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[Suggestion] Layout-change for command-dreads |
Red October
Fleet Admiral
Joined: May 30, 2010
Posts: 165
From: Stillwater, Oklahoma
|  Posted: 2010-09-08 13:47
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On 2010-09-08 06:04, Kenny_Naboo wrote:
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On 2010-09-08 03:14, Red October wrote:
Here is a idea for the command gadgets. If the command gadget is activated within a group, it spreads only to that group that has the command dreadnought in it. This will encourage more command dreadnoughts and groups within the battle field. Gives a added bonus for starting up a group instead of being loner.
Command Gadgets
Name: Rapid Assault
Type: Command Gadget
Energy Drainage: 5
Cooldown Rate: 10
Group Module: Yes
Description: The user that activates this gadget in a group, it reduces 6%% seconds off group's weapon and beam cooldown rate.
Name: Bypass
Type: Command Gadget
Energy Drainage: 5
Cooldown Rate: 10
Group Module: Yes
Description: The user that activates this gadget in a group, it reduces 6% of the group's energy drainage and add's 6% energy regeneration.
Name: Overdrive
Type: Command Gadget
Energy Drainage: 5
Cooldown Rate: 10
Group Module: Yes
Description: The user that activates this gadget in a group, it add 6% to group's top speed, accleration, and turning rate.
Name: Hardening
Type: Command Gadget
Energy Drainage: 5
Cooldown Rate: 10
Group Module: Yes
Description: The user that activates this gadget in a group, it add 6% to group's defense and gives 6% less damage.
Name: Booster
Type: Command Gadget
Energy Drainage: 5
Cooldown Rate: 10
Group Module: Yes
Description: The user that activates this gadget in a group, it adds 6% to the group's weapon and beam range.
Name: Strike
Type: Command Gadget
Energy Drainage: 5
Cooldown Rate: 10
Group Module: Yes
Description: The user that activates this gadget in a group, it add 6% to group's weapon and beam damage.
[ This Message was edited by: Red October on 2010-09-08 03:16 ]
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These all look like RPG stuff to me.... the +5% HP, +10% SPD kinda things....
Stats stuff you find in a roll based game.
I rather see some more tangible or realistic abilities or effects. Like the ability to set waypoints for your group, or controlling a planet's defences to fire at someone, etc etc.
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Enhancements do the same thing Kenny. I designed these boosts to be like enhancements, but temporary enhancements for groups. Boost their powers and strength!
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Bardiche
Chief Marshal
Joined: November 16, 2006
Posts: 1247
| Posted: 2010-09-08 14:50
A little bird told me the developers are presently looking to change the way Command Dreads work in-game sometime in the future.
Their current focus appears to be a rework of the way fighters interact with targets and how the launcher interacts with his fighter squads. After that, Cruisers should receive their overhauls, and after that, Dreads get their turn.
Jim's stated on multiple occassions that he intends to design each ship around their role and to excel at it. Then of course, we arrive at the Command Ship who no one really has a clue for as to the PURPOSE of these ships; they're pretty generally viewed as useless.
The one niche they fill is the ability to bomb and then rebuild a planet immediately afterwards, but their abyssmally slow building speed means using a Cruiser to bomb, then run back to SY and getting an Engineer will STILL be faster than building with a Command Dread. To say nothing of how they cannot use the engineering enhancements.
Devices for group-related boosts are interesting and definitely a way to encourage the use of Command Dreadnoughts. I think, for now, though, until those devices are actually planned, balanced and implemented? It'd be a good idea to focus on Command Dreadnoughts as Command ships. Less direct combat functionality, more "stay at the centre of fleet and coordinate the attack" functionality such as fighters. (launching them means you can enter NavMap and then instruct others appropriately)
As for comparisons to the Command STATIONS... well, it's true. Command Dread is an inferior Command Station. It'd be nice if the two could compete with each other, so that we're not going to see dozens of Command Stations floating around when those group-devices are implemented.
[ This Message was edited by: Bardiche on 2010-09-08 14:51 ]
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2010-09-08 19:32
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On 2010-09-08 06:04, Kenny_Naboo wrote:
These all look like RPG stuff to me.... the +5% HP, +10% SPD kinda things....
Stats stuff you find in a roll based game.
I rather see some more tangible or realistic abilities or effects. Like the ability to set waypoints for your group, or controlling a planet's defences to fire at someone, etc etc.
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Agree completely. While you could justify certain effects as crews being inspired or better-coordinated, we already have enhancements for that kind of thing.
