| Author |
"Realistic" order of battle |
Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
|  Posted: 2012-01-05 03:27
... and how to go abt implementing it.
Yep. Defiance's little "Bigger is not better thread" and his pro-Cruiser stance, though pompous and just a little irritating (*looks at Defiance & grin*), has somehow struck a chord with me.
Everyone flies dreads. Even the ones who want to fly a cruiser or dessie will end up flying a dread whenever they can because that's what's needed to counter the enemy.... who're also fielding all dreads.
It's sort of a vicious cycle. Either you get into a dread, or you're just playing second fiddle to the real macho manly chest thumping slugfest that's going on in space. Or you can still fly your little ship and die in the crossfire of the titans.
Of course, there are a few stubborn exceptions like Def and his own  ; maybe because their dreads suck or their brick-flying skills suck , but I digress....
OK, so it's plainly obvious that the DS universe is a bit skewed. It's like a corporation staffed by 1 janitor, 1 clerk, 2 general workers, a few accountants and shmucks, but a ton of Directors and VPs calling the shots. It's top heavy. It's unrealistic. It's ridiculous. But it's happening because there's nothing in place to control it. It's like a Counterstrike game where 8 out of 10 players are AWPs. The other 2 players are soon forced to play AWP, or be headshotted everywhere they go.
Shooter games circumvent this whoring phenomenon by implementing class limits. U can deploy perhaps 2 snipers out of 10 players on your team. The rest? Go grab an M4 or a pizza. Shoo!
But yeah. You GAs, Marshals, and CMs. I can see your lips curling into a pout right now. You fought long and hard for that rank and you're gonna scream for the rights to fly whatever you want, whenever you want, so there! *stamping of foot*
So a plain ol' enforced class limits system obviously won't go down well with some of you babies here.
Maybe we can discuss some stuff on how to make something like this work out, on a more palatable level for the ranked babies.
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Brutality
Marshal
Joined: May 25, 2009
Posts: 659
From: Alaska, USA
| Posted: 2012-01-05 12:55
Quote:
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On 2012-01-05 03:27, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
... and how to go abt implementing it.
Yep. Defiance's little "Bigger is not better thread" and his pro-Cruiser stance, though pompous and just a little irritating (*looks at Defiance & grin*), has somehow struck a chord with me.
Everyone flies dreads. Even the ones who want to fly a cruiser or dessie will end up flying a dread whenever they can because that's what's needed to counter the enemy.... who're also fielding all dreads.
It's sort of a vicious cycle. Either you get into a dread, or you're just playing second fiddle to the real macho manly chest thumping slugfest that's going on in space. Or you can still fly your little ship and die in the crossfire of the titans.
Of course, there are a few stubborn exceptions like Def and his own ; maybe because their dreads suck or their brick-flying skills suck , but I digress....
OK, so it's plainly obvious that the DS universe is a bit skewed. It's like a corporation staffed by 1 janitor, 1 clerk, 2 general workers, a few accountants and shmucks, but a ton of Directors and VPs calling the shots. It's top heavy. It's unrealistic. It's ridiculous. But it's happening because there's nothing in place to control it. It's like a Counterstrike game where 8 out of 10 players are AWPs. The other 2 players are soon forced to play AWP, or be headshotted everywhere they go.
Shooter games circumvent this whoring phenomenon by implementing class limits. U can deploy perhaps 2 snipers out of 10 players on your team. The rest? Go grab an M4 or a pizza. Shoo!
But yeah. You GAs, Marshals, and CMs. I can see your lips curling into a pout right now. You fought long and hard for that rank and you're gonna scream for the rights to fly whatever you want, whenever you want, so there! *stamping of foot*
So a plain ol' enforced class limits system obviously won't go down well with some of you babies here.
Maybe we can discuss some stuff on how to make something like this work out, on a more palatable level for the ranked babies.
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+1 this would be really cool to see implemented, but my main concern about it is how to determine who gets to fly what. There will be fights to have the dreads and stats i'm sure if something like this went down. I also wouldn't want some VA taking a critical dread spot and flying an MD vs luth, stuff like that would hurt your team help.  other than that I think its a good concept. though I'm sure the dev's are being on other things atm.
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2012-01-05 17:23
WARNING EVE REF AHEAD.
yea i know eeewww.
On eve, larger ships have a hard time dealing with smaller ships due to "tracking" of their huge turrents. (really just a low probability to hit dice roll)
It works though. On eve you absolutly NEED every class of ship on the field to affectivly win a battle. Small ships play a HUGE role in fleet warfare.
Some small ships have anti capital ship weapons.
Capital ships cannot engage small ships very well.
So other small ships are deployed with anti small ship weapons.
