| Author |
Anti-stealth weapons |
Demigan
Vice Admiral
Joined: September 12, 2011
Posts: 88
|  Posted: 2011-09-29 04:25
I always play ICC currently, simply because I started with it, and I see no reason to switch sides because of unbalances. The unbalances should be adressed, not which side i"m on.
Yesterday, I could finally use cruisers, Taking an heavy cruiser, I started attacking the luth who were staging a major and mostly successful assault against us.
At one point, I was 20 GU behind a luth destroyer, in around 5 shots his back armor was gone, and I unloaded my full arsenal at him, all hits. Result: 5-7% hull damage.
Immidiately a player luth decloaks with a luth destroyer, and he does the EXACT same to me. 5 shots and ALL my shields and my back armour were gone (advantage 1 of ICC gone: rotational shielding isn't stronger then armour), then he unloaded his full arsenal and dealt more then 20% hull damage.
their destroyer is more powerful then an ICC cruiser. Which is in itself crooked. He could have handled me if he had attacked me FULL FRONTAL! In fact, if another ICC cruiser would have attacked him from behind, he would STILL DEAL MORE HULL DAMAGE as his back armour can withstand as much as my full directional shields and one direction of armour.
ICC is supposed to keep at range and deal lots of damage that way. But we can't vs the luth, it's no use.
Luth will simply cloak till they are close, decloak and attack. As shown with what happened above, even a superior ship was unable to withstand a lower ranked ship if they had fought full frontal. Hell, even with help he could have handled me!
Worse, the luth have 2 ways to get away: first is e-jump, which can be countered by a interdictor, second is cloak, which can be countered for less then a second with a ping attack, with 5-7% hull damage in that second, you cannot really kill luth players at all.
This is a bit (very) crooked, we should have at least SOME kind of capability to defend against luth. So my proposition is to simply to add a device that allows us to decloak luth at a range of 500 or 700 GU. The luth are dangerous enough vs ICC as it is without stealth. It will still be rather unbalanced, but it will be manageable if teamplay is involved.
Yours sincerely,
Demigan.
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[ML]RogueAvengerTTV
Marshal
Joined: September 11, 2010
Posts: 300
From: England
| Posted: 2011-09-29 04:45
Quote:
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On 2011-09-29 04:25, Demigan wrote:
I always play ICC currently, simply because I started with it, and I see no reason to switch sides because of unbalances. The unbalances should be adressed, not which side i"m on.
Yesterday, I could finally use cruisers, Taking an heavy cruiser, I started attacking the luth who were staging a major and mostly successful assault against us.
At one point, I was 20 GU behind a luth destroyer, in around 5 shots his back armor was gone, and I unloaded my full arsenal at him, all hits. Result: 5-7% hull damage.
Immidiately a player luth decloaks with a luth destroyer, and he does the EXACT same to me. 5 shots and ALL my shields and my back armour were gone (advantage 1 of ICC gone: rotational shielding isn't stronger then armour), then he unloaded his full arsenal and dealt more then 20% hull damage.
their destroyer is more powerful then an ICC cruiser. Which is in itself crooked. He could have handled me if he had attacked me FULL FRONTAL! In fact, if another ICC cruiser would have attacked him from behind, he would STILL DEAL MORE HULL DAMAGE as his back armour can withstand as much as my full directional shields and one direction of armour.
ICC is supposed to keep at range and deal lots of damage that way. But we can't vs the luth, it's no use.
Luth will simply cloak till they are close, decloak and attack. As shown with what happened above, even a superior ship was unable to withstand a lower ranked ship if they had fought full frontal. Hell, even with help he could have handled me!
Worse, the luth have 2 ways to get away: first is e-jump, which can be countered by a interdictor, second is cloak, which can be countered for less then a second with a ping attack, with 5-7% hull damage in that second, you cannot really kill luth players at all.
This is a bit (very) crooked, we should have at least SOME kind of capability to defend against luth. So my proposition is to simply to add a device that allows us to decloak luth at a range of 500 or 700 GU. The luth are dangerous enough vs ICC as it is without stealth. It will still be rather unbalanced, but it will be manageable if teamplay is involved.
Yours sincerely,
Demigan.
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LOL if u can uncloak luth at 500gu - 700gu then why cloak at all ? and also yesterday i was the luth player i was at around 189gu in a siphon so i could easily alpha you and allmost kill you and also i have beam multiplexors the whole idea of luth it to jump cloak sneak up and attack the enemy at close range if u take away this why play luth at all no offence intended but you should learn to play better befor trying to suggest a major nurf to one faction
So heres a tip that i use when playing icc:
Personaly i use the strike crusier because of the 3 core weapons now when a luth player uncloaks behind you press shift-J then j ull jump around 1k gu at which range you can still attack but the kluth cant no if the player recloaks thats a bummer but you can atleast kill the ai that attacked you its not hard to defeat luth at all another tip is to bring all the ai you can to you as the use eccms alot which if they ping uncloaks a luth no when a luth cloaks its still possible to attack the just crtl click a region of space amd fire see if u hit them
sheilds as well active and reactive are very diffrent make sure u have the right one if your not sure ask a player on your team and use defence mode it can save you life!
