| Author |
Mines (Weapon) |
Demigan
Vice Admiral
Joined: September 12, 2011
Posts: 88
|  Posted: 2011-10-06 02:16
The amount of damage mines deal is pretty low right now, and the ships of ICC that can lay mines aren't strong enough to fly close in front of enemies and drop mines on top.
Having larger mine counts would be a good thing I think, only drawback would be the strain on the server. With larger mine counts, you can actually place a good field somewhere in advance, and deal good damage against enemies.
A mine's function should absolutely not be a killing weapon. It should be a deterrent or weakening weapon. If an enemy jumps in and flies through a good minefield, he should be weakened for the comming assault.
If an enemy is fleeing, he should be fearful of mines, they should pack enough punch to kill off an enemy that is close to death, if laid down properly.
What would be a harder task, is to mine a jump route. So a reward for successfully mining in someone's jump path would be great. Someone who is jumping and runs into mines, should get extra damage (50% extra?). There is a good reason for this: colliding with something while going faster then light causes massively more damage then colliding with something at, say, 1500 km/h.
I really like the idea of making mines only visible to ships outfitted with sensors, although I would also add ECCM to it, and give mines a standard sig of 0, which can be raised or lowered according the normal rules.
Yours sincerely,
Demigan.
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2011-10-06 11:41
ECCM would be too easy. Giving that ability to scanners would give that gadget a useful ability ingame. The one thing I would want to add to that is the ability to swap ECM/ECCM for scanners again, because too few ships come with a scanner now.
If mines weren't so easily PD'd I wouldn't care if they were visible or not. But I regularly see AI PD mines. Even though they aren't used by players anymore there's a certain elite that drops them, and I never see them do any damage. I even sent an AI directly into a pile that were dropped, and rather than take damage it PD'd them.
So there you go. They're not useful unless used unconventionally.
This may sound a bit more extreme, but what if they couldn't be PD'd? What if you had to target them manually like platforms? I don't mean give them armor or hull, just inability to be targeted by PD. It may be incompatible if they're considered a projectile like a missile or fighter, but it's a thought. I don't know what makes certain projectiles susceptible to PD and others not, like missile vs torpedo, so I don't know if it would be a simple change to mines or a complete overhaul that's required.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2011-10-06 12:15
Mines were nerfed because of QQ. Nuff said.
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Forger of Destiny
Chief Marshal
We Kick Arse
Joined: October 10, 2009
Posts: 826
| Posted: 2011-10-06 12:32
curious how 1914 landmines have been unchanged for 250 years. *winkwink*
what kind of static offense devices would be used by a) humans of the 23rd century
b) insectoid lobsters of the 23rd century
c) pirates of the 23rd century which have robot parrots on their shoulders and electronic eyepatches
imo the definition of mines needs to be changed a lot.
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-(kha-ti the silent watcher)-
Grand Admiral
Joined: September 12, 2011
Posts: 185
From: the land of silent watchers
| Posted: 2011-10-06 12:40
I've never used mines never saw the need to since this is space....there's lots of space in space..... you could just go around them and since you only got a limit to how many you got on you not hard to just pd them and besides since they got nerfed and i don't see any changes so far (actually hope to see some mines having a use would be nice) I'm not worried.
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2011-10-06 14:22
Mines don't really fit too well with the rest of DS.
Traditionally, sea mines are things you dump at sea in massive quantities near enemy ports or along routes you know enemy ships will travel along.
These mines would then sit around for days, weeks, months, years... waiting until an enemy ship happened to blunder into one, at which point the target would be critically damaged if not sunk. The other hundred mines would have to wait a bit longer to claim another kill.
This doesn't really match with DS mines. Real-world minefields are not laid five seconds before an enemy fleet arrives, in a tiny patch directly in front of them, in salvoes of five or six. No, they're laid by specialised ships as a static defence in their hundreds or thousands, forming massive fields of potential death.