More interesting would be devices that change the dynamics of the game. For example, a CnC Suite that let command ships control other ships in a more advanced manner, or a fire control system that highlighted enemy ships for allied ships to concentrate fire upon.
Sure, they might give +x% range or whatever at the same time, but they've got effects that are more than "everyone in range gets more powerful guns for no adequately explained reason".
Also, devices called "Strike" and "booster" sound wierd when compared to real-sounding gadgets like "Command and Control Suite" or "Fleet Fire Control Centre".
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
| Posted: 2010-09-09 12:47
If order AI ships is the only ability of command dread/station user, then it's reasonable. How can non-command ship give command to others? lol
Personally, I think Command dread is not necessary for game. Command, by default opinion, is often given from the highest - the command station.
Besides, as player, unless Bronze pirate is too difficult to archieve, then who will drive command dread rather than command station? The point is safety. A command dread hardly defense itself from a combat & assault cruiser while station can push back a non assualt dread. In facts, there are Luthies. Basically, a command dread stays behind the fleet is an easy target, just like MD or Aricourt. You don't want to change ship frequently.
I know that making ship excel is a headache job. IMO, re-arrange existent gadgets won't rise the need of command dread. Completely NEW devices for command are the hopeful solution.
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Red October
Fleet Admiral
Joined: May 30, 2010
Posts: 165
From: Stillwater, Oklahoma
| Posted: 2010-09-09 23:07
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On 2010-09-08 19:32, Gejaheline wrote:
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On 2010-09-08 06:04, Kenny_Naboo wrote:
These all look like RPG stuff to me.... the +5% HP, +10% SPD kinda things....
Stats stuff you find in a roll based game.
I rather see some more tangible or realistic abilities or effects. Like the ability to set waypoints for your group, or controlling a planet's defences to fire at someone, etc etc.
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Agree completely. While you could justify certain effects as crews being inspired or better-coordinated, we already have enhancements for that kind of thing.
More interesting would be devices that change the dynamics of the game. For example, a CnC Suite that let command ships control other ships in a more advanced manner, or a fire control system that highlighted enemy ships for allied ships to concentrate fire upon.
Sure, they might give +x% range or whatever at the same time, but they've got effects that are more than "everyone in range gets more powerful guns for no adequately explained reason".
Also, devices called "Strike" and "booster" sound wierd when compared to real-sounding gadgets like "Command and Control Suite" or "Fleet Fire Control Centre".
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I just can't win, can I? I try and try... but all ideas from me get rejected.
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2010-09-09 23:57
currently command dreads are for lower ranks who don't have command station.
if you do have the command station, you are probably using the command dread to insult your enemy.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-09-10 01:41
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On 2010-09-08 19:32, Gejaheline wrote:
Agree completely. While you could justify certain effects as crews being inspired or better-coordinated, we already have enhancements for that kind of thing.
More interesting would be devices that change the dynamics of the game. For example, a CnC Suite that let command ships control other ships in a more advanced manner, or a fire control system that highlighted enemy ships for allied ships to concentrate fire upon.
Sure, they might give +x% range or whatever at the same time, but they've got effects that are more than "everyone in range gets more powerful guns for no adequately explained reason".
Also, devices called "Strike" and "booster" sound wierd when compared to real-sounding gadgets like "Command and Control Suite" or "Fleet Fire Control Centre".
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Actually, one command device idea could be a type of fire control director gadget. It's simply a targetting command for the entire fleet.
Eg: You select the "Direct Fire" button on your screen, and you select a point in space, or an enemy ship. And every ship in your fleet or group (depending on how it's implemented) will be able to see that ship being highlighted or recticled as "PRIMARY TARGET". And in F2 tact, he might be flashing red or something.
It will help save on F4 chat. This could be your Fleet Fire Control gadget. Only available on Command Dreads and Stations.
Also, Command ships should be able to control a planet's defs. Then the pilot can direct the planet to target a particular enemy ship that he/she deems to be the primary threat. This is usually the enemy bomber force or command station.
Next, right now, players are able to call on AI ships and direct them to attack an enemy, or defend someone/themselves. What if only Command ships/stations can give commands to Dreads and above AIs; while other ships are limited to commanding AI Cruisers and below?
Players are somehow also able to target a friendly player and give him commands. Some players don't like this (especially those on the receiving end  ) This ability should be limited to command ships.
Other than that, I suggested combining the Carrier and Command dread into one. Command dreads may have a single core weapon (unlike now), and a whole lot of anti-ship fighters. (Cue in the suggestion for torpedo fighters). They do not have much direct offensive capabilities themselves, but their fighters will give them a long range punch.
