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Changing the way turning works |
Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
|  Posted: 2010-10-05 10:46
So here's a straightforward change that may cause interesting conseqences.
Why not change manueverability, or turn speed, based on how fast you're going?
The idea is, the faster you're moving, the faster you can turn. Of course, ships would then have a max/min turn rate. I would suggest a minimum turn rate would be at 10% speed or less and increases to a maximum turn rate at 50-60% speed. At no speed, you can't turn.
Ships manueverability now wouldn't be changed at all, nobody would get better or worse turning, it would just change when you have the best turn rate.
This prevents a few things like remaining in a stationary position and simply rotating your ship. You'd have to move. I get its the future and yes, we might have amazing thrusters and it is [i]space[/]i, but its also boring, among other things.
Among other things like, reducing tactics to mere smashbar fests - sitting still and lobbing volleys is more effective than trying to outwit your opponent by expending precious energy.
It gives greater strategic value to ships with broader arcs, and smaller ships. You can use maneuverability, but you have to keep moving and thus, expend energy. A dread would have to keep moving against a smaller target, otherwise the target can't take advantage of weak arcs.
This has seemed something of a problem i've noticed - why give ships weak arcs when theres's no incentive to try to? Nearly all ships have rear weak arcs but unless you're in a destroyer its just more effective energy wise to stay at a low speed and spacebar mash because your opponent can match you. With this, you can use speed to gain an angle advantage on a target that instead tries to fly at a lower speed and can thus, turn slower.
The whole idea is to give maneverability a greater say in combat tactics, thats the sum of it.
-Ent
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NoBoDx
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 14, 2003
Posts: 784
From: Germany / NRW
| Posted: 2010-10-05 11:03
not realistic because ships use their engines to turn
so the faster you move, the less energy is avaible to make course-changes and the turning-speed would be reduced
so heres a counter-sugestion:
- the slower the ship is moving, the faster the turning-speed
(max speed = turnrate 60% // "normal-speed"= turnrate 100% // standing still = turnrate 140% (normal-speed is 50% of max, unmodded ship-speed))
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DubStep Santa
Marshal
Joined: July 23, 2004
Posts: 80
From: Atlanta GA
| Posted: 2010-10-05 11:50
the slower a ship moves the more it can turn thats how it should be.
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Mersenne Twister
Fleet Admiral
Joined: May 11, 2003
Posts: 1161
From: Sector C Test Labs and Contol Facilities
| Posted: 2010-10-05 12:23
Quote:
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On 2010-10-05 11:03, NoBoDx wrote:
not realistic |
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i have space battleships shooting coherent light at space battlestations the size of small moons in space. your argument is invalid.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-10-05 12:32
Turn rates are uniform at all speeds, according to your "rudder" setting.
It is your turn radius that grows with your speed. The faster you move, the larger your turn radius. I think this already works nicely, and it is 'realistic'
Why change something that works?
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2010-10-05 12:34 ]
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2010-10-05 12:59
Quote:
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On 2010-10-05 12:32, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
Turn rates are uniform at all speeds, according to your "rudder" setting.
It is your turn radius that grows with your speed. The faster you move, the larger your turn radius. I think this already works nicely, and it is 'realistic'
Why change something that works?
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2010-10-05 12:34 ]
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Because you can sit stationary, using no energy, and can maintain pointed towards your target? That arcs have little point because manuerving isn't effective to take advantage of them against "weak spots"?
At the very least, it would stop what is basically the equivilent of artilerry warfare. Each side sits still or moves very very slow, and just hits the hell out of spacebar until one side is victorious.
There's no real advantage to flanking, to using speed and manueverability vs. raw firepower, its easier just to sit still or better yet, just point jump your target. Neccessitating movement to turn makes for many interesting combat dynamics.
-Ent
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2010-10-05 13:33
Fridge Logic: Thrusters on the back of your ship help spin them how again?
Also, how would moving faster help you turn faster? If anything, Having two engines at the back of a space faring vessel is like tank treads. If both are in full gear, you cannot turn at full speed because you would need to slow down one tank tread in order to turn the body.
If anything, ships should turn faster stationary. But these aren't tank treads and ships have fixed nozzles for lateral movement.
or something.
