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Kluth from the eyes of Ravens |
Fatal Perihelion Chief Marshal Fatal Squadron
Joined: April 15, 2010 Posts: 308
| Posted: 2010-08-13 06:06  
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On 2010-08-13 00:08, Kenny_Naboo wrote:
My comments:
In the limited time I had to play ICC (I played it only about 4 or 5 times in the first week of the Raven/PB switch, then had to fly off on a work trip), well this is what I found.
First off, ICC aren't as weak as what a lot of ppl are claiming. The thing that against K'luth, you should never be flying alone. Come to think of it... flying alone against anyone, anytime is a good way to reduce your lifespan drastically.
It's a numbers game. 1 vs 1, a K'luth dread can never take on an ICC or UGTO dread down. It's just some prestige gain before he has to bail. And when that happens, the ICC/UGTO ship has also gotten his fair share of pres.
K'luths are always most succesful in numbers (as many have said), but which faction isn't? You put 3 UGTO/ICC dreads against 1 Kluth, and all he can do is run. You reverse the situation, and the human ship has to run. Isn't that the mechanics of gameplay?
Playing ICC, you have to know when to quit and run. Unlike K'luths, you have to give yourself a bigger buffer. I'm always prepared when on ICC. If I get jumped by 2 or more dreads and know that I don't stand a chance, I hit Def mode, then F2 to target a safe planet (or gate) and make that jump pronto. No random e-jumps into deep space where they can track me and take me out. I have the luxury of Def mode to last that moment longer to actually do a proper plot.
Also, once a Kluth dread is decloaked, you ICCs have to focus fire on ONE of them. Call the Primary target. Kluth armor is weak. 3 ICC ADs or CDs focusing fire on a single K'luth dread will take him out of the fight pretty damned fast. Even if you are under fire by 2 other Kluths, you keep your focus on that primary target until he gets blown up, or he jumps out, or you take enough damage to warrant a quick escape.
Use your own fleetmates as cover. That's why I said "Stick close to them". If you're the enemy's primary, you can always run behind one of your own teammates to let him absorb some of the hits while you recover, adjust your shielding, or reposition yourself. You're the primary, and your teammate probably hasn't taken a hit yet, so it's wise to spread the damage out. Just remember not to FF him, or take FF by flying into his volley.
Also, I learnt to jump, then recharge my JD to at least 70% before I entered an engagement or go through a gate. That way, I only have under a minute or so before I'm ready to e-jump out if needed.
Perhaps playing Kluth will help you to prepare playing against Kluth.
As for cloak, I found it exciting to try locating K'luth using ping and blindfire. Never once did I complain about "Come out and fight like a man, you lobster!!"
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Best post so far!
Maybe if the ping would show the enemy just half a second longer, that would change much.
Half a second.. that shows how close we are to ballance!
Carefull, dont spoil the game by complaining.
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Marius Falix Grand Admiral
Joined: July 05, 2010 Posts: 268 From: Luyten
| Posted: 2010-08-13 06:11  
May i just say, alot of luth players are vets, they also buy credits... (come back to this)
many of you claim a 1 vs 1 luth will lose. prehaps with stock ships, however most luth have full Damage ENH installed. now i cant say this is unfair as its a legitmate boost but it is very frustrating.
10 seconds then i gotta jump, but naturally they have fast as hell JD recharge times, and their beams hurt you even once uv jumped and are 5k away.
the amount of damage you do with stocks is very fair and strong, yet + enh its rather overkill.
why not engines or anything? srsly this confuses me, why not make it more fun or challenging?
honest question.
_________________ “We give our lives for the lives of Humanity. May you all see better days.”
We are the Falix Brothers...
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Bardiche Chief Marshal
Joined: November 16, 2006 Posts: 1247
| Posted: 2010-08-13 06:47  
Idly, K'Luth have engines that provide a speed bost of nearly 10%, off-hand without testing.
Also idly, I wanted to ask how the Raven feel about Cruisers VS Dreadnoughts on K'Luth; given that the latter has a massive boost in durability with the addition of two AHR slots instead of just one, I'd be interested to see if they share the K'Luth sentiments that flying Cruisers when you can get a Dread just doesn't make much sense.
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Enterprise Chief Marshal Raven Warriors
Joined: May 19, 2002 Posts: 2576 From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2010-08-13 06:55  
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On 2010-08-13 06:47, Bardiche wrote:
Idly, K'Luth have engines that provide a speed bost of nearly 10%, off-hand without testing.