And a new option should be given for fighters. The ability to give them orders. This is probably in the works  . May I suggest besides the usual Attack, Defend, Return to Base... we add in a CAP function where the fighters will simply circle the mothership at 300 to 400 GUs and attack any enemy entering the perimeter.
Ultimately, the Command ship must be attractive in some way, it has to have some kinda combat ability while not being OP or completely defenseless.
- It has to have CCC capabilities, hence the ability to mark a primary target, direct a planet's defs, call on the heavier AIs, and direct friendly players.
- It has to stay away from the immediate furball, and yet have some kind of ability to do damage, hence it should have fighters that have teeth.
- It should also be able to defend itself against smaller ships that come its way, hence it should have at least a single core weapon, and enough cannons and PDs to destroy the single frig or dessie that come its way... but it should still be vulnerable against multiple dessies, cruisers and other single dreads up close.
Lastly, how about putting Command Dreads at GA level, and move the Command station to CM level?
And give their pilots a 10% boost in pres gain for any actions... but also a +10% loss for any negative action. Make them attractive to fly somewhat... with a risk, of course.
I dunno if the Command Dread should retain their mining, bombing and building functions. No comments on that.
But i think the Command stations should have all those abilities. Stations do have the size to hold the equipment of course.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo[+R] on 2010-09-10 01:44 ]
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NoBoDx
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 14, 2003
Posts: 784
From: Germany / NRW
| Posted: 2010-09-10 04:12
Quote:
| Actually, one command device idea could be a type of fire control director gadget. It's simply a targetting command for the entire fleet.
Eg: You select the "Direct Fire" button on your screen, and you select a point in space, or an enemy ship. And every ship in your fleet or group (depending on how it's implemented) will be able to see that ship being highlighted or recticled as "PRIMARY TARGET". And in F2 tact, he might be flashing red or something.
It will help save on F4 chat. This could be your Fleet Fire Control gadget. Only available on Command Dreads and Stations.
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actually the fire control tower is afaik a system to direct friendly cannons so why not adding some bonusses to the gadget (in addition to the target mark) ? eg increased damage and bullet speed because the tower increase the accuracy ( weapons in ds always hit the point theyre fired at)
and some increase in weapon range since the target-caculations are made by the tower
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2010-09-10 07:40
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On 2010-09-10 01:41, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
Actually, one command device idea could be a type of fire control director gadget. It's simply a targetting command for the entire fleet.
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Wow, it's almost like that's a new idea and I didn't suggest it in the very post you're quoting.
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Also, Command ships should be able to control a planet's defs. Then the pilot can direct the planet to target a particular enemy ship that he/she deems to be the primary threat. This is usually the enemy bomber force or command station.
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This could possibly prove somewhat fiddly, since each defence base on a planet is autonomous, so you'd either have to command each base individually or there would have to be some kind of arrangement made to be able to issue orders to the planet as a whole, which would then transmit the orders to its bases. Since the AI is currently rather single-minded, there would also have to be some way to tell if a defence base can't hit a certain target and have it engage targets of opportunity instead.
In short: Would require rather a lot of work.
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Next, right now, players are able to call on AI ships and direct them to attack an enemy, or defend someone/themselves. What if only Command ships/stations can give commands to Dreads and above AIs; while other ships are limited to commanding AI Cruisers and below?
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I'd go one step further and say that only command ships can give orders to AI (except for those ships created by the ally enhancements you can buy), particularly since AI dreadnaughts don't turn up very often, and AI stations are nonexistent.
Additionally, think it would be nice if there was some way for command ships to summon/create AI ships, or at least specify which ships you want. Combine this with some form of prestige from issuing successful orders (getting a fraction of the prestige earned by an ordered ship, for example), and you have an offensive weapon in the form of allied ships rather than direct fire.
The main issues with something like that, however, is that letting people spawn extra AI ships would destabilise the balance of AI ships in the game world, and it would reduce the value of the "ship ally" enhancement that you can buy.
But this is practically an entire discussion topic in itself.
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Players are somehow also able to target a friendly player and give him commands. Some players don't like this (especially those on the receiving end ) This ability should be limited to command ships.
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I'm not sure about this one. Logically, higher-ranked officers can give orders to lower-ranked officers, but the concept of chain-of-command does imply that giving orders to people outside of your command chain isn't the best of ideas.
There are a few tweaks that could be made:
My favourite one is telling the recieving player who sent the order, possibly with some kind of prefix if the issuing player is a command ship.
So an order might look like "Order recieved from Admiral McOrderpeople, ATTACK Hapless McVictim.", or "Order recieved from Command (Fleet Admiral McCommanddread), ATTACK Target McDeathdeath."
