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One armor plate per facing? |
BackSlash Marshal Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003 Posts: 11183 From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2011-02-09 10:45  
Bit a confusing comment there, Geja...
Repair rate does not increase the more damaged a ship is, or the more damaged systems it has.
A ship with 3 damaged armour plates repairs at the same rate that one does, however, the 3 damage plates will repair at the same time. So you will gain more HP per second, but you will still be repaired at the same rate as if you had 100 armour plates. [ This Message was edited by: BackSlash on 2011-02-09 10:47 ]
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Gejaheline Fleet Admiral Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005 Posts: 1127 From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2011-02-09 19:15  
Disclaimer: When I say "armour" here I refer to basically any source of ship integrity, including shields, particularly if they heal themselves.
Let one armour plate repair at 1HP/second. (Note: not actual in-game number.)
No damage: 0HP repaired per second.
One armour plate is damaged: 1 HP is repaired per second. Repair rate is 1HP/s.
Two plates are damaged: 1 HP is repaired/second per plate, so total repair rate is 2HP/s
Thus, as more components are damaged, the total rate that a ship is repaired increases.
A ship being shot at from one arc will repair 1HP per second. When the plate is breached and the plate beneath it begins taking damage, both plates will regenerate, so the total regeneration rate for that facing will be 2HP/s, which is double the rate.
Any given component will repair at a fixed rate regardless of damage to other components, yes, but overall it's far better to take damage to as many components as possible because that gets you the maximum possible regeneration rate.
Example: Your gun deals 2 HP of damage per second. You are shooting an enemy ship that heals at the above rate.
Hitting the first armour plate, every second it regenerates 1HP, which leaves one HP of damage that must be repaired in the next second, but since you're constantly piling on damage it can't repair as quickly as you're hurting it.
However, you then get to the second layer. What happens here is that the first armour plate regenerates 1HP every second still. This soaks up 1HP of damage, and the other 1HP falls through to the second armour layer.
Because this layer can also repair, it promptly repairs that 1HP of damage, leaving it at full hitpoints until you find a way to deal more damage.
Obviously this is an extreme case where the damage is barely enough to overcome regeneration to start with, but it demonstrates the point that a ship's resistance to damage by way of repairs or regeneration increases when more components take damage. This can pose a problem when, for example, ten reloads are being pointed at a target, since you have to multiply the number of reloads by the number of damaged components to get the effective repair rate.
Any kind of damage to self-repairing components benefits from this regeneration increase, which is why the best situation for a ship regen-wise is to be on the second layer of defence on every arc, but the relatively slow regeneration rate of unassisted armour/shields prevents this from becoming overly powerful. Adding reloads can result in situations where a ship cannot be damaged because its repair rate suddenly doubles when the first defensive layer is breached.
Obviously, this is primarily a concern when actually in-combat, where your raw HP regeneration rate is an important factor in reducing incoming damage. Out of combat, the deciding factor for repair time to 100% is your most damaged component.
Note that "HP gain rate" and "time for components to reach 100%" are two subtly different things: A ship with 100 armour plates at 0% will reach 100% at the same time as a ship with 1 armour plate at 0%, but the ship with 100 armour plates will repair 100 times more hit points in a given period of time.
In conclusion, I'd like to see some kind of mechanism where reloads only have a certain HP repair rate which is divided evenly amongst all damaged components.
Stay tuned; I might write yet another rambling, incomprehensible post at some point.
tl; dr: Damaging one armour plate/shield causes regeneration. Damaging two armour plates/shields causes double that regeneration. Stacking 10 reloads on two damaged armour plates is like stacking 20 reloads on a single damaged plate, which is a problem for people shooting at them.
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jamesbob Grand Admiral
Joined: August 22, 2009 Posts: 410
| Posted: 2011-02-09 19:39  
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On 2011-02-09 19:15, Gejaheline wrote:
Disclaimer: When I say "armour" here I refer to basically any source of ship integrity, including shields, particularly if they heal themselves.
Let one armour plate repair at 1HP/second. (Note: not actual in-game number.)
