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Concerns about new missiles |
warlord 1050
Admiral
Joined: April 05, 2006
Posts: 19
|  Posted: 2010-08-23 04:19
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On 2010-08-22 12:23, BackSlash wrote:
So much baseless fiction being touted here.
The Pulse Laser, as a lot of ICC are finding out, is very, very powerful. Plus I have no idea where this notion of 'When ICC use missiles, no-one should be able to counter it' came from. PD is the counter to this type of stuff, and whilst it has received a fairly large boost this patch, it will drain your energy in a short period of time if used incorrectly.
A single MD can plow through the front armour of an EAD (a ship with the most beams on UGTO) easily if it doesn't use its HCL's. If you do use them, it's a race against how long the energy lasts until you have to retreat. If you're moving even slightly towards (or away from) the missiles being flung at you, then you're even more at a disadvantage due to energy generation at high speeds.
Yesterday a fleet of about 9 UGTO (even with PD) were forced to jump in close to a fleet of 4 ICC due to the amount of missiles they were putting out.
Before this change a fleet could do very little against a handful of MD's flinging a metric ton of missiles, or any ship for that matter. Now there's a counter, but it comes at a price of energy consumption. This is an acceptable trade, and unless the new PD system puts unnecessary strain on the server, it won't be disapearing anytime soon.
I would suggest those whining about the change in such a childish and un-educated manner, to go in and try it out. To those particular ICC players - just because a faction is better at long range, does not mean it is meant to be the absolute power at long range.
As far as smaller ships go - we give them electronic warfare slots for a reason - try and use them.
- Jack
[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash on 2010-08-22 12:23 ]
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all you talk about is md's and fleets.
you didn't discuss or take into consideration smaller ships, aka when you play in scenario mode before you have sy and enough resc's to spawn a strong fleet.
And scenario is pretty popular the last days I played.
A few missile scouts/frig's are now not effective any more, making me fall back on close ranged attack ships.
Also in early scenario there are no or almost no supplies, neighter in ai.
So there a missile frig or scout is useless now to give support if it has to weight for the other craft to fall without energy for their missiles to hit, as by that time all missiles are used up.
Those small ships are less useful later in game as well, now they finally had a small but useful contribution to fleet fights after the new ship layouts on smaller ships. That is for low level players that is.
So the missile remake should solve this.
I suggest for example to decreasing the signature of missiles to such extend that you - sometimes - need eccm to see them, this also doesn't have to be for all missiles. But primarily for long ranged as the are the slowest of all missiles.
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NoBoDx
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 14, 2003
Posts: 784
From: Germany / NRW
| Posted: 2010-08-23 04:29
Point defence right now is really op
some days ago icc send so many missles towards ugtos, that an admin ordered them to stop it
flew around with my picket-dessie, and took almost all the missles from 2 icc-support-stations + MD without problems
when i was out of energy, i was still able to take half that amount alone and run around at half speed
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*Obsidian Shadow*
Grand Admiral
Joined: January 03, 2010
Posts: 316
| Posted: 2010-08-23 08:42
rail guns.... have long range
ion cannons....have long range
gauss guns....have long range
ICC still have a good long range advantage over UGTO but people are stuck in this mentality of missiles are what makes ICC long range and now we are having "DEV'S ARE UGTO BIAS" no they're not they are balancing the game and making smaller ships more usefull all i'm saying is
GOOD JOB DEVS KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!!!
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The Fridge
Chief Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: December 13, 2008
Posts: 559
From: In Your Fridge, Eating your Foods.
| Posted: 2010-08-23 08:44
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On 2010-08-23 08:42, obsidian shadow wrote:
rail guns.... have long range
ion cannons....have long range
gauss guns....have long range
ICC still have a good long range advantage over UGTO but people are stuck in this mentality of missiles are what makes ICC long range and now we are having "DEV'S ARE UGTO BIAS" no they're not they are balancing the game and making smaller ships more usefull all i'm saying is
GOOD JOB DEVS KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!!!
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It's easier to close range, then keep it.
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Rebellion
Marshal
Faster than Light
Joined: June 20, 2009
Posts: 730
From: sol
| Posted: 2010-08-23 09:43
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On 2010-08-23 03:17, Admiral Killstuff wrote:
Im glad that the admins responded to all the concerns about ICC being tremendously overpowered. Thank you.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2010-08-23 09:53
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On 2010-08-23 04:10, Antra wrote:
Sigh. I guess this is my fault for bringing it up.
New-ish PD: NOT ON TOPIC
Existing layouts for cruisers and larger: NOT ON TOPIC
NEW MISSILES on NEW CRUISER AND LARGER LAYOUTS...which we haven't seen yet.
I was voicing some concerns based on theory and I, like every other player, have not seen the new layouts in use so I don't have anything concrete. That's why the thread title includes the word "concerns" as opposed to "problems with the game" or somesuch.
Just something I wanted the devs to think about if they hadn't already, and I assume that any dev team designing new missiles and layouts would already be thinking about how those new missiles can/should be defended against.
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As the players who helped me test the new PD system know (all of which were ICC players and none complained), the new tier 3 missiles for cruisers and dreads are very powerful. Even if you use PD, you're going to get hurt.
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Antra
Admiral
Agents
Joined: February 16, 2002
Posts: 657
From: Grand Rapids, Michigan
| Posted: 2010-08-23 10:26
Sounds good to me. Thanks Jack!
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2010-08-23 10:34
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On 2010-08-23 09:53, BackSlash wrote:
As the players who helped me test the new PD system know (all of which were ICC players and none complained), the new tier 3 missiles for cruisers and dreads are very powerful. Even if you use PD, you're going to get hurt.