Also idly, I wanted to ask how the Raven feel about Cruisers VS Dreadnoughts on K'Luth; given that the latter has a massive boost in durability with the addition of two AHR slots instead of just one, I'd be interested to see if they share the K'Luth sentiments that flying Cruisers when you can get a Dread just doesn't make much sense.
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Ill fly a Destroyer on Kluth long before I touch a cruiser. They're so much better.
-Ent
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Lark of Serenity Grand Admiral Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002 Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2010-08-13 07:39  
on other kluth classes:
stations: didnt personally fly one, but a kluth player brought out a hive that he claimed he could solo anything but a line station in. talk to Bad Horse for more since he really flew nothing but stations the entire time 0.o
dreads: i flew mainly a siphon in combat. since it had a good spread between torps and beams there wasnt very much UGTO armour swapping could do to counter it. my main impressions of combat were drawn from this: it basically destroys anything in the way. i was also regularly surprised with how quickly i was ready to fight again.
another raven commented "i hope we stay kluth. the scarab and krill are hilarious"
cruisers: i tried the scarab momentarily. this is obviously the one that takes the most skill, since you have to time your mine drop and have a target that youll still be able to use the mines against after. getting pulsed also wasnt very fun =S my main cruiser was the scale. tbh i didnt think to check repair rates and whatnot against one another between classes. id say the scale was closer to what i expected for a hit and run faction: if we brought ECM cover and worked as a team a group of cruisers could take down individual targets amongst a fleet. i'm not sure if it felt legitimately or just comparatively underpowered.
destroyers: the speed and turn rate on these makes getting hit pretty rare, but getting hit hurts like hell. i meant to get another batch of people together to try a dessie rush but it didnt look like we ever had enough people on before our switch back. sorry Jim =( our first experience with them suggested they werent the most effective, but we were flying them against a larger and heavier fleet.
frigate: only frigate i tried was instars for the 3 ECM to help bombing.
@ kenny:
we brought a dictor into the cluster. no one escaped. we killed a lot of people.
_________________ Admiral Larky, The Wolf
Don't play with fire, play with Larky.
Raven Division Command - 1st Division
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DiepLuc Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010 Posts: 1187
| Posted: 2010-08-13 08:35  
Oh, we all know about these. Although there are many dicussions before, seems like a long essay, written in perfect grammar and using complex words, is the only thing that touch the devs' hearts.
The solution to fix the issue is not hard, the crucial decisive fact is if staff REALLY want to change.
I don't like the "uncloak area" around enemy planet. I prefer cloaking drains energy as double fast as active shield, so that a KLuth players can cloak as long as desire, but once uncloak can't hurt anyone.
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Xydes Grand Admiral
Joined: August 07, 2009 Posts: 276 From: England
| Posted: 2010-08-13 09:28  
I have to admit, that you Ravens done a pretty good job. And I thank you for you Valiant Effort.
And (no flaming intended) K'luth is just alittle over-rated in what they do... It doesn't take a genius to figure out what to do as K'luth.
The best way to combat K'luth is:
Have a Scout (Preferably a Veteran in a Scout) Pinging and Beaconing.
Have Dreads (Preferably Veterans in a Dread/ People good at using Dreads) Blind Firing and Pinging.
Have a dictor (All of the above) Keeping close to Dreads. Stop Enemy Ships jump INTO the battle. Away from the Battle.
-Mint
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Kenny_Naboo Marshal Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010 Posts: 3823 From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-08-13 09:58  
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On 2010-08-13 07:39, N'kra The Wolf wrote:
on other kluth classes:
stations: didnt personally fly one, but a kluth player brought out a hive that he claimed he could solo anything but a line station in. talk to Bad Horse for more since he really flew nothing but stations the entire time 0.o
dreads: i flew mainly a siphon in combat. since it had a good spread between torps and beams there wasnt very much UGTO armour swapping could do to counter it. my main impressions of combat were drawn from this: it basically destroys anything in the way. i was also regularly surprised with how quickly i was ready to fight again.
another raven commented "i hope we stay kluth. the scarab and krill are hilarious"
cruisers: i tried the scarab momentarily. this is obviously the one that takes the most skill, since you have to time your mine drop and have a target that youll still be able to use the mines against after. getting pulsed also wasnt very fun =S my main cruiser was the scale. tbh i didnt think to check repair rates and whatnot against one another between classes. id say the scale was closer to what i expected for a hit and run faction: if we brought ECM cover and worked as a team a group of cruisers could take down individual targets amongst a fleet. i'm not sure if it felt legitimately or just comparatively underpowered.
destroyers: the speed and turn rate on these makes getting hit pretty rare, but getting hit hurts like hell. i meant to get another batch of people together to try a dessie rush but it didnt look like we ever had enough people on before our switch back. sorry Jim =( our first experience with them suggested they werent the most effective, but we were flying them against a larger and heavier fleet.
frigate: only frigate i tried was instars for the 3 ECM to help bombing.
