| Author |
[Suggestion] Core Weapon Falloff |
Bardiche
Chief Marshal
Joined: November 16, 2006
Posts: 1247
|  Posted: 2010-08-09 17:23
A few days earlier while in the lobby, I saw Light-of-Aurora remark the following: (quotation not verbatim)
"It's nice to have devastating power at range."
When prompted what he was talking about, he clarified that he referred to the K'Luth faction's Krill, the most recently added ship.
This suggestion is spurred on by this comment, and long-standing issues the community has had with the addition of said ship.
From the factional descriptions, K'Luth are mentioned to be a "close-range faction" which is specialised in "hit-and-run" strategies. Mostly, following those two descriptions, the Krill fails to meet the first one, namely the focus on "close-range".
A developer said it better than I could. The Krill has "devastating power at range", a trait more ideally associated with the ICC than the K'Luth. In this way, the Krill presents itself as a design mistake - it clashes directly with the K'Luth design philosophy.
Normally, one would expect a ship that falls outside the general factional designs to be there as a utility ship, and inferior to other ships of its kind in that particular aspect. But the Krill excells at long-range, undisputably beating the Elite Assault Dreadnought and Assault Dreadnought at ranged combat, and there is no one who questions the direct damage output between Missile Dreadnoughts or Carrier Dreadnoughts when contrasted to the Krill.
This is a serious design mistake as I said earlier. I gave the matter some thought and I recall that a few developers were under the impression that Core Weapons had damage falloff. This was demonstrably not true, but here my proposition.
I propose Core Weapons be given damage falloff, excepting of course the ICC Ion Cannon. The ICC's shtick is, after all, superiority at range, not with range, and having uncontested superiority at range would fit in with the factional design.
As necessary, due to the precarious balance between UGTO and ICC fleets, I feel that Quantum Singularity Torpedoes could also be excluded, depending on the developers' tastes: I can understand if there is reluctance to hand ICC complete dominance of the ranged scene with no parallel.
But I insist that the K'Luth SI be given this treatment. Historically, no K'Luth vessel engages from ranges greater than 500gu, with the exception of the Ganglia and Krill; the former is meant to be a missile alternative to the Mandible and falls within expectations of operating in that way, and utilises no core weapons. The Krill does.
This change would therefore affect mostly the Krill, assuming damage falloff permits engagements within 500gu to still utilise its damage as best as possible (I am unaware of it is possible to implement falloff starting from x range, or if falloff is always linear) - if the Stellar Incinerator loses its brutal efficiency at long-range, it would pull the Krill back into its factional design of a close-range faction not meant for stand-off warfare.
It would put the Ganglia back on top as the K'Luth's ranged warship (or perhaps the Krill continues to serve this purpose, albeit in lesser capability), and does not necessitate a re-design of the Krill other than its adjustment to damage output in the form of damage falloff.
Lore-wise, Stellar Incinerators appear to be large fireballs, and dissipating heat after a long distance travelled does not at all seem absurd.
I hope that others will be able to provide their views on this matter, without regard for my faction or their own, and review the idea with as little personal bias as is possible.
It is also my sincerest hope that the developers will give this issue some thought and reconsider the Krill's excellence at range.
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NoBoDx
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 14, 2003
Posts: 784
From: Germany / NRW
| Posted: 2010-08-09 17:47
um, SIs have a max range of ~800 gu its not realy long range
if the krill loose some fire-power over range, it should get more fire-power in close range, just to compensate
[ This Message was edited by: NoBoDx on 2010-08-09 17:49 ]
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Bardiche
Chief Marshal
Joined: November 16, 2006
Posts: 1247
| Posted: 2010-08-09 17:55
My point is, Nobodx, that there is no ship bar the Krill that can dish out that much damage with a single volley at 800gu range. The UGTO Battle Dreadnought and Elite Assault Dreadnought are not able to do this. To defeat a Krill, an Assault Dreadnought or Elite Assault Dreadnought need to advance in close; this is a weakness in design because the K'Luth are supposed to be masters at close-range.
"Close the distance" should not be the way to outdamage a K'Luth vessel, excepting perhaps the Ganglia as it is specifically designed for ranged warfare (and likely the black sheep of the K'Luth faction as a result).