A DS equivalent would be a gate or planet surrounded by a thousand-gu-deep ring of scattered mines, not packed right together, but dense enough that attacking ships would strike at least one mine before they reached the planet. And those mines would cripple or kill, rather than doing the relatively minor damage they inflict now per single mine.
And if we're talking space mines, they'd have engines in order to seek enemy ships or be armed with one-shot weapons.
Problem is, that would be horrible to implement in-game, so we're probably stuck with the mines we currently have.
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2011-10-06 20:10
There's nothing wrong with being stuck with the mines we have now, because they're pretty much the same mines we've had for 10 years. It just sucks that some ships either rely on mines as their only real role ingame, or else have a few that can be swapped for something better. The scarab I think will remain the notable exception where they're not useless, but again like I said, is a scarab more useful than the other Kluth cruisers, or is it just a different way of playing for when you get bored of traditional combat?
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Blackjack [DBL]
Grand Admiral
Faster than Light
Joined: February 25, 2011
Posts: 344
From: The land of venomous reptiles.
| Posted: 2011-10-06 21:02
Quote:
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On 2011-10-06 14:22, Gejaheline wrote:
And if we're talking space mines, they'd have engines in order to seek enemy ships or be armed with one-shot weapons.
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That reminds me of the mines in the Honor Harrington novels. The mines are a one shot, nuclear powered laser with a simple I.F.F. device. This laser is capable of punching through the sidewalls (the shields) of a superdreadnought, or totally destroying smaller ships with a lucky shot.
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Demigan
Vice Admiral
Joined: September 12, 2011
Posts: 88
| Posted: 2011-10-06 21:06
Quote:
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On 2011-10-06 14:22, Gejaheline wrote:
And if we're talking space mines, they'd have engines in order to seek enemy ships or be armed with one-shot weapons.
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Well, these mines can go off in two ways: by having something run into it and having it explode, or to have it react to an energy signature to explode. The latter seems bets in a 23rd era battle. A Thermal nuclear bomb is best exploded by a sequence, having it go off by something breaking the hull would give a lesser blast then an engineerd blast.
So I would say it reacts to a signature, but to prevent mines not going off because ships manage to avoid detection, they can still go off by collision forces.
Space is big, mines are relatively small. In a real space battle, mines would be used only in the atmosphere or in known jump points, otherwise there is a much too large area to mine. A station is like 2 miles long, and even if we orbited all current mines on planet earth, it would still have no trouble passing between them. Let alone if you have endless space around you.
These mines would need something extra, internal propulsion for instance, to be able to travel towards a target unnoticed and explode. This would explain why they are mines: internal propulsion can be done near invisible, probably has you going at slow speeds, so only ships that come close can be targets for these mines, but does solve the problem that you need to throw 20 million mines over an area just to hit one
In DS, protection has taken faster leaps then weapons, so mines are simply as powerful as some other weapons, but pushed into the role of deterrent.
Yours sincerely,
Demigan.
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2011-10-07 12:20
So homing mines? They can be thought to have propulsion systems. I really enjoyed them when they were ingame and would like to see them again, even if that's the only change to mines we see.
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Thrie
Fleet Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: October 28, 2002
Posts: 760
| Posted: 2011-10-07 14:02
I think making Mines, as previously mentioned, an AOE weapon would be the best approach in making mines somewhat useful again.
Mine layers would construct the first tier mine field (like engies constructing plats) that would have an AOE range of 100gu radius. Constructing mines would require resources in the ship's cargo hold.
Once the Tier 1 mine field has been constructed, the mine layer would have the option of upgrading (expanding) the mine field. Tier 2 mine field would take... say about 2-4 minutes to construct and 5k+ resources and will have a range of 200gu. Then there could be tier 3 that could take 8minutes to construct, etc...
Secondly, players would have the option of unloading resources onto the Mine field... Resources, in relative to a Mine field, would mean field density. The higher the density, the higher the damage.
