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Too many big ships aka DreadStation Space |
Great Budda
Fleet Admiral
Pitch Black
Joined: January 01, 2008
Posts: 157
From: Omaha, NE
|  Posted: 2010-02-08 03:42
In light of a topic brought up in the Dev Meeting thread between Starcommander and myself I would like to get others opinion on the topic.
Cliffs:
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On 2010-02-07 21:45, Fast Starcommander*CO* wrote:
number 6 bullet points 1 and 2.
Not a good idea unless every faction has a tarren planet (or 3) to work with. Also making ships take the res from the planet to spawn the ship is gonna make some people really POed. When they mined all the res to spawn a ship and some noob spawns a new one thus taking 2hrs of work away.
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Unto which my reply-
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On 2010-02-07 22:07, FTL great budda wrote:
I kind of see this in a different light. In my humble unimportant opinion this is something that would be of greater value than ship balancing. Don't get me wrong I understand where you are coming from but picture this:
ICC is planning a raid on a key planet with UTGO opposition. With a limited resource availability ICC decides to deploy cruisers and less where UTGO (similar resource state) decides to deploy a Dread with the remaining being destroyers or less.
This mix would provide balance which could tip either way depending on fleet performance as a team and not just stations/dreads everywhere you look in the MV.
I really think that if implemented correctly this could really encourage tactical thinking in attack/defense group ship selection more than now which is the station/dread mentality.
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And in response:
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On 2010-02-07 22:27, Fast Starcommander*CO* wrote:
So punish those who can fly dreads? Thats more or less what this idea is sounding like. Just because the people that are subbed can fly dreads doesn't mean they should be punished for doing so. So if there are limited resources and we can't deploy dreads, then whats the point of having them in the first pace?
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So I am agreeing to disagree with Starcommander on this as I do not see this as punishment. I plan to be one of those aforementioned people who are subbed and will eventually have dreads available for me to use. I think having capital ships add grandeur to the game and in no way would I want to remove them. I believe that dreads and stations should be something special but they really are not seen that way. To be blunt they are too common… even in scenario. Cruisers and below I expect to see en mass because they are workhorse vessels, seeing 5 stations going against 3 stations and 2 dreads with some smaller support craft is silly. A station, 2 dreads, and the rest cruisers or lower I can see as a common. I know that there are people out there that look upon what I say as sacrilege but I believe that that if implemented correctly resource demand balanced with resource availability will really encourage tactical thinking in attack/defense group ship selection more than now. My thoughts are not intended to punish as you put it but to enhance teamwork and make capital ships something special again. I know that there are some that will agree with me and more will agree with you but I am doing everyone a disservice by not putting it out there.
/soapbox
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xTx
Chief Marshal
Joined: September 10, 2005
Posts: 101
From: Canada
| Posted: 2010-02-08 07:15
Capital ships are special, they are special to the people who worked hard to gain rank so they could fly them. The idea of making it difficult to spawn stations and dreads will not be good for Darkspace and could drive people away.
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-Shadowalker-™
Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: September 23, 2007
Posts: 709
From: Shadows
| Posted: 2010-02-08 07:25
Then instead of making it difficlt to spawn dreads, just make a diffrent incentive. I belive during 1.484 or 1.483 depending on wheter or not you accept that 1.484 actually existed, the incentive was too much press loss for dreads and station; so, they all used dessies and a few crusiers.
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Meoiswa
Admiral
Joined: September 21, 2005
Posts: 13
From: Venezuela
| Posted: 2010-02-08 10:54
On my opinion, being a relatively new player, and haven't piloted anything larger than a missile cruiser, i strongly aprove the idea of making dreads and stations more special, without making them a pain to obtain or use. I think dreads and stations are something meant to be deployed on very important momments, and not just to hotride around. The idea of battles being one station, one dread or two and rest lesser ships is quite logical, since building Dreads and Stations would take years, or perhaps decades to acomplish, an army cant be made of pure dreads. (wild ideas, but might enlighten the people that know what they are doing) Perhaps giving them a time limit, having the player need to use prestige or some other stat to have them active, or making them have flaws like having lesser accuracy (so they can hit larger ships, but cruisers and destroyers can actually inflict them damage, or get closer to them, without being instantaneusly turned to basic elements) might make players use them in special circumstances, but not all day long.