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ADmiraLMaXimus (Bringer of Doom)
Chief Marshal
Praetorian Wolves
Joined: March 09, 2002
Posts: 363
From: Earth
| Posted: 2010-10-05 14:08
Hmm maybe allow for tunring while moving in one constant direction...
perhaps a key could lock the forward movment while then allowing your ship to make an entire 360 while moving in the original forward direction.
then you can unlock your forward motion and your ship can then quickly make its adjustment to the new direction. then we could make an emergency turn in any direction even backwards... but the draw back would be that the hull would be affected the faster your speed and the sharper your turn the more stress to your hull.
this i feel this is realistic enough in the vaccum of space, where the effect on your hull has to do with your ships mass more than anything else.
just a thought 
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2010-10-05 18:07
Quote:
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On 2010-10-05 14:08, ADmiraLMaXimus (Bringer of Doom) wrote:
Hmm maybe allow for tunring while moving in one constant direction...
perhaps a key could lock the forward movment while then allowing your ship to make an entire 360 while moving in the original forward direction.
then you can unlock your forward motion and your ship can then quickly make its adjustment to the new direction. then we could make an emergency turn in any direction even backwards... but the draw back would be that the hull would be affected the faster your speed and the sharper your turn the more stress to your hull.
this i feel this is realistic enough in the vaccum of space, where the effect on your hull has to do with your ships mass more than anything else.
just a thought
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cool, just cool idea reminds me sort of cars in video games making a super sharp turn while braking, all while going forward
but the faster you go the more thrust is needed to turn. so slower should turn faster. otherwise jumping speeds are where you are most agile...
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2010-10-05 19:28
Yeah... We're pretty damn happy about how ships turn. Changing them would require re-evaluating every single ship (and gadget). And with us having just done Scout > Destroyer, I'm pretty sure some of us are not going to be happy with being asked to go back and evaluate and change them again.
At the end of the day, this is a needless change to 'fix' something that you are personally unhappy with. It would require more work than is worth too. Whilst I can see what point you're trying to make, I'm pretty damned sure the game encourages and supports actually moving your ship - otherwise we'd all be sat at planets going "COME HERE!", "NO U!".
Turning (at high, and slow speeds) is a tactical decision. If someone is turning their ship to distribute damage, then that's a tactical decision that player has made. They've also made the decision to cut their damage by doing so too.
A ship out-manouvering another ship at slow speeds generally requires more skill than someone at high speeds (in my experience anyway). I always feel more tense when getting in a bit of a dance at close range.
[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash on 2010-10-05 19:38 ]
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2010-10-05 19:37
This would basically completely change current tactics. As it is, moving more slowly is an advantage because you get a tighter turning radius, and thus can out-turn a faster moving ship because it covers less space to complete the turn. The disadvantages include having more trouble dodging incoming weapons fire and you're not necessarily going to be able to turn faster than the enemy can circle around you. Sitting still allows the enemy to perform "attack runs" at your most vulnerable arcs, moving away and repositioning before attacking again, even being able to account for the stationary ship's turns.
Moving quickly and moving more slowly both have advantages and disadvantages, and skilled pilots will be constantly changing their throttle settings for the best advantage.
Making ships turn faster when they move faster, in addition to being illogical, would make moving faster just straight better. You could out-turn a slower enemy as well as being able to dodge enemy fire. Slowing down in order to regain energy would be suicidal, since the faster enemy would easily outmanoeuvre you and would hold virtually all of the advantages. Combat would turn into everyone jamming the throttles full forward until they ran out of energy, at which point they'd jump out, methinks.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-10-05 20:59
The only other option is to apply faux-Newtonian physics to the game. On a 2D plane, you'll end up with....... STAR CONTROL! 
It would be interesting, yes? But I'll betcha there'll be a ton of players who'll slam into the nearest heavenly body within the first few days 
We'll definitely need a better autopilot to go along with this idea. 
Edit: Or... the devs could perhaps add in an "inertia" mode for the ships. Toggleable. You switch between the current "standard" atmospheric style of flying, and then have the option to turn off those engines and let the ship coast. Thrust will then be applied by using the Arrow pad (up), and retros (down).
Players can then develop more advanced tactics like strafing runs and such. But that's a moot point anyway since weaps are auto-targeting in DS. But creative players will probably find interesting ways to dodge fire and develop new manuevers, heh...
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2010-10-05 21:05 ]
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Sardaukar
Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: October 08, 2002
Posts: 1656
| Posted: 2010-10-05 21:11
I for one would love one day with Newtonian, just for the hilarity that would ensue.
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2010-10-05 21:23
get a crappy network connection and a lot of other bad things and you can barrel roll, move sideways, teleport, AND drift. thats what i call maneuvering.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-10-05 21:48
Quote:
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On 2010-10-05 21:11, Sardaukar wrote:
I for one would love one day with Newtonian, just for the hilarity that would ensue.
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LOL that's the idea.
Add in planetary gravity wells too.
Watch Shrooms smack into planets as they try to approach to camp. ROFL.
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