No damage: 0HP repaired per second.
One armour plate is damaged: 1 HP is repaired per second. Repair rate is 1HP/s.
Two plates are damaged: 1 HP is repaired/second per plate, so total repair rate is 2HP/s
Thus, as more components are damaged, the total rate that a ship is repaired increases.
A ship being shot at from one arc will repair 1HP per second. When the plate is breached and the plate beneath it begins taking damage, both plates will regenerate, so the total regeneration rate for that facing will be 2HP/s, which is double the rate.
Any given component will repair at a fixed rate regardless of damage to other components, yes, but overall it's far better to take damage to as many components as possible because that gets you the maximum possible regeneration rate.
Example: Your gun deals 2 HP of damage per second. You are shooting an enemy ship that heals at the above rate.
Hitting the first armour plate, every second it regenerates 1HP, which leaves one HP of damage that must be repaired in the next second, but since you're constantly piling on damage it can't repair as quickly as you're hurting it.
However, you then get to the second layer. What happens here is that the first armour plate regenerates 1HP every second still. This soaks up 1HP of damage, and the other 1HP falls through to the second armour layer.
Because this layer can also repair, it promptly repairs that 1HP of damage, leaving it at full hitpoints until you find a way to deal more damage.
Obviously this is an extreme case where the damage is barely enough to overcome regeneration to start with, but it demonstrates the point that a ship's resistance to damage by way of repairs or regeneration increases when more components take damage. This can pose a problem when, for example, ten reloads are being pointed at a target, since you have to multiply the number of reloads by the number of damaged components to get the effective repair rate.
Any kind of damage to self-repairing components benefits from this regeneration increase, which is why the best situation for a ship regen-wise is to be on the second layer of defence on every arc, but the relatively slow regeneration rate of unassisted armour/shields prevents this from becoming overly powerful. Adding reloads can result in situations where a ship cannot be damaged because its repair rate suddenly doubles when the first defensive layer is breached.
Obviously, this is primarily a concern when actually in-combat, where your raw HP regeneration rate is an important factor in reducing incoming damage. Out of combat, the deciding factor for repair time to 100% is your most damaged component.
Note that "HP gain rate" and "time for components to reach 100%" are two subtly different things: A ship with 100 armour plates at 0% will reach 100% at the same time as a ship with 1 armour plate at 0%, but the ship with 100 armour plates will repair 100 times more hit points in a given period of time.
In conclusion, I'd like to see some kind of mechanism where reloads only have a certain HP repair rate which is divided evenly amongst all damaged components.
Stay tuned; I might write yet another rambling, incomprehensible post at some point.
tl; dr: Damaging one armour plate/shield causes regeneration. Damaging two armour plates/shields causes double that regeneration. Stacking 10 reloads on two damaged armour plates is like stacking 20 reloads on a single damaged plate, which is a problem for people shooting at them.
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{disclaimer} if this post complcated things even more i do aplogises as such theses values are not real and never were i do not accept any respoliblity to the damage done to your mental wellbeing.
the values them self are off the top of my head and in no way reflect the values used in the games the calculation is my interpertation of what geja said as such it may be completely incorrect
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i believe what geja is saying here is that when you calculate the current repair system regen rates the figures go off the chart resulting with a in theory inmortal ship the more reloads the harder till you hit a bit where you can not damage armor due to insane regen rates (using gejas figures not real figures as i do not know them)
2 damaged plates one side 2/hpps (hit points per second)
times by 100 reload drones (lets just say they repair 10 hitpoints per second for the sake of augument)
you are in theroy gaining .... getting calculator.
100 times 10 times 2.
2000 hpps
yeah repair needs a major overhual .
now say the ship has advance defence power 8 of them
2000 increased by 46%.
40 percent would be
800 about then add in the 6 percent which would equal
860 then add that to 2000 and you got a problem theirs no way in the world you can possibly rip right through that.
answer
2860 hpps
i believe i know some people that have to give me a apolgise claiming that they could not use maths anywhere when i defended the maths teacher.