There is nothing wrong with the Krill's ability to deal close-range damage: it does so devastatingly well. I merely submit that K'Luth should not, at any point, remark that they have "devastating ranged firepower", under whatever circumstance you would enjoy.
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NoBoDx
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 14, 2003
Posts: 784
From: Germany / NRW
| Posted: 2010-08-09 18:39
every ship, except stations, is able to avoid a SI-volley at any range >600gu, if the player is aware of the ship fireing
coming along, the SIs, while being painful, are still the weakest core-weapons of all factions (afaik they have about 50-60% of the damage from both bullets from the ICC-ion cannon)
for the krill:
a) super-dread-> superior to normal dreads
b) avaible to luth-players at the same time as battle / linen-stations for UGTO / ICC-players with similar firepower ( i think they have something around 5-6 core-weapons for each direction)
and badge wise it have the same requirements as command-stations (colony) -> i think it is gold-star + bronze privateer
c) a krill able to realy snipe need to equip just range-enhancement
luth players get their first dreads (mandy + ganglia) at (i think) va
- mandy is the close-combat-ship, with deadly firepower at point-blank
- gang is the ranged-combat-ship, with "deadly" firepower at range (about 700-1200gu)
- the siphon is a upgraded mandy (FA) with more SIs, stronger ruptors (i think switched some normal for assault ones)
- the krill is a "upgrade" for the gang, boosting firepower, but reducing the effective range
back to core weapons:
- like i said SIs are 0-~800gu
-- have the least damage
-- but the min/max values are rather close
-- bullets travel at medium speed difficult to hit dreads > 600gu
- ICC Ion cannon are 0-~1400gu (at least i think so)
-- a single bullet does less damage than a SI, but the cannon shoot twice
-- the min/max value is realy wide, because each of the bullet can miss
-- the bulets itself travel fast, and its difficult to dodge them in cruisers at ranges below 600gu (dreads around 800gu)
-UGTO Quantum torpedos are something around 0-1200gu (i think)
-- they are more damaging than SI, but less than both IC-bullets
-- the min/max value are wider than SIs, but less than IC-shots
-- bullet-speed: theyre rather slow
the information on damage/ min/max values were somewhere in the forum, but cant say exatly, where the were
so basicaly you want to nerf the least damaging core-weapon, while keeping the most damaging ones as they are, because most of the luth are close combat ships ?
edit says:
Quote:
| My point is, Nobodx, that there is no ship bar the Krill that can dish out that much damage with a single volley at 800gu range. The UGTO Battle Dreadnought and Elite Assault Dreadnought are not able to do this. To defeat a Krill, an Assault Dreadnought or Elite Assault Dreadnought need to advance in close; this is a weakness in design because the K'Luth are supposed to be masters at close-range. |
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Krill is on the same level as battle stations (only faster, but more vulnerable), damage wise, and rank/badge-wise
[ This Message was edited by: NoBoDx on 2010-08-09 18:45 ]
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2010-08-09 18:51
Before we continue here, I have two things to mention:
Firstly, there doesn't seem to be any justification for an upgraded version of a ranged-combat ship for a short-ranged faction.
Secondly, the Stellar Incinerator's damage is sufficiently randomised that it has the potential to be both the most- and least-damaging core weapon.
Thirdly, even if it was the weakest core weapon, k'luth are the only faction with a ship that carries core weapons as its main armament. Having huge numbers of them compensates somewhat, methinks.
Too tired to write a decent essay on this right now. I shall be more constructive Soon™
[ This Message was edited by: Gejaheline on 2010-08-09 18:52 ]
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Marius Falix
Grand Admiral
Joined: July 05, 2010
Posts: 268
From: Luyten
| Posted: 2010-08-09 19:34
you are aware the Hive has the same requirements as the siphon yet no badges as im aware...
i can use the hive but not the support station :S
[ This Message was edited by: Marius Falix on 2010-08-09 19:35 ]
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Bardiche
Chief Marshal
Joined: November 16, 2006
Posts: 1247
| Posted: 2010-08-09 19:36
For the sake of argument, keeping in mind that I have no desire to convince players of my point of view and merely appeal to developers, I'll still respond to you and point out where you make errors in observation.