Players could give orders to lower-ranked people, but people in command ships can issue orders to ships with a higher rank that aren't a command ship.
Alternatively, people could be unable to give orders except to their "personal" AI ships and possibly their group members if they're a group leader, while command ships can order everyone.
Or, taking the "ordering groups" bit and extending it, command ships can form "battle groups" that are effectively groups of groups, and they can issue orders to group leaders whilst counting as a small fraction of a member of each group they command. Group leaders could request or be requested to join a battle group by a command ship.
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Other than that, I suggested combining the Carrier and Command dread into one. Command dreads may have a single core weapon (unlike now), and a whole lot of anti-ship fighters. (Cue in the suggestion for torpedo fighters). They do not have much direct offensive capabilities themselves, but their fighters will give them a long range punch.
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Giving command ships long-range weapons is logical. They're not front-line ships and probably wouldn't be armed and armoured like front-line ships, so they'd probably have lots of fighters or missiles, fighters being nice because they have a very long range and soon will be able to be ordered around.
Also: Torpedo fighters? Gimme gunboats with tachyon drives, for the ultimate in long-range attack capability.
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And a new option should be given for fighters. The ability to give them orders. This is probably in the works . May I suggest besides the usual Attack, Defend, Return to Base... we add in a CAP function where the fighters will simply circle the mothership at 300 to 400 GUs and attack any enemy entering the perimeter.
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It's almost like this hasn't already been suggested and people aren't working on it, and isn't one reason why new cruiser designs have been delayed.
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Ultimately, the Command ship must be attractive in some way, it has to have some kinda combat ability while not being OP or completely defenseless.
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Statement of the obvious.
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- It has to have CCC capabilities, hence the ability to mark a primary target, direct a planet's defs, call on the heavier AIs, and direct friendly players.
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It probably won't have the ability to do all of this at the same time, if we have some kind of swappable command-type gadget.
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- It has to stay away from the immediate furball, and yet have some kind of ability to do damage, hence it should have fighters that have teeth.
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Can't argue there.
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- It should also be able to defend itself against smaller ships that come its way, hence it should have at least a single core weapon, and enough cannons and PDs to destroy the single frig or dessie that come its way... but it should still be vulnerable against multiple dessies, cruisers and other single dreads up close.
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"Defend against small ships" and "core weapon" don't really go in the same sentence. I can have it seeing a good amount of PD and ewar, but it won't need guns since it'll have lots of fighters.
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Lastly, how about putting Command Dreads at GA level, and move the Command station to CM level?
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That implies that this dread would be more potent than stations, which would only really be okay if it gave some really good advantages or you could summon a whole horde of allied ships with it, for example. Disinclined to agree with this one.
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And give their pilots a 10% boost in pres gain for any actions... but also a +10% loss for any negative action. Make them attractive to fly somewhat... with a risk, of course.
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If the command ship effectively groups with allied ships that it commands, this is already implemented, after a fashion. It will gain and lose prestige based on the performance of its underlings.
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I dunno if the Command Dread should retain their mining, bombing and building functions. No comments on that.
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Possibly the building function, in my opinion. Not sure about the rest of them.
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But i think the Command stations should have all those abilities. Stations do have the size to hold the equipment of course.
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I expect that all stations will be getting their capabilities reduced. Personally, I'm of the opinion that no one ship should be able to do absolutely everything, which the current command station can, I believe.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2010-09-10 10:35
FCT would be great, especially if it can visibly highlight a target that everyone else in the same faction could see, and possibly giving some kind of bonus for attacking that target like slightly increased damage or slightly higher pres gain. Only problem would be multiple command ships giving different targets.
Ordering planets to attack something sounds like a bad idea. We already order planets in a way by building them, locking them, and turning structures on and off. Besides, planet defenses are near worthless, a single DN has more firepower than a planet full of bases.
Battlegroup idea sounds good on paper but how often do you think it'd actually be used? That and where would it display all those names without getting in the way? Unless it's only the player in the command ship that sees them all and everyone else just sees the people in their own group.
As far as controlling AI.....would it be possible to give a command ship a pool of command points that it could use to summon AI from the nearest friendly SY? Bigger ships take more points, and the pool regenerates over time as long as long as it's not currently maxed out. Obviously there would need to be a cap on how many AI can be summoned at a time as well, otherwise you could get someone calling up a horde of Frigates and Scouts and lagging everyone.