@ kenny:
we brought a dictor into the cluster. no one escaped. we killed a lot of people.
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That's a good move. Dictor them while you're dictored yourself.
Anyway regarding the Scarab (that's my favorite ship btw), u are spot on about the difficulty and patience it requires to use OFFENSIVELY. That being the operative word. I alternate between a Scab n a Siphon. Despite my rank, I have not even touched one of those Kluth station deathtraps yet.
For Kluth it is really almost pointless to fly anything less than a cruiser. Lack of firepower and armor, as well as energy ensures that you won't last long in a fight.
I agree w Perihelion. Don't nerf the cloak. Just give the human factions additional tools to use against cloak.
Also, perhaps instead of touching the cloak, we shd look at increasing energy consumption? Or perhaps reducing ECM slots. This cloak thing is a minefield. Get it wrong n u can imbalance the game or faction to the point of being unplayable. In short, it's better to do nothing until you've worked out how to implement it right.
_________________ ... in space, no one can hear you scream.....
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DubStep Santa Marshal
Joined: July 23, 2004 Posts: 80 From: Atlanta GA
| Posted: 2010-08-13 11:10  
other factions need a cloaking detector ship class like the interdictor is to jumpdrives
problem solved
_________________ Oh hello there, you know me, i am that guy with that battle dread that you can't blow up....
NUTS
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Fatal Command (CO) Marshal Fatal Squadron
Joined: November 27, 2002 Posts: 1158 From: over here in New York noticing some ppl are like canoes.....they need to be paddled.
| Posted: 2010-08-13 17:39  
well,havent checked it lately but a few things I remember USED to occur regarding cloak and kluth that I wonder if anyone else has cjecked.
1) Your ship's signature would drop if kluth were close and you would know they were near.still happen?
2) used to be..you could IF you watched,fire on cloaked ships because the starfield had a slight "shimmer" to it when kluth passed by.
3) at the end of the day,all things said and done,best was when you HAD to have ECCM running to detect kluth and they had to have ECM to avoid detection.And yes,that lead to eccm/ecm forts.Big Deal,bomb the crap out of em and they didnt matter.At that time,it made teamwork needed.As game currently is,teamwork is NOT needed,not one thing you want to do requires teamwork anymore.
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Lark of Serenity Grand Admiral Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002 Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2010-08-13 18:38  
ECM forts were a problem because kluth could fire while cloaked. beams coming out of nowhere from 8 dreads = not fun times.
another possible hotfix that could be worth a try would be to make cloak time also affected by hull damage (and i mean like below 30%. sitting at 70% shouldnt do too much, but if youre literally one alpha away from being killed i think cloak should have a bit more trouble saving you).
another thing i miss is being able to see damage through cloak, so seeing a few sparks or the plume of fire floating in space. there was still a chance youd miss because you had to ctrl fire, but it gave you a better chance of actually putting someone out of the fight. it actually made the cat and mouse game between kluth and humans a LOT more interesting: you would both be damaged after the initial encounter, and human would have to spot the little blue light against a starfield of other blue lights. i once took out a siphon at 800gu by sniping it with IC cannons, silly guy stopped moving =) and also stayed around when he shouldnt have... see, THATS fun, and exciting, and challenging, and takes skill on both sides.
_________________ Admiral Larky, The Wolf
Don't play with fire, play with Larky.
Raven Division Command - 1st Division
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Lark of Serenity Grand Admiral Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002 Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2010-08-13 21:02  
A) I wanted to thank those who have contributed constructively to this thread. yay DS community kinda looking like it used to =)
B) Some more anonymous input:
Re; Bardiche asking about other ship classes
to this I would say that kluth cruisers have a very specific roles.
1. to bomb
2. to hunt down dictos
3. to dicto
4. to do hit and run attacks when your totally outnumbered.
I also flew a nymph frigg, a claw dessy, and a Nest station
Nymph- Very fun to fly, and scary as hell. It was designed to take on dessies, cruisers, and support class dreads. Problem targets were scouts, friggies, combat class dreads, assault class dreads, and stations. (it just lacked any kind of damage necessary to cope with the dreads and stations, and could not hit anything smaller than dessy very well.