Ive also noticed that some players have several dreads and stations on hold, and they fight to the death against other players, then respawn on the "spare" dread/station and jump straight where the wounded enemies are, therefore killing them, and if lucky, the enemy wont do the same.
I strongly opose to ships taking resources from planet, unless you could store the resources you mine for personal use.
[ This Message was edited by: Meoiswa on 2010-02-08 10:56 ]
Thinking further ahead, this makes me remember that players that use stations or dreads are on a whole other level, and lesser players are unable to fight with them since the difference in strenghts is so large.
An UGTO assault Corvette can have a good fight versus a Destroyer, and perhaps a Cruiser, but when confronting a dread its silly, you die in one hit. This makes a very unfriendly enviroment for new players, and very hard to incorporate in the DarkSpace universe.
[ This Message was edited by: Meoiswa on 2010-02-08 11:00 ]
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Acetheanimal(Angel of Distruction)
Grand Admiral
Joined: March 22, 2008
Posts: 85
| Posted: 2010-02-08 11:02
ive been around for a while and i must say i dont like this idea do to the fact that some people such as myself have worked a long time to get were they are and to get the dreads they can fly. just because you dont like the fact that everyone else around you is flying something you cannot does not mean you can punish those that can. you see if you dont have dreads or station the game is not worth playing for people who have been playing for a while and you would have more people with the higher press leaveing rather then staying wich means the game would die off and that is not a good thing. the thing of it is is this and this may seem heartless but if you cant fly dreads then work like the rest of us have and still are and earn the ships and quit whining about it.
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Meoiswa
Admiral
Joined: September 21, 2005
Posts: 13
From: Venezuela
| Posted: 2010-02-08 11:12
The fact is not that I, or other players, cannot fly dreads, flying dreads is a privilege to the p2p, hardworking people.
The fact is that battles are not meant to be 3 dreads vs 3 dreads, or 2 stations + 2 dreads vs 3 stations, since its not the way they would happen.
Same reason why wars arent declared and nations droppin' nukes one after the other, they are insanelly expensive and take a long time to build, while its a lot cheaper to pay a thousand soldiers to kill themselves in war.
It is a suggestion, and im sure that changing it in a day won't please anyone, this is something that needs little tweakings until the right balance is figured out.
In battle, each ship has a purpose, thats why there are so many kinds. Dreads are meant to go in the all-out, final and critical battle, not for jumping beside the enemy planet and pwning the 4 AI engineers and 2 players extracting resources in the blink of an eye, when nobody else can do anything.
This is a game that has no levels, and isn't meant to magically make more powerfull the players that play longer, but has a ranking system, and rewards this players. A dread feels more like a max-level, broken-class character than a hard-worked character with its skills very well trained.
[ This Message was edited by: Meoiswa on 2010-02-08 11:15 ]
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2010-02-08 11:14
DreadStationSpace is what the game is now. The only way to change that would be to make smaller ships more powerful again.
Limiting the big ships in game is not the answer. Preventing people from flying the ship they want is not the answer.
Something should be done to limit the spawning of new ships over and over from shipyards though. But the problem is the current resource limits severely limit the ability to spawn. Even at a terran planet, you can only spawn 1 dread at a time, and 1 station would use up almost all the resources. The game would devolve into people bickering that they can't fly what they want, people complaining that others are stealing their resources, and others just sitting at the ship selection screen waiting.
You want my opinion on the subject? Remove the ability to spawn at any server gate except a faction's home server gate. A faction can spawn any ship at their home server gate, for no cost, but cannot spawn ships at the other server gates, including Rogen's Rift gate. You can fly through them from one server to another, but you can't spawn at them.
For shipyards, I'm thinking locking ships to shipyards is a better solution than making them cost resources. You would either have to log out in open space and keep your ship unlocked, or hope that blockaded shipyard you're locked at is destroyed or captured, thereby unlocking your ships. OR you can always spawn at your home gate if your shipyard is blockaded. The home gate should always remain an option, so that you never have a ship completely unspawnable.
EDIT: Oh wormhole range should be increased dramatically too, at least double the range. It would make them actually useful for moving fleets around again, and would complement the increased need of spawning at the home gate.