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doda *EP5 no longer exception...* Grand Admiral
Joined: December 11, 2005 Posts: 1012 From: happy land
| Posted: 2011-02-09 23:57  
If we add anti repair ships that might solve the sup stacking problem.
Ie some sort of beam which makes auto repair, depots, and sup drones damage the target rather than repair. Then that will make it a lot harder for people to tank all damage by repair stacking.
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Cory_O Grand Admiral
Joined: July 15, 2010 Posts: 104
| Posted: 2011-02-10 00:51  
or... we could simply not attack the enemy at their strongest point. That would be alot easier and save the devs some time. Next time you have someone completely outgunned and they are only alive because they are being repaired by a depot planet, perhaps, just maybe, you should consider attacking a different planet.
Think about it, if the depot planet is the only thing keeping that person alive, than they are effectively trapped in a ~800 gu diameter circle (counting the diameter of the planet). With the longest ranged weapons in the game that actually pose a threat (i.e. not missiles or fighters). They are now a circle of ~2000 gu. That is easily avoidable, just like people avoid interdictors, you can easily avoid this circle.
Or, you could go around to a side of the planet they are not on and bomb a couple generators. Then they no longer have the planet to heal them and they will be easy pickings.
This might all make to much sense and require some thought though, as opposed to simply pressing space bar as fast as you can.
In my opinion, with planetary defences being completely and totally useless and not even worth building now, depot planets are the only way a planet can really contribute to defending its self.
IF, however, you do nerf depot and repair rates, atleast use enough common sense to make it so that a station repairing itself at a depot planet is more effective than a station repairing itself along with another station repairing it (as a formula previously suggested would prevent). And/Or give planets their teeth back, I know the devs apparently don't want to bring back the old way (that worked btw), so instead give the defences built more range and more punch. As it stands now, there is not much incentive to build anything other than depot planets, sy planets, and barracks planets. This could be easily remedied by increasing plantary defence ranges to 1k gu (the same as the interdictor) and increasing their damage.
I think 1k gu is a good fair range for planets, it makes ships take damage for 500gu before they can capture the planet, and it still allows the planet to be bombed from a safe distance.
There are many potential solutions to the useslessness of planetary defences, I just think this method would be the easiest to program and implement as (to my knowledge) it would only require some number tweaking.
... Enough with the off topic comments from me, back to the op.
I think the two best solutions for preventing depot planet camping are:
A. Limit the number of depots that can be built on a planet, perhaps to 10 or 8.
B. Make planets repairing ships cost the planet resources. If it does already, than increase the amount it costs.
tl;dr. Make planetary defences usefull before you go making planets even less useful.
Edit: The reason I am talking about depot planets is because they are what this entire thread is really about. [ This Message was edited by: Cory_O on 2011-02-10 00:57 ]
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BackSlash Marshal Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003 Posts: 11183 From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2011-02-10 00:57  
This is already being tackled, as I stated on the first page.
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Lithium Chief Marshal
Joined: June 29, 2003 Posts: 109
| Posted: 2011-02-10 03:46  
Answer: Play UGTO
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Gejaheline Fleet Admiral Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005 Posts: 1127 From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2011-02-10 05:46  
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On 2011-02-10 00:51, Cory_O wrote:
Edit: The reason I am talking about depot planets is because they are what this entire thread is really about.
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I was under the impression that this thread was about how it's far too easy to stack lots and lots of reloads on a single target, particularly in the cases of depots and supply platforms, where you can build a lot of them, and in the case of stations, which have lots of things to repair, can bunch together, and have the terrible combination of lots of guns and lots of reloads.
As both Jack and I have said, reload-spam is being looked at.
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Kenny_Naboo Marshal Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010 Posts: 3823 From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2011-02-10 07:18  
Quote:
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On 2011-02-09 19:15, Gejaheline wrote:
Let one armour plate repair at 1HP/second. (Note: not actual in-game number.)
No damage: 0HP repaired per second.
One armour plate is damaged: 1 HP is repaired per second. Repair rate is 1HP/s.
