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[Suggestion] Core Weapon Falloff |
Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
|  Posted: 2010-08-10 11:28
Quote:
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On 2010-08-09 20:22, SpaceAdmiral wrote:
the si only hits stations, and only maybe dreads at max range
the qst can hit station and some dreads at max range
ion cannon can hit stations and dreads at max range, but the max range is greater
the SI is perfect as it is, the krill becoming a 300-600 gu attacker mostly
you can snipe with it, but probably only hit stations |
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When you're paying attention to what's infront of you and a krill uncloaks behind or to the side and fires, chances are you're going to be hit with those SI unless:
You're in a Scout.
You notice it as soon as it uncloaks and turn away.
It's targeting someone else.
You get lucky.
This is generally not an issue with Ions/QST as you see the ship that's firing it approaching, unless they point jump within 100 GU.
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2010-08-10 13:27
I did hear this in a previous post, in that case why does ICC have assault dreads and cruisers?
it doesnt fit with its philosophy
infact ADs can be considered most powerful assault type dreadnaughts, with rotatable shields to maintain fore
im not asking for a nerf to icc or anything, im just pointing something out that follows
"the ship isnt supposed to be there because it conflicts design philosophy"
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2010-08-10 17:15
It's not so much an issue of it going against design philosophy, it's more that it has greater ranged firepower than any comparable ship. An AD does not have the close range firepower of a Siphon, nor does an EAD, but a Krill has greater mid-long range firepower than a BD/CD, and as has been pointed out in this thread already it can rival Battle/Line Stations in damage output.
And if you really want to get technical, ICC having beam based ships can be easily explained if you think about it. There's the Escort DD and Sensor Frigate which both have a large amount of beams, generally for PD use. It's not so much of a stretch to have a Cruiser and DN hull with lots of beams as the AC/AD both work extremely well as PD ships.
[ This Message was edited by: Talien on 2010-08-10 17:15 ]
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Bardiche
Chief Marshal
Joined: November 16, 2006
Posts: 1247
| Posted: 2010-08-10 17:26
I don't mind losing the beams on the AD if you replace it by Ions to fit our design philosophy, really. The AD loses long-range efficiency for close-range efficiency, the Krill deals the brunt of its damage from any engagement range.
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Rebellion
Marshal
Faster than Light
Joined: June 20, 2009
Posts: 730
From: sol
| Posted: 2010-08-10 18:38
Quote:
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On 2010-08-10 17:26, Glaive wrote:
I don't mind losing the beams on the AD if you replace it by Ions to fit our design philosophy, really. The AD loses long-range efficiency for close-range efficiency, the Krill deals the brunt of its damage from any engagement range.
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i wouldent mind it either, More ions the merrier.
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NoBoDx
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 14, 2003
Posts: 784
From: Germany / NRW
| Posted: 2010-08-11 02:38
Quote:
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On 2010-08-10 17:15, Talien wrote:
It's not so much an issue of it going against design philosophy, it's more that it has greater ranged firepower than any comparable ship. An AD does not have the close range firepower of a Siphon, nor does an EAD, but a Krill has greater mid-long range firepower than a BD/CD, and as has been pointed out in this thread already it can rival Battle/Line Stations in damage output.
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and krill / siphon doesn't have the durability an EAD/AD (BD/CD) have, when under fire
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2010-08-11 09:39
They don't need it, they have cloak. Obviously AD/EAD do not have cloak.
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Lithium
Chief Marshal
Joined: June 29, 2003
Posts: 109
| Posted: 2010-08-11 11:18
Krill has 6 SIs front.
If it's OP for long-range, just replace 1 SI to some disrupters.
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2010-08-11 11:25
Nah, remove every core weapon and cannons from krill is the best i think. Make it beam maniac ,very close range and drop its armor to half.
Seriously.
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2010-08-12 07:45
Okay, I'm going to try and put some perspective on the Krill by comparing it to other ships. Do note that this is a pretty anti-krill post, but rather than saying "OMG krill is OP" I'm going to try and explain why it's a bit of an odd one out.
All the factions have similar ship "types," although they won't always share the same layouts. The minelayer frigate, for example, is standard between all factions and does the same thing. K'luth tend to deviate from this a bit more than the norm, but the general principle applies.
