are looking forward to. Generally, when you look at the rank of a player, you bet the higher rank that one is, the better the pilot skills are. So, apply that logic, same mistake from the higher rank must be punished more strictly than the lower rank. |
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Ship resources * (Rank * Multiplier) = Resources Lost
Is this what you want? with this, changing multiplier will allow us to fine tune the prestige loss of a ship per rank.
We could easily do this without much work.
E.
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To be perfectly honest...
I want this more than anything. This alone would be more than enough to bring Dreadspace and Stationspam to a halt. It would reverse a prestige whoring trend that has gone on for far too long in a heartbeat. It will also make players with no ability whatsoever flee the game. Choose your poison? Heres the deal.
The plain fact is, I don't think gain should be nerfed, if you're a good pilot you should be raking it in. 5k prestige in 2 hours? Fine, if you don't die. But if you do...
This is why ranking is the best way, its what I really wanted personally, but from a logical point of view as well. Chloro explained it nicely enough. If you have the rank, you should be good enough to keep it.
Rank as it is, isn't volatile enough, or rather I should say, the risk is non-existent. Doing it by ship class is even better, it keep stupid players out of powerful ships. It brings a sense of worth. Worth is very, very important.
How would you feel about your dread or station if you knew when you died you'd be 3k prestige out of the bucket? How much would you be happy to be CM, to know too that it had to be earned otherwise you would not have it.
Some people who are poor in the field of psychology won't understand, they will call it elitist. I know it for being a vital MMO mechanic. Things must have worth, otherwise its difficult to keep a person interested. Its a smiple analogy. You can fly a dread, just like everyone else. At first its exciting but then when you realize how painfully common it is, it feels worthless. Theres not even the thrill of combat because you know your death is a setback at the smallest.
People complain about dreadspace and stationspam for a reason - it discourages newbies, it makes battles one sided, predictable, and boring, and so on. Homogenous fleets lack anything interesting and its slowly killing off what few dedicated players are left.
So heres the deal. Ramp it up by rank. Alot. You can do it by increments to find the sweet spot, but the goal should be simple : a good player can make 2-3k prestige an hour in a dreadnaught. Assuming we only want good players flying these ships, what is the appropriate risk? At Admiral you can give leeway. But what about CM? Why should prestige ever for a moment, stop mattering?
It shouldn't, and thats the point at the heart of the debate. The worth of prestige is determined by its gain and loss. We want the incentive to stay so we keep prestige gain high. But we want more risk, especially with those without any.
Scale it by rank. Scale it high, scale it hard, and make it tough. If people want to fly dreads and stations, fine. If they want to spam them, go for it. But if they die they should pay a price that befitting their rank. Its logically sound.
-Ent
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-Shadowalker-™
Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: September 23, 2007
Posts: 709
From: Shadows
| Posted: 2011-04-06 10:19
Quote:
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On 2011-04-06 09:23, Enterprise wrote:
Scale it by rank. Scale it high, scale it hard, and make it tough. If people want to fly dreads and stations, fine. If they want to spam them, go for it. But if they die they should pay a price that befitting their rank. Its logically sound.
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couldnt have said it better
[ This Message was edited by: -Shadowalker-™ on 2011-04-06 10:20 ]
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2011-04-06 12:21
Quote:
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On 2011-04-06 09:23, Enterprise wrote:
Scale it by rank. Scale it high, scale it hard, and make it tough. If people want to fly dreads and stations, fine. If they want to spam them, go for it. But if they die they should pay a price that befitting their rank. Its logically sound.
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Yeah, I can't argue with that, really.
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Tael
2nd Rear Admiral
Palestar
Joined: July 03, 2002
Posts: 3695
From: San Francisco Bay Area
| Posted: 2011-04-06 20:01
Don't die...
Don't go into battle without backup...
Don't take out a ship whose lost resource value is higher than you can afford...
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*FTL*Soulless
Marshal
Joined: June 25, 2010
Posts: 787
From: Dres-Kona
| Posted: 2011-04-06 20:31
I don't think that anyone can say it any better or nail the problem right on the head better than Enterprise just did.
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2011-04-07 12:08
Quote:
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On 2011-04-06 20:01, Tael wrote:
Don't die...
Don't go into battle without backup...
Don't take out a ship whose lost resource value is higher than you can afford...
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but it's fun to die in this game, People need to do it more.
