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Rare Enhancements |
Forger of Destiny
Chief Marshal
We Kick Arse
Joined: October 10, 2009
Posts: 826
|  Posted: 2012-09-19 22:42
DR wasnt strictly removed from the game, just that the 2 rare enhs (benchford and zlarrs) had their DR characteristic reduced to 0 and defence increased accordingly.
if you're lucky, the devs forgot to check the rogen's armor overhaul enh.
you should probably have 48 hours after this message is posted to use and/or sell that enh while it still has its DR.
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2012-09-20 09:10
I'm pretty sure I removed DR completely from the game code, but since I don't have it in front of me right now I can't be 100% sure (I can't remember if I ever did commit that change or not). Wherever there was DR I added in an equal amount of Defense to the enhancement.
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Chewy Squirrel
Chief Marshal
Joined: January 27, 2003
Posts: 304
From: NYC
| Posted: 2012-09-21 10:51
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On 2012-09-20 09:10, Fattierob wrote:
I'm pretty sure I removed DR completely from the game code, but since I don't have it in front of me right now I can't be 100% sure (I can't remember if I ever did commit that change or not). Wherever there was DR I added in an equal amount of Defense to the enhancement.
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Which doesn't nearly make up for the lost DR and makes Rogen's Armor Overhaul a really crappy Advanced Defence Upgrade
[ This Message was edited by: Chewy Squirrel on 2012-09-21 10:51 ]
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Hyperforce
Grand Admiral
K'Luth Revolution
Joined: January 25, 2009
Posts: 43
From: Perth, WA
| Posted: 2012-09-21 11:33
[ This Message was edited by: Hyperforce on 2012-09-21 11:34 ]
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2012-09-21 15:07
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On 2012-09-21 10:51, Chewy Squirrel wrote:
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On 2012-09-20 09:10, Fattierob wrote:
I'm pretty sure I removed DR completely from the game code, but since I don't have it in front of me right now I can't be 100% sure (I can't remember if I ever did commit that change or not). Wherever there was DR I added in an equal amount of Defense to the enhancement.
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Which doesn't nearly make up for the lost DR and makes Rogen's Armor Overhaul a really crappy Advanced Defence Upgrade
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Same with Zlaar's, though for Rogen's it's even worse since there's only 1 or 2 ways of getting it.
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2012-09-25 21:26
It would have to be a lot of defense to make that enhancement -with its negative effects hitting a small ship where it really hurts - worth using. As I said before, the DR was the only thing it was good for....
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Pantheon
Marshal
Palestar
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1789
| Posted: 2012-09-26 06:59
Adding the same defence % as damage reduction is the same thing. Damage reduction was causing people to gain less prestige though, so I really don't get what people are complaining about.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2012-09-26 10:51
I think what bothers people is that DR applies to HP gained through AHR, DC, shield regen, and repair drones, while defense only adds to your max HP. It doesn't take long before that extra 3% or whatever is gone and then it's like it's not even there, but with DR you get the full benefit whenever you get hit with any kind of damage no matter how low your HP is.
Of course if pres loss is a big concern it does bring up a question, why do armor and shields have resistances? That reduces gain as well and makes it take even longer to get to hull where the real pres is.
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Forger of Destiny
Chief Marshal
We Kick Arse
Joined: October 10, 2009
Posts: 826
| Posted: 2012-09-26 11:27
Quote:
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On 2012-09-26 06:59, Pantheon wrote:
Adding the same defence % as damage reduction is the same thing. Damage reduction was causing people to gain less prestige though, so I really don't get what people are complaining about.
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Quote:
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On 2012-09-26 06:59, Pantheon wrote:
Damage reduction was causing people to gain less prestige
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thats half of the reason why these people are concerned.
the other half is that damage reduction:
-increases survivability (less damage taken = more time alive)
-increases effective worth of armor vis-a-vis damage (100000 points of damage is beaten by only 98000 points of armor)
-provides damage reduction for hull (theoretical, though i see no reason not to believe so, as it isnt called Armor/shield damage reduction)
-increases effective regeneration of armor/shields/hull (2% damage reduced is 2% regeneration gained)
defense improves the value of your own ship, whereas DR directly devalues the enemy's ship.
add to that :
high defense means more time needed for full repairs, DR circumvents that by devaluing damage itself, instead buffing up maximum defensive strength. plus, the extra strength makes ships slow. DR doesnt (its the difference between drinking 10 bottles of beer and drinking 1 bottle of quality beer - you are awake long enough to read and remember the bar's name)
defense recharge enhancements are nearly at par with damage reduction, except that D-charge only increases the net regeneration of armor/shields, whereas DR provides both effective defense strength boost and D-charge boost (each point of armor and regenerated armor is worth more than 1 point of damage)
this enhancement characteristic takes on both defenseUp and D-chargeUp and beats them in their own specialities (and extra useful because of hull protection). only reason it doesnt is because most players used only upto 4% DR on their ships (benchfords + zlarrs).
but eh, it really was broken. good riddance DR, dont come back again.
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Talien:- Of course if pres loss is a big concern it does bring up a question, why do armor and shields have resistances? That reduces gain as well and makes it take even longer to get to hull where the real pres is.
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there is this problem that damage reduction reduces incoming damage first, before it can hit the ship, and then lets it hit the ship. it resulted in the ship receiving less damage, the attacker inflicting less damage, and therefore less shipDamage points for the attacker (aka less pres). for the same amount of damage, the attacker has to fire more, spend more energy, spend time etc.
defense regeneration increases regen, so the attacker has to chew through more defense-over-time but gets payment for each point of armor damaged.
defenseUp either-
-directly increases strength of defense systems (armors/shields) so that they have more starting strength. attacker has to chew through lot of defenses but gets more points for more armor.
-or changes resistances of armor/shields so that attacker has to go through effectively more defense. fair payment? the logic is questionable but apparently the damage is done first, attacker gets payout first, and then damage to armor/shields is reduced. (honestly i dont know how can this system work...)
[ This Message was edited by: Mike Paradox on 2012-09-26 11:46 ]
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2012-09-26 14:26
I know how DR works, and like you pointed out most ships can only get up to 4%, so why is it such an issue? The only way to get more than that was either by adding Rogen's along with those two on a Destroyer, or flying a Scout/Engineer/Transport and using the Magnetron1/2/3 enh.
Trading a speed/turn penalty for extra defense ontop of what you get by having the extra defense itself is a bad deal even with no dura. Zlaar's and Rogen's are effectively junk now, especially considering that they're limited to what ships they can be used on. The only one that's still worth anything is Benchford but that was previously balanced by it being an extremely rare drop from certain elites, at least until it was made buyable.
Of course, now we have an aura that reduces damage output by 8% for every enemy ship in range. If DR is such a balance nightmare how does that one make any sense? That's the same as 8% DR for anyone that's attacked by enemies within the aura.
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