[ This Message was edited by: MrSparkle on 2010-02-08 11:15 ]
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Meoiswa
Admiral
Joined: September 21, 2005
Posts: 13
From: Venezuela
| Posted: 2010-02-08 11:20
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On 2010-02-08 11:14, MrSparkle wrote:
DreadStationSpace is what the game is now. The only way to change that would be to make smaller ships more powerful again.
Limiting the big ships in game is not the answer. Preventing people from flying the ship they want is not the answer
[ This Message was edited by: MrSparkle on 2010-02-08 11:15 ]
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I agree, making smaller ships have a more important role would be great. How about (reffer to FreeSpace) corvettes and other smaller ships having gear designed to disable or destroy Cruisers or Dreads?
Just like theres a Cruiser that is meant only to disable the jump drives, there should be corvettes or frigates meant for protecting the fleet from that darned Dread in the enemy lines. Something like missiles that disable weaponry, anti-capital ship bombs, or subsystem-targeting gear?
Something that doesnt harass the dreads or make them useless, but doesn't give them unfair advantage against a well-organized enemy fleet of smaller ships
[ This Message was edited by: Meoiswa on 2010-02-08 11:21 ]
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2010-02-08 12:42
ok lets get this straight.
Now ,see it in this way.. I log in a server and I see my mates are outnumbered by 3 ugto stations and 2 BD.Since I would like to fly scale/scarab but knowing they wont do any good against those stations i pull my krill. So next ugto sees we have a fleet of krills/dreads he pulls another station . It is where we are getting into a game of dreads and stations.Also this works viceversa , if we outnumber the enemy , they will do the same thing. This game is based on having the best ship over your enemy to overcome their power. In a such low player base MMO would suffer this issue normaly. So we need new bloods. If there is 5 cruisers lurking around , be sure i will fly one with them. But in the game finding -3-4 cruisers flying together is almost imposible.
Also , enhacement system avoids us to use different ships. Somehow everyone looking for the best enhancement on the game. Even lower ranked players keeps the good enhancements for next rank/dread ships. I say if we could remove and use the enhancements on different ships , most of vets would fly cruisers time to time.
[ This Message was edited by: Pakhos on 2010-02-08 12:44 ]
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The Fridge
Chief Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: December 13, 2008
Posts: 559
From: In Your Fridge, Eating your Foods.
| Posted: 2010-02-08 13:31
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On 2010-02-08 12:42, Pakhos wrote:
But in the game finding -3-4 cruisers flying together is almost imposible.
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Come ICC, we've been doing a bit of this recently =)
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Great Budda
Fleet Admiral
Pitch Black
Joined: January 01, 2008
Posts: 157
From: Omaha, NE
| Posted: 2010-02-08 15:40
Again I am simply voicing my opinion.
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2010-02-08 15:43
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On 2010-02-08 13:31, The Fridge wrote:
Come ICC, we've been doing a bit of this recently =)
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Yes, Icc does that..
Should we do a cruiser party?
What about ugto?
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Sens [R33]
Admiral
Joined: September 27, 2008
Posts: 1020
From: Edge of th...
| Posted: 2010-02-08 16:08
The idea is to increase the importance of planets as mining outposts, instead of the countless depot and defense base templates we see currently. More mining = less defense. In turn, this results in a more dynamic MV with planets changing hands more often and more easily. That is not to say however, there won't be any pure defense planets.
As for the resource cost, we haven't released the full details as of yet; but the idea is to promote teamwork not only in combat, but logistics as well. i.e. do we really need 6 EADs or should we settle for one EAD and a support fleet? Ultimately, you will be able to spawn whatever at your leisure, it will just take longer to get to the front line. Remember all those "useless" home systems? Not any more.
Please keep in mind that what we say isn't always face value. There will always be changes necessary to facilitate new features or alterations to the current system. You may find many flaws of the top of your head, but rest assured we are also aware. So don't jump to conclusions but feel free to add constructive criticism.
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Rocki
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 13, 2002
Posts: 1029
| Posted: 2010-02-08 16:15
You guys wouldn't like it back in 1.480 then. Dreads were the only good ships UGTO had.
Personally, I enjoy flying a station most of all. It actually makes you think about strategy rather than combat maneuvers... can my JD recharge before they pop me? Will I make it out of the dictor in time? Are they setting me up? etc...
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2010-02-08 16:37
Probably we are setting you up 
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