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beam arrays too powerful against small ships |
Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
|  Posted: 2012-03-18 22:35
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On 2012-03-18 22:27, Talien wrote:
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On 2012-03-18 21:56, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
Meh. Why bother with enh on a fragile ship.
They're already fast, relative stealthy, and pretty hard to hit.
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Meh. Why bother with enh on a gigantic ship?
They're already tough, have lots of firepower, and don't need to worry about stealth.
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You got me there. 
But seriously, scouts are primarily used for recon/tag operations. While medium/large combat ships are the mainstay of the fleet and combat (main purpose of the game). Ppl are likely to equip their combat ships with enh for an edge over each other.
Not to say that putting enh on a scout is wrong. But with the potential to be one shotted by a dread up close, you really shouldn't complain abt the enh loss when that happens. You have been warned after all.
TL;DR?
Coast Guard cutter fires all its guns at USS Iowa. Ding ding, dented.
USS Iowa fires all its guns at Coast Guard cutter. Good night! Sweet dreams!
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2012-03-18 22:46
There's no easy way to solve the problem, if you increase the HP, you start wrecking all sorts of balance at the low end (fights that no-one can win), and if you start bringing the classes closer together, the progression system just doesn't make sense.
There's no easy solution, and scouts have always been one-shotted - across the entire 10 years.
There's always been talk about beam accuracy, but such a system would be very complicated to impliment, and would involve us adding an entire new damage type just so we could check for all beam damage and then do some roll-based math against the class level. All in all, it's a lot of work, and could introduce gigantic changes to all fields of play, not just to scouts.
It's not something we're actively looking at, but it's been in the back of minds for a while.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2012-03-19 00:33
IMO, leave it as it is.
A 1.5km long ship that fires all it's weap at a 70m long ship should mean instant immolation.
Attempting to beacon a dread should be an exciting little adventure for the scout pilot. If there's no pucker factor, then it wouldn't be fun at all.
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Fatal Afro Man *NCO*
Marshal
Fatal Squadron
Joined: September 09, 2006
Posts: 201
| Posted: 2012-03-19 00:49
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On 2012-03-19 00:33, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
IMO, leave it as it is.
A 1.5km long ship that fires all it's weap at a 70m long ship should mean instant immolation.
Attempting to beacon a dread should be an exciting little adventure for the scout pilot. If there's no pucker factor, then it wouldn't be fun at all.
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Best thing said all thread.
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Fluttershy
Fleet Admiral
Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy
| Posted: 2012-03-19 01:11
Say, you guys added a convergence thing to beams recently, right?
What if the initial beam points were scattered around and took a moment to converge and lock in?
On anything larger than a frigate, it wouldn't matter much, but scouts wouldn't take the full power of that alpha until the beams converged. PD should be excluded from this effect for obvious reasons.
Flying recon is very unrewarding imo, and while I know I can fly cruisers and some dreads, I'd much prefer some sort of support role since the team seems to appreciate it, but the only ship with beacons is a motorboat in a sea of battleships.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2012-03-19 02:27
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On 2012-03-18 22:46, BackSlash (R33) wrote:
There's no easy way to solve the problem, if you increase the HP, you start wrecking all sorts of balance at the low end (fights that no-one can win), and if you start bringing the classes closer together, the progression system just doesn't make sense.
There's no easy solution, and scouts have always been one-shotted - across the entire 10 years.
There's always been talk about beam accuracy, but such a system would be very complicated to impliment, and would involve us adding an entire new damage type just so we could check for all beam damage and then do some roll-based math against the class level. All in all, it's a lot of work, and could introduce gigantic changes to all fields of play, not just to scouts.
It's not something we're actively looking at, but it's been in the back of minds for a while.
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All beams aside from ELF are energy only and torps and cores are energy/something else mix now, right? Would it be possible to tack energy damage resistance onto Scout hulls? Wouldn't really do much as far as balance since they'd still die in one beam alpha if they don't jump, but it'd probably be enough to compensate for all the mid jump deaths.
Some sort of roll based accuracy modifier for beams would be ideal, but wouldn't that also add extra server load?
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2012-03-19 02:53
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On 2012-03-19 01:11, Fluttershy wrote:
Say, you guys added a convergence thing to beams recently, right?
What if the initial beam points were scattered around and took a moment to converge and lock in?
On anything larger than a frigate, it wouldn't matter much, but scouts wouldn't take the full power of that alpha until the beams converged. PD should be excluded from this effect for obvious reasons.
Flying recon is very unrewarding imo, and while I know I can fly cruisers and some dreads, I'd much prefer some sort of support role since the team seems to appreciate it, but the only ship with beacons is a motorboat in a sea of battleships.
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It would probably take more code and work (and bugs) to modify beams. A lot of ppl have requested a limit to the tracking rate of the beams to limit their ability to fire on fast moving targets. But as mentioned, it won't be easy to code. It's easy for us to ask for things. But we're not the one stuck with the dirty work. And if it bugs out, guess who's at the receiving end of the QQ stick again?
Worth it? IMO, not worth the bugs (from a player's perspective)... and not worth the added work and QQ/backlash (for the devs).
Besides... Star Trek phasers seem to track all ships with unerring accuracy. Why not DS's?