Also small ships are in charge of EW, jump inhibiting, and healing. (we nearly have that now).
im just throwing food for thought out there. I dont really know how to make the pieces fit. I dont want DS as a diceroll game at all... yet... diceroll works.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2012-01-05 19:26
Yeah we mostly have all those things now, dicerolls aside. We have supply ships, Interdictors, EW Scouts, and small ships are much more effective for killing other small ships because the guns on larger ships fire slower. It's not unheard of for a Scout or Frigate to be able to thread it's way between individual cannon shots in a volley from a Cruiser or Dreadnought.
As far as limitations, maybe something simple like a point based system where each player active in the MV contributes 1 point to their faction and each ship size costs an increasing amount of points to spawn, with maybe half a point contributed per SY (not counting Barrens) to make them more worthwhile.
Example:
6 points to spawn a Station, 4 for a Dreadnought, 2 for a Cruiser (3 for Interdictors), 1 for a Destroyer with Scouts, Frigates, and noncombat ships using nothing. If someone dies or docks the points used for their ship are recycled after a 30 second delay to allow them to get another ship without worrying about someone else using the points right away.
But honestly, all we really need are one or two smaller ships on each faction that are only good for attacking larger ships but die easily if engaged by anything close to it's own size. Sorta like how Missile/Harrier Frigates were before the T1 missiles got pounded into the ground by the nerf bat.
[ This Message was edited by: Talien on 2012-01-05 19:42 ]
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2012-01-05 20:23
Thanks all for participating.
So far Ent has brought up one good point: Freedom of Choice.
In short, players don't want to, and shouldn't be forced to fly what they don't want. Even if it skews game balance or goes beyond logic. I know it seems silly. After all, shooter games have class limits to ensure a balanced team mix per side.
So for the sake or argument, let's just go along with it.
We can't force ranked and/or qualified players to fly cruisers or dessies if they wanna pull dreads. Fine.
Let's go with what Defiance said (Talien too, on his last paragraph). We'll need small ships with attractive anti-capship weapons.
Right now, weaps are levelled according to ship classes. How about if we make specific weapons for frigates and dessies that are good for use against dreads and stations?
Talien's example of the old Missile Frigs was good. They were small, fast, nearly undetectable, and they launched missiles that were deadly against the heavies. But they had their weaknesses too. They were easily dispatched, especially in the current version. One alpha from any dread will vaporize a frig where it stands.
So one possible way to encourage ppl to get into small ships is to refit them with medium or long range powerful anti capship weaps. Those weaps shd not be all powerful like QSTs or Harpex'es. But strong enough to make those nimble little ships a threat.
Since the capships will not be able to chase down the little runts, the enemy will have to field their own little ships with similar capabilities.
Eg. Bring back that version of the MF with the odd firing arc.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2012-01-05 20:24 ]
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2012-01-05 20:49
indeed.
the capital ships inability to engage the capital ship killer would force other small ships on the field to hunt it.
Then small ships could be deployed to defend those capital ship killers from the hunters.
(this, as well as most of these ideas work best with a larger playerbase.)
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2012-01-05 23:21
PD efficiency can also be reduced across the board so the game becomes less of a slugfest.
The problem is that small ships do not carry enough weapons to make them a threat against larger ships. Take for example again the old MF. It carried 4 missiles. An average dread would have 5 beams, so that means the small ship is effectively useless unless they're fielded in 3's. I don't mean tt 1 MF shd be able to take out a dread, but at least it's missiles shd be able to hit the target more often.
Either reduce PD efficiency or....
How abt changing the way beams work? If u set a beam for PD, it shd not be able to be fired manually. i.e.; it's unlinked from alpha or manual fire completely. This way, a pilot has to judiciously chain some of his beams to PD and leave some for close combat, depending on the situation.
This gives smaller missile equipped ship a better chance. This also makes missile cruisers and dreads more deadly. They're already vulnerable to other dreads to begin with.
Just more ideas.
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2012-01-05 23:26
am i the only one that turns on pd only right before missiles hit? Then turn it back off?
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2012-01-06 00:08
Quote:
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On 2012-01-05 23:26, Defiance{CM7} wrote:
am i the only one that turns on pd only right before missiles hit? Then turn it back off?
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Besides your obvious awesomeness Chuck Norris, i'd say it depends on workload.
U could be engaging enemies at close range and not be looking out for missiles. UGTO is particularly guilty of this. Kluth need not bother abt PD as they can cloak, but in knife fights they can also be hit by missiles they didn't notice.
Besides, if I fired Shrouds at you, you wouldn't see them till the very last moment anyway.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2012-01-06 00:13
Well if you remember before the missile nerf it took 4-5 MFs to even have a chance of taking out a BD or EAD, and they'd have plenty of time to get away but usually they were dumb and tried jumping the MFs instead of jumping away to safety, and unless there was a ridiculous number of MFs like 8 they'd have to leave to reload to even be able to take out one ship.