Please in future think before you post somthing like this if you took away what you asked you take almost all of luths factional advantages
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2011-09-29 04:48
Every ICC pilot goes through this stage.
The stage where you feel absolutly helpless against your enemy.
Know that it gets better, and you will learn ways around it.
now to adress your main issues.
1. DS is designed so that a smaller ship has an advantage vs a larger ship. Smalller ships are ment to attack one class above them.
2. Generaly speaking, kluth ships are rated one hull class above their actual size until you get to dreads. That is, the combat potential of a kluth destroyer more mimics the power of a human cruiser. This is nothing new.
3. Kluth are not ment to be faught alone but there are things you can do to help your chances. ECCM when switched on causes a spike in every ship around you, thus uncloaking kluth ships for a split second. This will ensure your not taken by suprise. Usualy only works if the kluth is within 500gu or so of you.
After you have detected a kluth you can blind fire in his direction. Controle click a point in space and your weapons will aim at that general area. With practice, you can learn to predict their movements and hit them as if they were not cloaked at all. I find that most kluth whom have their element of suprise ruined are forced to either prematurely attack, or retreat.
Also you can try to predict where the kluth will show up next planet wise, and build a eccm fort with planetary sencor bases and sencor plats. Also make sure the planet has an indictor. You may get called names for planet hugging, but dont listen. Fight where you have the advantage. Also dont be afraid to break off and re-engage later. We ecxell at prolonged combat.
Also, never close to within 300gu of any kluth ship. You loose your advantages when you do. if a kluth ship gets the drop on you within 300gu, consider excape routes. The best Ejump is through a friendly indictor. Most kluth cannot track your movements around a indictor. Some can.
Your torps are for engaging dreads with. Dont even bother fireing them at anything else.
Consider using a boarder cruiser instead of a HC, but only if you feel you have mastered shield management. If you should decide to take a BC, fit outer shields with active, and keep reactive shields on the inside. Bind all your active shields to number 8 at the top of your keyboard. and all reactive to 9. Trade out all gauss guns (on every ship really) for rail. Gauss take too much energy. Once upon a time they did more damage than rail, but that time is long since past, and i dont know when it was changed.
I hope this helps, If you need any further assistance, pls post and i will do my best to assist you brother.
Again, we all go through this stage. Most of us come through it with our heads intact.
Also i would like to ask that people not bash him for this post. Give him time to learn and grow. No need to run anyone off because of a natural evolution of game play. I do literaly mean all of us go through this.
*From FTL Forums*
ICC ships can reinforce their strongest firing arc to keep it trained on the enemy for longer than enemies can. Shield rotation is achieved two ways. The first way, and most practical, is using the number pad keys to rotate shield energy to the needed arc.
....................8(front)
4(Left)...........................6(right)
................... 2(back)
The second method is to right click on the shield in the gadget list on the lower left hand of your screen. Every number press or click raises shield energy on that arc by 20%
[Defense Mode]
Defense mode gives ICC shields 4x regeneration rate at 8x power cost. The most efficient use of defense mode in combat involves only putting select shield and shield facings on defense mode.
(control- s) cycles shield modes
*shields on = shields on and ready for incoming fire (this is the default mode)
*Shields Off = Defense mode on
*Shields Off = Shields and defense mode off.
Managing shield states, and shied rotation are vitally important to the successful operation of the new Border cruiser.
FTL Border Cruiser fleet flag ship;
All rail guns
All chemical beams
Outer layer of Active Shields
Inner Layer of Reactive Shields
ECM
1x Color Trail
3x ADV Engine Tuner
4x ADV Weapons Multipliers
All rail gun setup on this ship maximizes its energy, speed, and stealth capabilities.
All chemical beams ensures you have some bite for taking on smaller ships than you at close range. Run these in PD off mode to ensure you don’t waste any energy or blow your cover under ecm. Any missiles fired at you can be dealt with using pulse shield, maneuverability, or ecm. (now takes two ECM ships flying in formation)
Changing the outer layer of shields to active will ensure you can tank some damage from alpha strikes of assault class ships and live to tell about it.
Reading your gadget list like a paragraph (top left to bottom right) your first shield gadget you come across is on the inside. Next one is on the outside. Next is inside. The pattern repeats itself for the remaining shields as well.
If your having trouble following the pattern, there is a second method. When you spawn a new BC, have a friend fire one beam at each of your arcs one at a time. When you see a shield take damage in your gadget list, select it and turn it off using the yellow arrow buttons located in the bottom right of your screen.
