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Related to the armour ICC discussion. |
Okkam
Marshal
Joined: February 06, 2008
Posts: 157
From: Dorset
|  Posted: 2010-09-17 18:24
I was going to post this into the armour discussion but didn't want to go off subject.
I have an idea and i'm not complaining about ICC as a general but I am going back to my orriginal argument about stations and ICC.
As we can mostly agree, shields on ICC ships aren't as flawed as most people seem to think, atleast on the smaller ships. The loss comes in with the stations which ICC cannot realistically field because the other race's stations are superior. Due to this superiority the other races have the ability to move in with station support/dread fleets and attack ICC with ICC's only real defence being numbers or small ships. While HCs and destroyers are good they aren't good enough to act as a first and final line of defence.
Idea one:
Remove armour from ICC stations was mensioned but make shields better so how about an idea to make stations not use up anywhere near as much energy, if any at all, when in defence mode.
Typically defence mode doesn't actually give alot on ICC stations when under fire and if you are firing aswell as maxing shields then you will suck your energy dry then die but the station itself is huge and must have a freaking huge power core so the idea that it's own shields drains its energy dry is a bit thin. (A station is about the size of a small moon)
Idea two:
Introduce a module for stations that super sizes the shield recharge time while in defence mode but keep the energy drain the same. While some of you might complain about the idea behind giving a station some sort of super repair rate you can make the module replace one of their repair drone bays because lets face it, there's little need for it. (Isn't there ICC aux shield generators atm? If so then the're function is not being fully realised or implimented because they should do what I am saying for idea two)
ICC stations do the opposite to other race's stations and cannot be compared easily. They do not need to rotate but to assign their shields to one single or two arcs ( I would say 3, but if you're that surrounded, who cares about shield application?). This leaves the other arcs eventually buggered so that when the shield on the main arc dies the other shields cannot be used when rotating because of the lack of any shield left.
Idea three:
Shield Hardeners. It is an idea I have slightly stolen from EvE so bear with me.
You get the ability to swap out some sort of module on your station to make your shields more durable against a certain type of firepower. This is different than changing shield types out because you keep your shield but simply sacrifice er.. repair drone bay for instance for a harder shield. If any of you have flown ICC stations then you will understand when I say they are weak. If a ICC station turns up it WILL be primary target because it's a station, it won't cloak or move fast to avoid fire so it is a giant floating ball of crunchy prestige. You can have a module that increases the shield's ability to absorb damage meaning instead of giving a bigger buffer on the ICC station you simply have to design what your station should be used against. Damage dealt by kinetic warheads/energy beams and so on, it means that against the different races it can be useful but each race has a counter of some kind. Even K'luth aren't pure beams so you can't complain about a module that helps shields defend against energy beams.
So, summary:
- A module that would replace a repair drone bay that increases shield recharge rate while in defence mode. You still lose energy at the normal rate but suffer in armour/supply of ammo and friends for a better defence.
- Make stations lose the energy drain for being in defence mode because as mensioned stations are literally the size of moons in this game and it makes little sense that putting power to the shields to recharge fast would kill yourself in a ship designed to use and have great shields.
- A module that would replace somthing like a repair drone bay or somthing vital that would harden the shields against a certain weapon type. Don't ask me to give a real life analogy because if I could I would make shields a reality and retire early.
Please keep in mind i'm suggesting possible ideas and that you can and should build/comment on how these things are thought of, how/if they can be implimented. I am also not interested in rage posts such as "OMG, quit crying over ICC" or "ICC is fine" or "It wont work" as these replies simply waste time, either form a real argument with valid points or stay quiet. It isn't a developer announcement so no need to blow a fuse.
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Lrd_Hunter
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 16, 2006
Posts: 245
| Posted: 2010-09-17 18:55
i kindof sorta agree with the whole energy drain thing for stations maybe slow it down or something but i think we should wait on posting any ideas on redoing this or that until them come out wit hthe station and dread patches cause they may be doing something with icc stations then.
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Okkam
Marshal
Joined: February 06, 2008
Posts: 157
From: Dorset
| Posted: 2010-09-17 19:13
That being said, yes there are changes coming soon. From the impressions I get from dev reports the changes aren't being done atm due to other works needing to be finished first. Just throwing the ideas out there so that when the ship changes come in they have a nice array of ideas to pick from. If I get the ideas in now, they might come in with the whole ship changes.