But missiles really aren't the way to go for a small ship with anti-capital weapons, they use way too much energy and the range is about half what it used to be. Cores wouldn't work either since they're basically just oversized cannons now. Torps.....eh, could work I suppose, the ICC Stealth Corvette is certainly effective enough in groups.
And yeah, it would make more sense to disable PD beams from offensive use entirely. it would also make sense to disable heavy beams from being used for PD, and actually now that I think about it, wasn't that done before? Anyone remember what happened with that?
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2012-01-06 00:52
Quote:
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On 2012-01-06 00:13, Talien wrote:
Well if you remember before the missile nerf it took 4-5 MFs to even have a chance of taking out a BD or EAD, and they'd have plenty of time to get away but usually they were dumb and tried jumping the MFs instead of jumping away to safety, and unless there was a ridiculous number of MFs like 8 they'd have to leave to reload to even be able to take out one ship.
But missiles really aren't the way to go for a small ship with anti-capital weapons, they use way too much energy and the range is about half what it used to be. Cores wouldn't work either since they're basically just oversized cannons now. Torps.....eh, could work I suppose, the ICC Stealth Corvette is certainly effective enough in groups.
And yeah, it would make more sense to disable PD beams from offensive use entirely. it would also make sense to disable heavy beams from being used for PD, and actually now that I think about it, wasn't that done before? Anyone remember what happened with that?
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The old MF only had that one advantage which made it deadly. The so-called odd firing angle. Other than that, the missiles were of the normal variety, so it still took a number of them to bring down a dread.
What I'm proposing is to outfit them w more powerful missiles (not OP, just more powerful) and reduce PD efficiency to the point where they have a very decent hit probability. Missiles won't be a threat to smaller ships as they can be dodged. Cruisers will have a better chance to dodge them. Dreads and stations will have to PD them or get a picket escort.
Add in the dedicated PD beam idea and it suddenly makes life a bit more complicated for a dread/station pilot.
Eg; Support Station, EAD, or Siphon pilot will have to divide his array of beams to deal with enemies close up and incoming missiles being lobbed at him by light ships.
BTW, I do remember tt the heavy beams were supposed to be excluded from PD. I don't remember if it's still on effect.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2012-01-06 14:01
Actually, the ballistic arc of the missiles did not prevent them from being PDed, it just made them look cool. You can see this with Fighters that fly over a large planet, you'll still PD them when they get in range even though they're way above you because vertical distance is not factored in. If anything the odd arc was more of a problem since it gave them an effective minimum range of about 600-700 GU, anything within that distance couldn't be hit because it took so long to complete the arc.
Reducing PD effectiveness doesn't seem like a good idea, just having dedicated PD beams unusable in combat should be enough.
[ This Message was edited by: Talien on 2012-01-06 14:03 ]
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CM7
Midshipman
Faster than Light
Joined: October 15, 2009
Posts: 1812
| Posted: 2012-01-06 14:02
it was recended because it hurt ugto more than anticipated. where icc has pulse tec and kluth have super vbutton, ugto was left naked
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2012-01-06 18:09
Quote:
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On 2012-01-06 14:01, Talien wrote:
Actually, the ballistic arc of the missiles did not prevent them from being PDed, it just made them look cool. You can see this with Fighters that fly over a large planet, you'll still PD them when they get in range even though they're way above you because vertical distance is not factored in. If anything the odd arc was more of a problem since it gave them an effective minimum range of about 600-700 GU, anything within that distance couldn't be hit because it took so long to complete the arc.
Reducing PD effectiveness doesn't seem like a good idea, just having dedicated PD beams unusable in combat should be enough.
[ This Message was edited by: Talien on 2012-01-06 14:03 ]
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Right. So those arcs didn't help a bit.
Anyway. So,
- outfitting the small ships w anti cap weaps (missiles)
- dedicated PD beams
2 points so far.
Objective is to make small ships enough of a threat (but not OP) to capships that other small ships have to be deployed to counter them. Ratio shd be something like; 2 dessies can badly hurt 1 dread in under 2 mins. Otherwise just deploying another dread will counter this already.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2012-01-06 22:29
You know.....what if PD was changed so it's not a setting you can switch on and off for each beam, and instead there were normal and PD versions of beams that you had to choose between at a planet? Yeah it'd require additional gadgets to be created, but it would really make ships like the Escort/Picket Destroyers useful instead of just novelties that are only used by people who can't use a Combat/Gunboat Destroyer yet.
Of course, you'd probably still see almost nobody using them because of the way stats are shared in groups instead of just pres gain/loss.
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