Once these steps have been repeated for each arc, you should have 4 shield generators turned off. Replace these with active. Be sure to have a friend help you check your work. A reactive shield on the outside of one of your arcs is a fatal flaw.
Next select each active shield and push shift 8 (numbers at top of keyboard). This assigns the number 8 to manage all of your active shields. Regular number pad shield rotation will still work the same.
Select each reactive shield generator and push shift 9 (numbers at top of keyboard). This assigns the number 8 to manage all of your reactive shields. Regular number pad shield rotation will still work the same.
Now that you have your shields set up like this there are a number of really awesome things you can do!
Shift 8 will now switch the state of your active shields.
8 will evenly distribute shield energy from your reactive shields into your active!
Shift 9 will now switch the state of your reactive shields.
9…. Yea don’t ever distribute energy evenly to reactive….
Now there are near limitless applications of shield states for a number of situations. I will list a couple that won’t put BC pilots at risk for the enemy to know. Up to you to discover them all.
*ECM Stealth (now takes two ECM ships flying in formation)
From standard all shields on normal.
Push Shift 8, Shift 8, M.
(your active shields are off and ecm is now running)
If you come under attack push sift 8, M. Your shields are now all on and your ecm is off.
*Efficient Defense mode
From standard
Push shift 9, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, ect until active shields are full.
Once shields are full, or otherwise want to terminate defense mode, push shift 9, shift9.
In closing, the BC is best left to those who have mastered ICC shields. Mismanagement of shields on a BC will end with your death. Keep in mind that you can quickly shuck away all your defenses into one arc leaving you vulnerable for a secondary attack. Once a battle has begun and you have taken a lot of shield damage, don’t expect energy to rise fast under combat conditions.
[ This Message was edited by: *XO*Defiance{CM7} on 2011-09-29 05:00 ]
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Pantheon
Marshal
Palestar
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1789
| Posted: 2011-09-29 05:32
Your weapons fire faster than his do (considerably) - you can get off many more alpha's in the same space of time that his weapons will cycle. % of damage done in one alpha doesn't mean all that much, since one ship can fire another alpha in under a second, whilst the other has to wait 4 or 5.
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Whiterin
Fleet Admiral
Joined: November 15, 2007
Posts: 146
| Posted: 2011-09-29 05:39
Some people will pile on excuses for this, but the simple fact is ICC is far unbalanced compared to Kluth. The Claw (a Kluth dessy, most likely the type that attacked you) has FAR more firepower then ICC cruisers. A Claw vs ICC cruiser will always go to the Claw. From what I have seen, it gets a little better when you hit dreads, but most ICC can never field dreads due to other imbalanced. It's quite a pain, and no one cares enough to fix it. It's why you will find virtually no ICC players even when there are 5+ players on the other factions. I love ICC, but I won't play it anymore because of the exact situation you're in.
I moved to UGTO, and was amazed at the difference.
And yes, I will get flamed by a few people for my post, but most people know it's true, as you yourself have just found out.
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[ML]RogueAvengerTTV
Marshal
Joined: September 11, 2010
Posts: 300
From: England
| Posted: 2011-09-29 06:07
Quote:
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On 2011-09-29 05:39, Whiterin wrote:
Some people will pile on excuses for this, but the simple fact is ICC is far unbalanced compared to Kluth. The Claw (a Kluth dessy, most likely the type that attacked you) has FAR more firepower then ICC cruisers. A Claw vs ICC cruiser will always go to the Claw. From what I have seen, it gets a little better when you hit dreads, but most ICC can never field dreads due to other imbalanced. It's quite a pain, and no one cares enough to fix it. It's why you will find virtually no ICC players even when there are 5+ players on the other factions. I love ICC, but I won't play it anymore because of the exact situation you're in.
I moved to UGTO, and was amazed at the difference.
And yes, I will get flamed by a few people for my post, but most people know it's true, as you yourself have just found out.
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Because leaving icc -luth and going to thefaction that is the most overpwerd and unblanced helps dosent it the problem is that people get sick of being killed by ugto ships that are far to pwefull or immencly hard tokill they think stuff it and join ugto then conplain theres no one to shoot
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2011-09-29 06:23
then there are those of us ICC that never recover form the shock as you have seen.
Sadly my RL situation prevents me from taking a student at the moment. Just know its not as bad as most people make it out to be. We icc cannot just spam space bar or V and win. we have to actualy think about what were doing. If you want, you can join FTL. We have a nearly a whole book on how to fight as iCC. Sadly, its a bit unorginized at the moment.. but at least you would have access to the info. Also i would be able to commune the more finite points of ICC ships to you in fleet forum.
Your choice.