Examples:
20 points in the pool, player summons a Dreadnought for 10, a Cruiser for 6, and a Destroyer for 4, totalling all 20 points. Pool reads 0/20 and stays that way until one of the summoned AI is killed off, and 3/4 units, even though there's an open unit slot no more can be summoned because there are no points left. If the Cruiser dies the pool would slowly regenerate until it shows 6/20 and not go any higher until another AI dies.
20 points in the pool, player summons 4 Frigates for 2 points each, pool reads 12/20, and 4/4 units, even though there are enough points left to summon more ships the unit pool is full so they have to wait until something dies to bring out anything else. One Frigate dies, points go up to 14/20 and the player summons a Cruiser for 6, points now read 8/20 and again 4/4 units so there are still points left but no more AI can be summoned at the time.
Gives Command ships more utility, and ally summon enhancements are still useful since anyone can use them regardless of what ship they're flying.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-09-10 14:23
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On 2010-09-10 07:40, Gejaheline wrote:
Wow, it's almost like that's a new idea and I didn't suggest it in the very post you're quoting.
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Yeah whoops. To be completely honest, I didn't actually read through your post when I quoted you.
Seriously!
Seems like we're having some convergence of ideas here.
Which could be a good thing. As it could mean that it does have merit after all.
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2010-09-10 14:52
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On 2010-09-10 14:23, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
I didn't actually read through your post when I quoted you.
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Guess what I find highly annoying. I'll spare everyone the lecture.
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On 2010-09-10 10:35, Talien wrote:
FCT would be great, ... some kind of bonus for attacking that target... Only problem would be multiple command ships giving different targets.
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Indeed. The issue with multiple command ships could be solved with a thing called "teamwork", I suspect. Or you end up with lots of "primary target" diamonds, which is called "poor commanders".
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Ordering planets to attack something sounds like a bad idea.
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Uh-huh. Complicated, can't see it being used all that much.
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Battlegroup idea sounds good on paper but how often do you think it'd actually be used? ... Unless it's only the player in the command ship that sees them all and everyone else just sees the people in their own group.
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Yes, you'd probably need a fair few players for it to become viable. An alternative would be that command ships could command people who are ungrouped and unassigned to a command ship as well, making it more fluid.
The idea would be that the command ship sees the commanders of groups, and possibly a summary of how many people are present in the group. Assigned groups would see something like "Command: [-GTN-]Gejaheline" above their group display.
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As far as controlling AI.....would it be possible to give a command ship a pool of command points that it could use to summon AI from the nearest friendly SY?
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Hmm. This is basically a version of ally ship enhancements. It lets you use the same number of ships, except you can't spawn 4 stations at once, although it does let you replace ships when they die.
I'd be inclined to let you have any combination and number of ships up to your command limit, giving you a maximum ship count that consists of nothing but scouts.
This does, however, undermine ally enhancements, which goes into the realm of "does Faustus want to make ally enhancements less powerful compared to something you don't need to pay for?"
Unless you paid credits for the command device that lets you summon such ships, at least.
And, of course, all of these different functions should be incorporated into separate sets of devices, so for example an AI-controlling ship couldn't also act as, say, a fire controller.
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2010-09-10 16:10
I didn't realize there was a limit on the number of AI you could summon at one time with enhancements, I'd asked in game before and was told there was no limit to how many you could use.
But yeah, the idea was separate interchangeable gadgets, one for the FCT aspect to designate primary targets, and the other for the "fleet commander" aspect to call in AI. I suppose it's still different to the ally enhancements though, no Stations, and you'd have to go down to Destroyers to be able to call 4 of the same ship size. I'd also say the summoned AI should be limited to the types of the basic AI that spawn randomly.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-09-11 03:43
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On 2010-09-10 14:52, Gejaheline wrote:
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On 2010-09-10 14:23, Kenny_Naboo[+R] wrote:
I didn't actually read through your post when I quoted you.
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Guess what I find highly annoying. I'll spare everyone the lecture.
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LOL. Er... thanks for not nagging then. 
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2010-09-11 03:58
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On 2010-09-07 23:39, Saint Valentine wrote:
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On 2010-09-07 04:44, Gejaheline wrote:
Long ago, command dreads did have reload drones. Alas, they no longer have them, and probably won't ever have them again, which I think is a bit of a shame but that's how it is.
I believe that command dreads will at some point get some kind of "command gadget" that lets them grant bonuses to allied ships in the area.
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They need to lose the bombs too. But yeah, having multiple area effect gadgets that provide bonuses would be awesome
-Ent
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Wow anyone?
Keep the area effect WoW crap and give the CDs back reloads.
But that would just be too logical, right?
Not like DS at all to go that route
[ This Message was edited by: Azreal on 2010-09-11 04:00 ]
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