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Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
| Posted: 2010-09-17 20:04
I think the stock answer I'm supposed to give is "wait until we do the station layout revamp."
Like in the other thread, it may be a matter of other factions having a stronger ship than they "need" and thus the factions will be more balanced once everyone is tweaked. Or maybe ICC are inherently disadvantaged and will need something new; we'll make that determination once we are reworking the ships.
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NoBoDx
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 14, 2003
Posts: 784
From: Germany / NRW
| Posted: 2010-09-17 20:16
defence-mode was never intended to be used under fire
the reason, why it was implemented is that kluth and ugto only have armor and can re-join battles faster than icc, which get their armor repaired fast, but have to waite 5...10 minutes till their shields have recharged
(the last topic about improving icc-shields before the defense-mode)
imho the 8x energy-drain isn't enough to make sure it is only used when out of combat
apart from this, the icc-station-shields are to weak
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Fatal Command (CO)
Marshal
Fatal Squadron
Joined: November 27, 2002
Posts: 1158
From: over here in New York noticing some ppl are like canoes.....they need to be paddled.
| Posted: 2010-09-18 07:29
1.
ICC Stations are NOT close combat ships.If you stay in close you deserve to die.
2.
ICC shields are fine.ICC armor is fine.ICC weps are fine.Leave ICC ships the hell alone.we been nerfed enough already.
3 .
no,NO and NO.
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Alois Falix
Grand Admiral
Joined: July 26, 2006
Posts: 22
| Posted: 2010-09-18 07:43
My idea regarding aux shield gens was to either make it so the additional shield ring they provide went behind the bigger more powerful active shields instead of in front. This is because it is a colassal waste of energy to redirect it into the weaker aux shield when under fire I want my actives which are harder to bring down taking damage.
Or.
Aux shield gens can be tooled to provide a hitpoint boost to active shields with diminishing returns for multiple modules similair to how planetary shields work ( 1 planet shield gives 100% 2 give 150) but in a smalled diminishing percentage starting at say...20% with one aux shield and diminishing by 5% for each additional aux shield module.
Or.
Retool aux shields to provide recharge rate but exempt them from or have them not be functional in def mode so the aux gens become useful in combat.
My 2cents.
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Marius Falix
Grand Admiral
Joined: July 05, 2010
Posts: 268
From: Luyten
| Posted: 2010-09-18 07:52
naturally i agree with Alois. aux shields would be better for recharging.
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deathblave
Marshal
Joined: October 10, 2007
Posts: 268
| Posted: 2010-09-18 10:23
i run a line station in defense mode and fight and move at the same time and the energy stays stable for me im sure some ugto players can vouch for the tank i use icc station needs no update or new gadits it just needs to be used smart not as a club to use wildy and die with.
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
| Posted: 2010-09-18 10:37
Quote:
| On 2010-09-18 10:23, deathblave wrote:
i run a line station in defense mode and fight and move at the same time and the energy stays stable for me. |
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You must be desynced.
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2010-09-18 12:00
a really really good strategy is to go all aux energy gen and defense mode tank
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deathblave
Marshal
Joined: October 10, 2007
Posts: 268
| Posted: 2010-09-19 02:57
nope not desynced at all
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Starcommander
Marshal
Joined: December 14, 2005
Posts: 579
From: In your base, stealing your cookies
| Posted: 2010-09-19 05:58
The real issue ICC stations have now is Range. They were just fine when Ion Cannons could shoot 1950gu, making the LS equal to its UGTO counterpart. Now with all the ranges a measly 250gu difference, the weakness of ICC stations has come to bare. They were weak then too, but when you could shoot anything out at that long range, it didn't matter (devs in there infinite wisdom in not seeing the issues of a range reduction, even if it was universal it would hurt ICC the most).
As its been stated before, shields on all OTHER ships are fine as is. Rotation is what they need and they have it, stations don't need rotation. Since after-all you have the same firepower no matter the facing.
When the station's get there revamp we will see either nerfing taking place to UGTO/Kluth stations, or ICC's station getting a much needed update.
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