So let's look at dread types.
First off, we have the command dreadnaughts. They all do basically the same tasks of bombing, building, and all that jazz.
We then have the "ranged" dreadnaughts, which lob long-ranged death at the foe (obviously). ICC have the missile dread (which is probably the best one of these), UGTO have the carrier dread, and K'luth have the ganglia, I believe. The ganglia isn't all that fantastic at what it does (aside from being essentially immune to return fire), but that's expected from the faction that favours lots of beams rather than missile barrages, and is tempered by its ability to cloak.
Then we have battle dreads. I should probably mention here that I'm moderately sure the mandible is the BD equivalent and the siphon is the AD equivalent, but I didn't get an opportunity to remind myself of the K'luth dreadnaught layouts before I started writing this, so I reserve the right to post a correction when I get the chance to jump in-game and check myself.
Anyway. Battle/combat dreads. These ships have good range, good damage, and balanced armour for the most part. The Mandible looks a lot more like an assault dread than the others, but that's because optimal k'luth ship design consists of a massive frontal beam weapon, so all of their designs are biased in this direction. It's still got cannons and such, though.
Assault dreads. These are the ones with lots of frontal beams, torps, core weapons, and armour, and are designed to zap the snot out of anything that comes close. They pay for this with weak rear armour, sluggish handling, and energy management issues. They're also superdreads, giving them less mobility, more hitpoints, and higher-level devices (if memory serves).
Then we have "special" dreadnaughts, like the Agincourt and the bomber dread. The Agincourt is basically a souped-up carrier dread, and the bomber dread is arguably a souped-up command carrier, or possibly bomber cruiser. Either way, they're essentially support units and are a logical extension of something else.
One should take care to note that they don't really do anything new, though; it's more that they enhance the strengths of their mission-type while accentuating weaknesses. The Agincourt has even more fighters but even less guns than the carrier dread, for example.
If anything, the Krill belongs in the "special" category as an extension of some other role. The other "special" ships aren't superdreads, however.
Let's try and see if the Krill can fit into any of the above categories as an "upgraded" version of something else, bearing in mind K'luth design philosophies.
Command dread: No. I won't insult your intelligence explaining why.
Ranged dread: The other long-range units use missiles, and fire from out of range of enemy ships. Stellar incinerators have a range associated with cannon range, and don't home in. I suppose you could argue that the Krill fits here because 800-odd GU is "long range" for K'luth, but using the logic that K'luth are poor at a distance suggests that perhaps lots of cannons would be a better armament in order to keep its damage output from matching K'luth close-range ships, which (being k'luth's speciality) should be the most damaging, at least over short periods of time.
Also, on a similar note, why should K'luth get two long-range dreads when they're the short-ranged faction?
Battle dreads: The Krill might just fit in here. It's got guns that can reach the combat ranges of these ships and has decent all-round firing arcs, although its weapons have a focus of forward firepower.
Except that the other battle dreads aren't superdreads. Being a superdread gives the krill more hitpoints, higher-level devices, and more space for weapons, which means that it has significantly more potential damage output than a battledread (particularly in the front arc), and it can take more hull damage in return.
Assault dreads: Okay so the above suggests that maybe the Krill is an assault dreadnaught, except that an AD traditionally has very short range aside from a core weapon or two. The Krill's effective range is significantly beyond the effective range of torpedoes, and easily outguns another dreadnaught in a core weapon duel. If the Krill was an upgraded version of an assault-type dread, presumably it would have an even shorter range and even more damage, although currently K'luth ships already push the very boundaries of sensible volley damage. Alternatively, fitting it with lots and lots of torpedoes would give it a longer range than a normal assault ship, but without giving it enough range to hit ships that would normally happily stay out of range of an assault ship.
So, looking at all of the above, the Krill doesn't really fit very well into any of the "standard" layouts. This implies that it's a more "flavourful" ship that fits the general principles of the faction it belongs to.
Except that a hugely over-gunned superdread is probably more the provenance of UGTO rather than K'luth; K'luth do sneaky and lots of damage at close range, rather than having the ability to both blast away from a distance and zap things that get too close.