Quote:
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On 2010-08-09 18:39, NoBoDx wrote:
every ship, except stations, is able to avoid a SI-volley at any range >600gu |
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It is not the issue whether or not a ship can evade. Theoretically any weapon bar lasers is evadable, and the precise range does not matter. ICC's weapons have no falloff even at 1,200 range but they suffer problems with hitting the target more than half the time. This does not equate to "ICC's cannons need a buff", and in no way serves as an argument to propose that a weapon with low accuracy from its maximum or near-maximum range should be benefited with additional firepower.
Quote:
| for the krill:
a) super-dread-> superior to normal dreads |
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The Elite Assault Dreadnought and ICC Assault Dreadnought, as well as Command Dreadnought and Command Carrier are all classified as "Super-dreadnought" hulls. In a similar way, the Siphon is classified as a super-dreadnought. Following this argument, one would argue that both Command ships should come close to the Krill's damage output, but they have difficulty rivalling a Cruiser's damage output. The classification of hull is no indication of the strength the ship should have.
Quote:
| b) avaible to luth-players at the same time as battle / linen-stations for UGTO / ICC-players with similar firepower ( i think they have something around 5-6 core-weapons for each direction)
and badge wise it have the same requirements as command-stations (colony) -> i think it is gold-star + bronze privateer |
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If you put it into perspective, the Krill loses some firepower compared to these two, but gains in two important perks: maneuvrability and jump drive speed. Why does this serve as an argument to justify its power? The Command Stations have similar requirements and, again, they do not output the same damage. Badge and rank classifications are again no promise to uncontested firepower, and they should not be used as an excuse to mount Station-rivalling firepower on a Dreadnought.
It is already crass enough that you say they have "similar firepower" on a Dreadnought, a sure enough sign that there is indeed something wrong with the Krill's design. By your own admission it rivals the ICC and UGTO Battle Stations, so it underlines that, ranged, it deals too much damage for a close-ranged faction.
Quote:
| c) a krill able to realy snipe need to equip just range-enhancement |
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This goes for all factions. The underlined message here is the maximum range Krill have not only exceeds that of its regular combat ships, it does so at no penalty to the ship whatsoever. Krill breaks the K'Luth design philosophy, and it is enabled by the game's current mechanics. Proper design does not include a ship that falls out of the faction's design philosophy with no sacrifice to it whatsoever - where the ICC Assault Dreadnought disagrees with the design philosophy, it appropriately sacrifices range to permit this, whereas the K'Luth Krill is still effective at range.
Quote:
| luth players get their first dreads (mandy + ganglia) at (i think) va |
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Idly, they get those at Admiral, but that is neither here nor there.
Quote:
| back to core weapons:
- like i said SIs are 0-~800gu
-- have the least damage
-- but the min/max values are rather close
-- bullets travel at medium speed difficult to hit dreads > 600gu |
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As Gejaheline pointed out, the min-max values for SI are advertised to be the broadest, so that it is simultaneously the weakest, and strongest of core weapons. I have no access to the precise numbers, so I'll rely on what the developers said on the matter.
Quote:
| - ICC Ion cannon are 0-~1400gu (at least i think so)
-- a single bullet does less damage than a SI, but the cannon shoot twice
-- the min/max value is realy wide, because each of the bullet can miss
-- the bulets itself travel fast, and its difficult to dodge them in cruisers at ranges below 600gu (dreads around 800gu) |
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Ions do pretty reliable damage, have 1280 maximum range and with two bullets do the least damage per volley. Yes, it's flabbergasting but true, the Ion Cannon does the least damage-per-volley of all core weapons.
It also has the lowest re-load time I believe, which means their Damage Over Time is superior to either of the other two. Keep in mind that this is kept in check by burst damage being high on the other two factions: it matters little if your damage over five minutes is better than the other two if you don't stay alive for that long. In that respect, it is balanced, but I am willing to accept the ICC Ion Cannon be given a longer reload time if it becomes necessary.