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2011-04-07 13:48
Quote:
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On 2011-04-06 09:23, Enterprise wrote:
How would you feel about your dread or station if you knew when you died you'd be 3k prestige out of the bucket? How much would you be happy to be CM, to know too that it had to be earned otherwise you would not have it.
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On the first part I'd say it was stupid, because I cannt expect to reasonably recoup my loss. This would simply cause me to not fight, or only fight when I was in UGTO type numbers. I dont need this kind of punishment for others, nor myself, to prove I earned my rank. I dont have 1 mill. I played for 6 years. Those aren't the numbers of a dirt farmer.
Quote:
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So heres the deal. Ramp it up by rank. Alot. You can do it by increments to find the sweet spot, but the goal should be simple : a good player can make 2-3k prestige an hour in a dreadnaught. Assuming we only want good players flying these ships, what is the appropriate risk? At Admiral you can give leeway. But what about CM? Why should prestige ever for a moment, stop mattering?
It shouldn't, and thats the point at the heart of the debate. The worth of prestige is determined by its gain and loss. We want the incentive to stay so we keep prestige gain high. But we want more risk, especially with those without any.
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I never ever cared about pres. I care about entertainment. To care about pres is to take the FUN out of the GAME. If any game is going to succeed it has to be fun.
Also, I am not sure why where you get the amount of pres per hour. If there are less big ships, than battles last longer, and the pres comes slower because of it. And if you punish having bigger ships so hard, the only people in big ships are the people who just got them or the idiots or the apathetics.
Quote:
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Scale it by rank. Scale it high, scale it hard, and make it tough. If people want to fly dreads and stations, fine. If they want to spam them, go for it. But if they die they should pay a price that befitting their rank. Its logically sound.
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I agree scale to rank. But just because a person has more rank doesnt mean he should be kicked in the balls five times when somebody else with the same ship but two ranks lower only gets kicked in the balls twice. That's where this sadistic need to punish comes in again.
I don't get it. Earn new ships so you can be penalized more. Earn higher rank so you can get kicked in the balls more. Woo hoo! Umm. Why bother? Seriously? Why bother to earn a new ship or rank at all? Just sit in a frig for the next 9 months until you finally say "why am I doing this?".
And this is good for the game how exactly?
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2011-04-07 15:15
You could say increasing pres loss(to some of the ridonkulously high ammounts posted) will make people flock in numbers, any outnumbered faction can't pull out big ships because of the sheer ammount of enemy big ships who have a considerably less risk of dying.
This would in turn lead to much faction hopping.
Like many issues such as faction hopping people can find loop holes, it is hard to actually fix the problem.
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
| Posted: 2011-04-07 15:19
Quote:
| On 2011-04-06 07:18, Eledore Massis [R33] wrote:
Ship resources * (Rank * Multiplier) = Resources Lost
Is this what you want? with this, changing multiplier will allow us to fine tune the prestige loss of a ship per rank.
We could easily do this without much work.
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I not only agree with Az, but I could also not deny Ent. Both critics are logical. What we need is a combination of both idea in the fair way.
Here is the deal:
In stead of Ship Resources {X} * (Rank * Multiplier) {Y}= Resources Lost
We choose B: Ship Resources {X} * (Ship Rank * Multiplier) {Z} = Resources Lost
It's true that what a pain to get higher rank to be penalized more strictly. The talent to drive a ship should not be judged by rank, because you don't archive rank solely by using that ship.
It should be criticized by ship rank. The question "Hey, you are using the Grand Admiral ship, are you good enough to use it?" sounds more acceptable than "Hey, you're Grand Admiral, are you good enough to use Line Station?". That's ridiculous cause we don't have time to train all skills of all ships in game due to garrage limitation and resource cost per new spawn ship.
An example of applying the formula.
You're using Nest, same rank as Krill. Z is the same but X is different. You have to think carefully because when you get a ship out of a planet that isn't the one you dock, you take away resource on the planet. You're punished more strictly because you're taking more resource the community are sharing than the others do.
The idea is, I don't really care how skillful you are. But I know you're using more resource than I am. You may force me to mine before I can get my ship, when you assure a higher chance of gaining prestige than I do. So you must take more dangrous risk in order to remind you the responsibility you're holding and the trust which the faction is laying on you. This is MMO game, the personaly penalty ought to be for the sake of the common members. Invidual punishment is taken as an apology to community rather than self mistake.
Recently, this topic has been spoken in opinions towards red side. Mine is towards green side. It's sad that when a red ring covers a planet in another system, some green players launch dread/stations/cruiser out of garrage and then the rest has to mine or carry resource to the SY.
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