In fact, K'luth ships are already pretty flavourful in my opinion; they don't really need an extra-k'luthy design that emphasises what they do, because all of their ships are inherently k'luthy in behaviour and tactics.
Thus, to conclude: In my opinion, Krills don't have a place on the K'luth faction due to being rather un-k'luthy. But if they're going to stay, reducing the damage at a distance would pull the Krill back into the design envelope of K'luth ships and turn it into a sort of super-assault-dread-type ship, rather than a kill-everything machine.
I think that's about it. Do bear in mind that the dreads are all going to get a redesign, so it's quite possible that the Krill is going to be changed or phased out regardless of anything said in this thread.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2010-08-12 10:00
The Krill is fundamentally broken, and will be fixed at some point in the future, along with the Ganglia.
They are two ships which should never have been given to the K'luth, unfortunate that they were, but stuff happens. When Jim gets to working on the dreads I'm sure he'll do it justice - just don't expect a long range WTFPWN mobile anymore.
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2010-08-12 10:09
Reducing a weapon's range isnt gonna solve anything . I guess it will make things worst. You see , if you decrease range of SI, you will somehow reduce range of other kluth's dreads core weapon range too. This is what happened when Jack reduced psi range on all kluth ships. Small kluth ships survivebility reduced drasticly.
And if i dont remember wrong , Carrier dread has core weapon. Missile dread can fit Psm which kluth hasnt got any ship nor weapon tech to do so. You are asking why does kluth have 2 long range ship makes me laugh. I think you should redirect question to people on your modlist. We have been arguing about this already for a year . Ganglia and krill doesnt belong to kluth at all. Then again , we believe AD and EAD layouts are way too strong for both factions which arent designed for close combat or in the other words -they are not DEDICATED close range factions to have that kind of ships-.
I can hear most of you saying but a krill or siphon can beat AD or EAD when it is 1 on 1. Thats absolutely right. But there are some facts I can NOT finish without mentioning. When i duel in krill or siphon against one of this ships, it will take quite 10 mins to win the duel. Means cloak , regain energy, wait your AHR to patch up your armor and do this until enemy is dead. Now think a scenario of 3 ad against 3 krills. I bet 100k credits 3 AD will have a chance of 70% winning this battle.
Also i need to say Kluth stations are way too weak against AD,EAD and other faction's stations REGARDLESS of enhancements. A combat dread or a battle dread all alone can kill a NEST in a duel if both side agrees about no time limit.
[ This Message was edited by: Pakhos on 2010-08-12 10:16 ]
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2010-08-12 12:29
Quote:
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On 2010-08-12 10:00, BackSlash wrote:
The Krill is fundamentally broken, and will be fixed at some point in the future, along with the Ganglia.
They are two ships which should never have been given to the K'luth, unfortunate that they were, but stuff happens. When Jim gets to working on the dreads I'm sure he'll do it justice - just don't expect a long range WTFPWN mobile anymore.
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Maybe we should change the AD too; a close range ship doesn't really fit within the design phiiosphy of a faction that is all about range.
-Ent
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Lithium
Chief Marshal
Joined: June 29, 2003
Posts: 109
| Posted: 2010-08-12 12:40
To Gejaheline.
Krill is not a superdread.
And EAD and AD have no weakness on rear armor. Actually only Siphon has rear armor weakness.
Battle Dread ranged weapons loadout
Fore: 2 QSTs, 2 missiles, 4 fighters, 3 heavy cannons, 5 cannons
Left Right: 2 QSTs, 1 missile, 4 fighters, 3 heavy cannons, 5 cannons
Krill ranged weapons loadout
Fore: 6 SIs, 2 cannons
Left Right: 3 SIs, 1 cannon
Battle Dread is still good compared to Krill I think.
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2010-08-12 12:45
you say the carrier dread has a core weapon, thats because its basically a BD which gave up HALF of its cannons/cores for 2 fighters, 2 missles, and 2 EW.
You can tell how effective a carrier is when you see all new admirals instantly ditch it.
Also, i believe the ganglia can equip psms.
So you "made your point krill is good at "long" rang"
so now we "nerf" both kluth and ugto cores?
or do the sensible thing such as tweak that problem ship?
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