Quote:
| -UGTO Quantum torpedos are something around 0-1200gu (i think)
-- they are more damaging than SI, but less than both IC-bullets
-- the min/max value are wider than SIs, but less than IC-shots
-- bullet-speed: theyre rather slow |
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UGTO Quantum Torpedoes are faster than SIs as I recall, and do the most damage of any Core Weapon reliably. They are stronger than both Ion Cannon bullets combined.
Quote:
| so basicaly you want to nerf the least damaging core-weapon, while keeping the most damaging ones as they are, because most of the luth are close combat ships ? |
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In other words, I want to see the second-strongest core weapon be given a range penalty to fit it into the design of its faction, being a close-ranged faction. Enabled with a device to grant them the means to close distance with little peril to themselves provided average combat situations, I do not find this proposal to be either absurd, or unbalanced.
As you'll recall, I also suggested the strongest core weapon to be affected in a similar way but expressed concern that it would make ICC uncontested at range, which may not be on the developers' agenda.
Quote:
| Krill is on the same level as battle stations (only faster, but more vulnerable), damage wise, and rank/badge-wise |
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Precisely. My point is that no faction, and least of all the close-range faction not known for their ranged capabilities, should have a Dreadnought capable of pumping out Battle Station damage from 600+ range.
Mind that, no, I do not mind if the Krill pumps out that damage figure from up-close. That would be in-line with the design philosophy of the K'Luth and there are no complaints from this side vis-a-vis its damage output.
Merely, there is a problem with the range at which this vessel does it that is completely incompatible with what all other K'Luth ships bar the Ganglia are built around. And the Ganglia is, as said, the black sheep of the K'Luth fleet: so why should the Krill be considered their ranged warship, rivalling a Station's damage output from a player-point-of-view?
[ This Message was edited by: Glaive on 2010-08-09 19:38 ]
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2010-08-09 19:41
May I remind players that personal attacks, useless replies and general rubbish posts in beta will result in them being removed, or the topic locked.
Also, this is an interesting idea for K'luth core's.
Thank you.
[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash on 2010-08-09 19:42 ]
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SpaceAdmiral
Grand Admiral
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 1005
| Posted: 2010-08-09 20:22
well Ion cannon already hits dessies at 500 gu,
so when a si or qst finally manages to hit a dessie, the falloff would make it meaningless
i hop into a gunboat, ad jumps 500 from me, i am going max speed, evasive manuevers, and roughly perpendicular to evade fire, and i get hit
the icc dessie, can go almost straight at an ead and dodge the qsts
the si only hits stations, and only maybe dreads at max range
the qst can hit station and some dreads at max range
ion cannon can hit stations and dreads at max range, but the max range is greater
the SI is perfect as it is, the krill becoming a 300-600 gu attacker mostly
you can snipe with it, but probably only hit stations
also, ion cannon should have fall off if other cores do, you can already hit other factions before they can use cores, save for cloaked luth, and now you will also out burst damage us until what? 400 gu like pcannons?
then proceed to have higher dps?
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2010-08-10 01:15
Well i didnt read all the replies on this thread , just bard's first post.
I would like to say , I agree on krill with bard. It is way too stronge at the mid-long range. However krills counter part ships are way too stronger than krill at close range.
As stated before , a HCL at 100 gu make more damage than Assault ruptor at same distance. Again , hcl has a falloff at long range~limit and Assault ruptor has no falloff effect.
It's been over a year, we asked devs to nerf the krill already. Because it is a ship of endless topic. I suggest krill to be a only beam ship with alot of assault ruptors and realy low armor. Maybe half of the armor it has right now. But dont forget to tweak kluth beams against human's.
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Sixkiller
Marshal
Courageous Elite Commandos
Joined: May 11, 2005
Posts: 1786
From: Netherlands
| Posted: 2010-08-10 03:17
Quote:
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On 2010-08-09 18:39, NoBoDx wrote:
[.......]
Krill is on the same level as battle stations (only faster, but more vulnerable), damage wise, and rank/badge-wise
[ This Message was edited by: NoBoDx on 2010-08-09 18:45 ]
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So basicly, you have a Battle Station, fitted into a Dreadnought, that can cloak and kill you from range.
I think this is pretty much the problem.