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This. Escort/Picket DDs trying to PD tier3 missiles will die in short order if they try screening them from directly between the ship(s) firing them and the target. The only way to do it is from off to the side where you're barely in PD range of a few of them, and let the larger ships take care of the rest themselves. Tier3s have a good amount of AOE and do a lot of damage.
However, it's true we only tested with MDs and some other AI ships that spit out large numbers of missiles, we didn't test Frigates/Destroyers.
Quote:
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On 2010-08-23 04:19, warlord 1050 wrote:
all you talk about is md's and fleets.
you didn't discuss or take into consideration smaller ships, aka when you play in scenario mode before you have sy and enough resc's to spawn a strong fleet.
And scenario is pretty popular the last days I played.
A few missile scouts/frig's are now not effective any more, making me fall back on close ranged attack ships.
Also in early scenario there are no or almost no supplies, neighter in ai.
So there a missile frig or scout is useless now to give support if it has to weight for the other craft to fall without energy for their missiles to hit, as by that time all missiles are used up.
Those small ships are less useful later in game as well, now they finally had a small but useful contribution to fleet fights after the new ship layouts on smaller ships. That is for low level players that is.
So the missile remake should solve this.
I suggest for example to decreasing the signature of missiles to such extend that you - sometimes - need eccm to see them, this also doesn't have to be for all missiles. But primarily for long ranged as the are the slowest of all missiles.
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.....Resulting in issues like this. Maybe increasing the speed for T1/T2 missiles may be in order, or giving them low signature like ARs? UGTO missile Scout was always nearly useless but now it's literally a waste to fly one, and Missile/Harrier Frigates along with Missile Destroyers are pretty well gimped too since they run out of energy so quickly, even if they have support ships to keep their missiles reloaded they'll still have energy issues.
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2010-08-23 11:57
ICC is still long range as stated
-railguns not only have range, they are fast, no falloff turns your "peashooters" better than pcannon above 400 gu, the medium range where alot of battle and combat dreads fight
-ion cannons have range and seem to be the fastest projectile there is
-new pd system probably puts pulse laser/beam at a very powerful place, making sure icc can't be hit with long range easily
In fact not only are your railguns and ion cannons good at killing at range, they are better than hitting small ships than other factions' cores and cannons and now that railgun range got velocity buff its even better at it
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Antra
Admiral
Agents
Joined: February 16, 2002
Posts: 657
From: Grand Rapids, Michigan
| Posted: 2010-08-23 12:17
This is my thread so I'm going to be cranky.
Please do not discuss factional themes (such as "ICC long-rangedness"), non-missile weapons except for beams and their interaction with missiles, etc.
If you want to whine about missiles or other ranged weapons that's fine, but please do it elsewhere. At least have enough respect for the development team to let them finish their work before critiquing it -- K'luth and human T3 missiles and cruiser/station/dread layouts.
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Wild Cat
Fleet Admiral
Joined: August 28, 2004
Posts: 109
From: The Netherlands
| Posted: 2010-08-23 12:51
A while back I recall a dev posting that the amount of missile launchers will be reduced to 6 (or  max on the new ship layout and planets might lose their missiles completely.
The only reason I could think of why this might be done is to reduce missile spam that comes hand in hand with server lag.
With the current PD, basic missile (or lower tier) don't have a chance in hell to break through a point defense that matches the missile volley.
If point defense is equal to missile volley, it will take out the missile volley period.
So far I've seen more missiles being fired "trying" to break through.
More missiles equals more lag.
I don't understand why we didn't stick with the old point defense with the fire delays between beams. With a volley of 4 or 5 missiles, point defense could not keep up and out that volley 1 or 2 would break through and hit.
Stronger and better point defense pretty much makes missiles pointless or at least the lower tier missiles. The bigger and stronger ones with a large blast radius will still be useful for it prevents them from dealing full damage.
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Wild Cat
Dutch Time
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Vice Admiral Josh Knight
Vice Admiral
Joined: July 25, 2010
Posts: 56
| Posted: 2010-08-23 16:13
A. Yes to above poster.
B. When are these changes even supposed to take effect?
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2010-08-23 16:16
New tier missiles will come into play as we come to work on the cruiser, dread and station hulls after the fighter system has been tweaked a bit  .
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Vice Admiral Onassi
Vice Admiral
Joined: March 20, 2010
Posts: 44
From: Bridge of the Hot Needle of Inquiry
| Posted: 2010-08-23 18:33
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On 2010-08-23 09:43, Grand Admiral CRAZY45 *XO* wrote:
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On 2010-08-23 03:17, Admiral Killstuff wrote:
Im glad that the admins responded to all the concerns about ICC being tremendously overpowered. Thank you.
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Someone cant recognize sarcasm.
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Well, Theres only two kinds of stuff.. The stuff that kills stuff, and the stuff that get killed.
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Closet Otaku Commanding Komrade
1st Rear Admiral
Joined: June 16, 2005
Posts: 1
From: Here
| Posted: 2010-08-23 18:37
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On 2010-08-23 18:33, Admiral Killstuff wrote:
Quote:
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On 2010-08-23 09:43, Grand Admiral CRAZY45 *XO* wrote:
Quote:
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On 2010-08-23 03:17, Admiral Killstuff wrote:
Im glad that the admins responded to all the concerns about ICC being tremendously overpowered. Thank you.
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.............
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Someone cant recognize sarcasm.
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Indeed, I thought it was patently obvious.
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