[ This Message was edited by: *XO*Defiance{CM7} on 2011-09-29 06:25 ]
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*FTL*Soulless
Marshal
Joined: June 25, 2010
Posts: 787
From: Dres-Kona
| Posted: 2011-09-29 06:40
There isn't much you can do. Best defence against luth is to have a fully charged JD, and to be flying FASTER than they are bacause at ~3/4 the luths top speed they begin to lose energy while cloaked. if you do that you will surive a lot longer
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Whiterin
Fleet Admiral
Joined: November 15, 2007
Posts: 146
| Posted: 2011-09-29 08:27
Quote:
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On 2011-09-29 06:07, RogueAvenger10 wrote:
Quote:
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On 2011-09-29 05:39, Whiterin wrote:
Some people will pile on excuses for this, but the simple fact is ICC is far unbalanced compared to Kluth. The Claw (a Kluth dessy, most likely the type that attacked you) has FAR more firepower then ICC cruisers. A Claw vs ICC cruiser will always go to the Claw. From what I have seen, it gets a little better when you hit dreads, but most ICC can never field dreads due to other imbalanced. It's quite a pain, and no one cares enough to fix it. It's why you will find virtually no ICC players even when there are 5+ players on the other factions. I love ICC, but I won't play it anymore because of the exact situation you're in.
I moved to UGTO, and was amazed at the difference.
And yes, I will get flamed by a few people for my post, but most people know it's true, as you yourself have just found out.
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Because leaving icc -luth and going to thefaction that is the most overpwerd and unblanced helps dosent it the problem is that people get sick of being killed by ugto ships that are far to pwefull or immencly hard tokill they think stuff it and join ugto then conplain theres no one to shoot
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Actually, when I was ICC, UGTO wasn't my big issue. Sure they took a long time to damage, but as ICC... everuthing does. It was more-so the Kluth that gave me problems as ICC.
I left ICC because:
-Takes forever to kill things. Even killing transports is a time vampire on ICC.
-Not many people are usually on ICC, so it makes it kinda hard to play in a group.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2011-09-29 10:48
The main issue with faction balance is Kluth have a definite advantage inside 300 GU since their beams have no falloff, UGTO have a definite advantage inside 400-500 GU since that's when falloff starts really showing, and ICC have an advantage at 600+ GU because luth cannons can't reach that far and UGTO damage starts to really suffer from falloff. However, at 600 GU the only thing you'll be reliably hitting are Dreadnoughts and Stations, most Cruisers will be able to dodge just about everything you shoot at them, to say nothing of anything smaller. For small ship combat (Cruisers and below) ICC ships are forced to close into the opponent's optimal range to make the best use of their limited ammo, thus losing whatever advantage they had.
The only saving grace is most UGTO players don't bother with smaller ships once they can use Dreadnoughts, and many who do don't know how to properly use them. Though with luth it doesn't matter much because cloak lets them engage on their terms, and the increasing number of griefers who like to camp at a SY planet then decloak to kill people who have just logged in and are still loading.
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Borgie
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: August 15, 2005
Posts: 2256
From: close by
| Posted: 2011-09-29 12:55
Quote:
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On 2011-09-29 10:48, Talien wrote:
Though with luth it doesn't matter much because cloak lets them engage on their terms, and the increasing number of griefers who like to camp at a SY planet then decloak to kill people who have just logged in and are still loading.
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best kills ever.
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[ML]RogueAvengerTTV
Marshal
Joined: September 11, 2010
Posts: 300
From: England
| Posted: 2011-09-29 15:03
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Actually, when I was ICC, UGTO wasn't my big issue. Sure they took a long time to damage, but as ICC... everuthing does. It was more-so the Kluth that gave me problems as ICC.
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luth are ment to cloak get close uncloak and attack thats the idea so if u take away the cloak why not takle away luth ?
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2011-09-29 15:04
no one is saying that...
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Defiance and Opposition, a tribute to teamwork. I will remember always
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[ML]RogueAvengerTTV
Marshal
Joined: September 11, 2010
Posts: 300
From: England
| Posted: 2011-09-29 15:08
Quote:
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On 2011-09-29 15:04, *XO*Defiance{CM7} wrote:
no one is saying that...
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Quote:
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allows us to decloak luth at a range of 500 or 700 GU.
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ok then this gets applyed and the siphon and most luth ships are renderded useless the reason most of the icc ships are killed by luth players is because not one but 2- of us in dreads e.g. the 2 siphons and one madi the day before last all uncloak t the same time and attack one target....
teamwork! FTW
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2011-09-29 15:27
calm the hell down.
Its just a phase. All ICC go through it. Let it pass. Help him out. Dont be duches.
You know damn well decloak within x range will never happen, dont be so shallow.
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Defiance and Opposition, a tribute to teamwork. I will remember always
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