As for the unrewarding bit, it depends on what you consider rewarding. Pres for combat? Sure.
Personally, if I get to beacon an enemy ship and cause it to break off the attack or get zapped by my buddies... I find that very very satisfying.
Or if I dico the dude and he gets ganked by everyone else.... that puts a smile on my face too. 
OK, so I'm a bit of a sadist that way.... but gameplay is more than about pres right? Whatever happened to making your opponents suffer??! LOL
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Jim Starluck
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: October 22, 2001
Posts: 2232
From: Cincinnati, OH
| Posted: 2012-03-19 03:01
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On 2012-03-18 22:08, Fluttershy wrote:
Well, see, what Brutality is mentioning is precisely the scenario in which I was in.
I go around with ECCM trying to drain the K'luth ships as much as possible, while sticking them with beacons whenever possible.
I assume it was effective because they started complaining over /yell about the new cloak mechanics.
So, when beaconing targets, death is to be expected? |
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Sadly, yes. As one with a lot of experience piloting Scouts against K'luth in a support role, you tend to be both A: A high priority target for them to kill and B: really easy for them to kill, given how many beams they have. Sadly, there's not a lot that can be done to negate this.
My advice to you is to keep moving at high speed, and if you see something jump and start to decloak, turn away ASAP. Also, try and get in behind K'luth ships; they don't have much in the way of a rear armament. If they're busy attacking another target you can often get in close without drawing their attention to fire off a few beacons, but be wary of their target dying or jumping out, or anything else that might free up their attention to swat you.
It can be a very fun role, but yes, it does involve getting blown up a lot.
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Kaepora
Fleet Admiral
Joined: February 08, 2011
Posts: 77
| Posted: 2012-03-19 03:42
I always hated how scouts instapopped when kluth dreads exploded. When they're cloaked, you can't see hull, so you can't see when they're about to die :/ .
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Fluttershy
Fleet Admiral
Joined: September 24, 2011
Posts: 778
From: Fluttershy
| Posted: 2012-03-19 06:01
What would be the harm in dampening the scale? Beefing up and sizing up the lower class ships to be more capable of taking direct damage?
This is a tactical space game, and the genre just strikes me as one that should have rather extended battles and some room for error.
On top of that, a game shouldn't assume everyone has 10ms ping, and should be made to be workable at larger pings.
If significant actions can occur within a time frame that is too fast for 100-300ms latency connections to cope with, then there is a fundamental flaw in the design of the game.
instant kills and online gaming just seem like a really bad combo.
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Ravendark
Marshal
Sanity Assassins
Joined: July 01, 2010
Posts: 443
| Posted: 2012-03-19 06:15
oh come on, now this is a bit over the edge... like its a real painful problem to be killed in the scout? you get repped in few secs, your jd charges in few secs, you're back in combat zone under one minute ffs, besides, if you get killed in the scout by dread then somebody must hate you... i dont waste time hunting smaller ships while there are bigger threats around..
i really dont see why is this such a great problem. in fact i see this as a troll post... and i just couldnt remain silent anymore..
lol ok seriously...
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2012-03-19 06:16
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On 2012-03-19 06:01, Fluttershy wrote:
instant kills and online gaming just seem like a really bad combo.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RVEWRU0kwg
Boom headshot....
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
| Posted: 2012-03-19 07:00
Disruptor & Assault D doesn't have falloff and that's what kills your scout, Fluttershy. Besides, your scout has ECCM, which is why its death is highly expecting.
Using beacon is enough. You want your scout to drain Luth Dread energy. Too ambitious?
Tips: longwave ECCM and Maketron I, II, III
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2012-03-19 09:27
Quote:
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On 2012-03-18 22:35, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
TL;DR?
Coast Guard cutter fires all its guns at USS Iowa. Ding ding, dented.
USS Iowa fires all its guns at Coast Guard cutter. Good night! Sweet dreams!
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16-inch battleship guns attempt to sink motor torpedo boat. Can't depress far enough. Misses.
Motor torpedo boat fires torpedoes at gigantic battleship. Blow a hole in the side. Sinks.
Or:
Obsolete biplanes attack one of the largest battleships in history, battleship fatally crippled. Battleship subsequently sunk by supporting forces.
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Pantheon
Marshal
Palestar
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1789
| Posted: 2012-03-19 10:08
Quote:
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On 2012-03-19 09:27, Gejaheline wrote:
Quote:
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On 2012-03-18 22:35, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
TL;DR?
Coast Guard cutter fires all its guns at USS Iowa. Ding ding, dented.
USS Iowa fires all its guns at Coast Guard cutter. Good night! Sweet dreams!
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16-inch battleship guns attempt to sink motor torpedo boat. Can't depress far enough. Misses.
Motor torpedo boat fires torpedoes at gigantic battleship. Blow a hole in the side. Sinks.
Or:
Obsolete biplanes attack one of the largest battleships in history, battleship fatally crippled. Battleship subsequently sunk by supporting forces.
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This isn't real life.
I believe mine and Jim's posts covers everything Flutter is complaining about in this post.
If you want a more definitive answer : we're not going to be changing anything relating to this anytime soon.
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