Two plates are damaged: 1 HP is repaired/second per plate, so total repair rate is 2HP/s
Thus, as more components are damaged, the total rate that a ship is repaired increases.
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This just sounds wrong to me.
For a given supp ship or plat with one repair drone, it should be
1 armor plate damaged: 1 HP per second
2 armor plates damaged: Each plate 1/2 HP per sec
3 armor plates damaged: Each plate 1/3 HP per sec
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Reznor Marshal
Joined: March 29, 2010 Posts: 316
| Posted: 2011-02-10 14:07  
Quote:
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On 2011-02-09 19:15, Gejaheline wrote:
Disclaimer: When I say "armour" here I refer to basically any source of ship integrity, including shields, particularly if they heal themselves.
Let one armour plate repair at 1HP/second. (Note: not actual in-game number.)
No damage: 0HP repaired per second.
One armour plate is damaged: 1 HP is repaired per second. Repair rate is 1HP/s.
Two plates are damaged: 1 HP is repaired/second per plate, so total repair rate is 2HP/s
Thus, as more components are damaged, the total rate that a ship is repaired increases.
A ship being shot at from one arc will repair 1HP per second. When the plate is breached and the plate beneath it begins taking damage, both plates will regenerate, so the total regeneration rate for that facing will be 2HP/s, which is double the rate.
Any given component will repair at a fixed rate regardless of damage to other components, yes, but overall it's far better to take damage to as many components as possible because that gets you the maximum possible regeneration rate.
Example: Your gun deals 2 HP of damage per second. You are shooting an enemy ship that heals at the above rate.
Hitting the first armour plate, every second it regenerates 1HP, which leaves one HP of damage that must be repaired in the next second, but since you're constantly piling on damage it can't repair as quickly as you're hurting it.
However, you then get to the second layer. What happens here is that the first armour plate regenerates 1HP every second still. This soaks up 1HP of damage, and the other 1HP falls through to the second armour layer.
Because this layer can also repair, it promptly repairs that 1HP of damage, leaving it at full hitpoints until you find a way to deal more damage.
Obviously this is an extreme case where the damage is barely enough to overcome regeneration to start with, but it demonstrates the point that a ship's resistance to damage by way of repairs or regeneration increases when more components take damage. This can pose a problem when, for example, ten reloads are being pointed at a target, since you have to multiply the number of reloads by the number of damaged components to get the effective repair rate.
Any kind of damage to self-repairing components benefits from this regeneration increase, which is why the best situation for a ship regen-wise is to be on the second layer of defence on every arc, but the relatively slow regeneration rate of unassisted armour/shields prevents this from becoming overly powerful. Adding reloads can result in situations where a ship cannot be damaged because its repair rate suddenly doubles when the first defensive layer is breached.
Obviously, this is primarily a concern when actually in-combat, where your raw HP regeneration rate is an important factor in reducing incoming damage. Out of combat, the deciding factor for repair time to 100% is your most damaged component.
Note that "HP gain rate" and "time for components to reach 100%" are two subtly different things: A ship with 100 armour plates at 0% will reach 100% at the same time as a ship with 1 armour plate at 0%, but the ship with 100 armour plates will repair 100 times more hit points in a given period of time.
In conclusion, I'd like to see some kind of mechanism where reloads only have a certain HP repair rate which is divided evenly amongst all damaged components.
Stay tuned; I might write yet another rambling, incomprehensible post at some point.
tl; dr: Damaging one armour plate/shield causes regeneration. Damaging two armour plates/shields causes double that regeneration. Stacking 10 reloads on two damaged armour plates is like stacking 20 reloads on a single damaged plate, which is a problem for people shooting at them.
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This was exactly my reason for suggesting this idea in the first place, so thanks for summing it up better than I could (twice ) .
And thankfully Backslash told us that you guys are indeed looking at it, so that's good news to my ears.
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Interdictor: (DS) A planetary emplacement or Cruiser Class vessel capable of preventing FTL travel in a certain radius.
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