Claw Dessy- Seemed to be very powerful up front, however it is so severally lacking in energy and armor that it was rendered unusable. If I fired off two volleys and cloaked, I was minus a good bit of energy, and under cloak and charging, energy ticked back uber slow. In an extended confrontation, you would run out of energy far before your destroyed your tgt, and would be forced to come to a complete stop or crawl for several minutes to regain lost power. In this time, icc shields would recharge, or they would scamper away. I prefer the nymph to it.
Nest Station- Very powerful very armored. Two supply drones and one ahr were enough to make me able to solo anything. (1v1) In fleet actions, the station regained armor and hull so fast that just by taking turns uncloaking and firing, two stations were able to hold off 3 ugto stations for a laughable long time. We were eventually drove back. I felt the Nest was far superior to ICC line station and Supply station variants
_________________ Admiral Larky, The Wolf
Don't play with fire, play with Larky.
Raven Division Command - 1st Division
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Mint Ice Cream[+R] Grand Admiral
Joined: December 05, 2009 Posts: 43
| Posted: 2010-08-13 21:18  
About the Nest, I don't think it is that powerful, i agreed it is better than icc LS due to the AHR (super fast armour rep ) but if u use 2 of them facing 3 pro ugto station pilots then taking turn to uncloak won't work unless u can use rep drone while cloaking, they can focus on killing 1 first and thanks to the size and speed of station the chance that their blind fire hit is more than 80% so unless u used 1 of them as a shield again 2 other there is almost no chance for 2 nests to win
in my opinion krill is way better than nest
_________________ -MiC
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Lark of Serenity Grand Admiral Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002 Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2010-08-13 21:30  
some other input on current suggestions:
a cooldown timer on recloaking,
- this is already in place to my understanding, and can be modified by ECCM and ECM. the key problem is that ECCM does not have a big enough effect to warrant running it constantly, thus kluth have no inclination to take ships like the instars which have 3 ECM to offer EW support (especially since ships like the siphon have 2 ECM on them. EW slots really need to be cut down from larger ships to encourage fleet diversity. i would be for cutting them from all dreads in the game, and leaving them on frigates and destroyers. adding EW cruisers would also be kinda neat, but thats just me =P).
a 250-500gu no cloak zone around enemy planets.
- i understand the concept, but i think planet pinging for long durations might be better. having a "no cloak" zone limits kluth ships from making narrow getaways that other factions can do, and as a hit and run faction that seems fairly important. instead, ECCM bases should ping intermittently, with enough time for a missile to reach and strike a kluth ship at around 500gu. perhaps increase planet missile speeds to reduce the amount of time kluth have to stay visible for planet defenses to be worthwhile. generally, upping planet defense capability would be nice too.
targetting laser (heard only hint of this concept, but idea is to take advantage of how beams currently work, where they continue to track the target after firing, and put in a laser with really really low damage but a long firing duration)
- if this is done it might be better not to provide other means of detecting cloak for any long duration (e.g. damage affecting cloak time, or seeing damage through cloak). i kind of like the idea but worry about its effectiveness in practice, and especially which ships will be getting the device and whether this will simply further the need for humans to take scouts while not providing much incentive for kluth to ditch dreads. though theoretically a dessie would be able to survive this a lot easier! as pointed out though kluth dessies are somewhat lacking.
@ kluth dessies specifically:
it might be worthwhile trying out dessies with significant firepower but only slightly improved energy regeneration. the premise being the dessies with their speed and cloak time would be able to quickly hit and run and then use speed rather than armour to stay alive afterwards. of course this is REALLY hard to balance, as was demonstrated the last time we tried it =S but it might be worth another shot? as i said in another post, kluth should have their main combats concentrated in frigates and dessies with other vessel classes taking mostly support roles. i think more attention needs to be paid to making their smaller ships capable of matching dreads but being vulnerable to human destroyers and frigates. one idea would be a heavy reliance on AM torps, since they wouldnt move fast enough to hit dessies but would be great against dreads.
_________________ Admiral Larky, The Wolf
Don't play with fire, play with Larky.
Raven Division Command - 1st Division
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Lark of Serenity Grand Admiral Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002 Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2010-08-13 21:33  
@ mint: krill is stupid =( dunno why it exists
_________________ Admiral Larky, The Wolf
Don't play with fire, play with Larky.
Raven Division Command - 1st Division
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