Honestly, the current way mines are deployed was best used with ICC ships when their cruisers had a mine slot. We're supposed to be long range, so a mine slot from the old days fit the ICC description. I missed being able to drop a mine when I'm being pursued... it was like, depth charge... on steroids... in space!
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Demigan
Vice Admiral
Joined: September 12, 2011
Posts: 88
| Posted: 2011-10-08 09:55
[quote]
On 2011-10-07 14:02, Thrie wrote:
I think making Mines, as previously mentioned, an AOE weapon would be the best approach in making mines somewhat useful again.
Mine layers would construct the first tier mine field (like engies constructing plats) that would have an AOE range of 100gu radius. Constructing mines would require resources in the ship's cargo hold.
[/quote
Now there's a good idea. Perhaps instead of 'upgrading' a minefield, you should just be able to 'build' these fields in several sizes, each costing a certain amount of time and resources. Maybe create several 'markers' in the field, passing within a certain GU (20 Gu? 10?) of that marker will remove that part of the field, and the player who removes it will be damaged as he hit the minefield. This way, the minefield depletes as more players hit the field. Also, a lucky player might actually be able to fly through the field without being hit, or an ally could fly through it safely without having to fly all around it.
A minefield would become a large volume, harder to avoid. If damage is kept low, these fields would become hazards, but not incredibly lethal for lightly damaged ships. Better: smaller ships could pass them easier then bigger ships due to their smaller hitbox.
Maybe also add different minefields? From older tracking mines (more range for each marker) to slightly higher damage mines, or mines with a lower sig so they can be spotted later by ships with sensors (I agree, ECCM should not effect these mines), or mines that are always visible, but need more shots to PD, so you can place a visible deterrent for enemies.
Or the choice between a symetric minefield and an a-symetric minefield where the markers are placed haphazardly within the volume of the minefield. You could make mines so much more usefull, without them being overpowered.
I can actually see these mines becomming a standard near gate's, where scout ships are a commodity to clear them ahead of a strike force, but you could also choose to just take the light damage and just charge in with dreads. And a good extra defence around planets, and simultaneously, you have to be witty enough to place them in such a way that allies don't kill themselves whenever they try to enter the mined gate, or when fleeing to the depot of a friendly planet. You could cripple your own prestige enourmously when placing these things wrong. So you would need an option to clear friendly mines, or part of the markers in a minefield, yourself safely.
Yours sincerely,
Demigan.
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Red Shirt
Captain
Joined: January 04, 2012
Posts: 18
| Posted: 2012-01-14 02:42
Proximity-Fused mines (with wide area of effect, naturally)
Nanocloud/Acid mines (damage-over-time effect)
Mini-Laser mines (rather than exploding, each contains a small chemical laser that can fire three times before burning out)
Missile-Mines (one-shot missile, faction type, that fires when target gets within moderate range)
Wild-Weasel mines (automatically attrack all missles that come within range, causing them to hit the mines instead of their real target)
Limpet Leech Mines (stick to hull and drain power until removed by getting in range of a friendly Shipyard)
Limpet Nanobot Inhibitor (sticks to hull and prevents armor repair on ships until removed - good versus UGTO)
Limpet Shield Drainer (sticks to hull and prevents shield regen until removed, good versus ICC)
Limpet Beacon mines (like scout beacons, they stick to the hull and raise signature until removed, good versus K'luth)
Tachyon Mines (bleeds out fuel from Tachyon drives and/or preventing jumping for a certain amount of time)
The possibilities are vast...
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Boerenkool
Marshal
Joined: December 18, 2007
Posts: 218
| Posted: 2012-01-14 02:49
[ This Message was edited by: Boerenkool on 2012-01-14 06:04 ]
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Princess Celestia
Marshal
Joined: July 03, 2011
Posts: 165
From: The Crystal Empire.
| Posted: 2012-01-14 18:55
ive seen a discusssion like this befor oh wait its a rerun when will they come out with a new discussion instead of Rerun old ones?
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