Edit: Also, i dont entirely agree what Pakhos. I think the beams are fine. Kluth are strong at range over 100gu, and i think the normal attack distance would be more like 200, any range where your beams can hit, and your SI's/cannons would surely hit, and hopefully your AM torps to if you hit a big ship.
Tough this does not mean his point isnt true, the Krill might be to weak at close range against assault class dreads, i dont really know this. But if it is, i think it would be best to fix this by increasing the amount of lasers on the Krill, rather then increase the lasers damage.
[ This Message was edited by: Sixkiller on 2010-08-10 03:24 ]
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NoBoDx
Grand Admiral
Joined: October 14, 2003
Posts: 784
From: Germany / NRW
| Posted: 2010-08-10 04:05
Quote:
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On 2010-08-10 03:17, Sixkiller wrote:
Quote:
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On 2010-08-09 18:39, NoBoDx wrote:
[.......]
Krill is on the same level as battle stations (only faster, but more vulnerable), damage wise, and rank/badge-wise
[ This Message was edited by: NoBoDx on 2010-08-09 18:45 ]
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So basicly, you have a Battle Station, fitted into a Dreadnought, that can cloak and kill you from range.
I think this is pretty much the problem.
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i didnt say its a BS in a dread, i'd say, its a dread with core-weapon firepower similar to Battle-/Line-Stations and Nests
you lack their hull-/armor-strength, their 360° fireing-arc, their repair-possibiliys, their survival under enemy fire
but you gain ~10gu max speed
~~~~
btw, requesting a search for forum its difficult to find something
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-08-10 04:46
Hasn't the SI been hit by the nerf bat recently?
Max range is now 800gus.
I can agree with reducing the SI range to match that of the PSI cannon, if only if its damage were made more consistently high. Before you start protesting, I would say it's only fair. You take something away, you give something in return.
We've all heard this talk about design philosophy and the K'luth being a short ranged, hit and run faction. But one cannot follow a philosophy to a T all of the time. Makes no sense, semantically speaking.
The Ganglia doesn't adhere to this philosophy. Should it then be removed?
Should the ICC have all its beams removed then, since beams are (in this game) short ranged?
In every faction, there will always be the one or two odd ships that will fall outside the faction's philosophy.
So what's the problem with the Krill here?
Simple. It's the number of SIs that it carries isn't it?
So what are the solutions that will end the QQ on this matter?
- Reduce the number of SIs on the Krill, and replace them with other weaps like the heavy PSI or plasma?
- Reduce the range of the SI, and increase its damage consistency?
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-08-10 05:20
Quote:
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On 2010-08-10 01:15, Pakhos wrote:
Well i didnt read all the replies on this thread , just bard's first post.
I would like to say , I agree on krill with bard. It is way too stronge at the mid-long range. However krills counter part ships are way too stronger than krill at close range.
As stated before , a HCL at 100 gu make more damage than Assault ruptor at same distance. Again , hcl has a falloff at long range~limit and Assault ruptor has no falloff effect.
It's been over a year, we asked devs to nerf the krill already. Because it is a ship of endless topic. I suggest krill to be a only beam ship with alot of assault ruptors and realy low armor. Maybe half of the armor it has right now. But dont forget to tweak kluth beams against human's.
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Therein lies the problem, Pakky.
First. K'luths aren't supposed to be ranged warriors!
But then again if a K'luth gets too near to a human ship, they will also become toast due to their weak armor and also the human's strong PDs and cannons.
It's a no man's land if you ask me.
However, IMO, I would say that the optimal engagement range for K'luths is 200 to 500 gus. A smart K'luth would first use a bit of range to weaken his opponent before closing in to finish off the job with his array of ruptors.
400 gus, that's the magic number. PSIs, Plasmas, and SIs away.
So perhaps the SI's range should match the PSI at about 600 or so. Stabilize the randomness of the damage a bit more.
If, at 600, the other players are still complaining about "design philosophy", then I don't know what else to give them except the kitchen sink.
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Marius Falix
Grand Admiral
Joined: July 05, 2010
Posts: 268
From: Luyten
| Posted: 2010-08-10 10:13
Quote:
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On 2010-08-10 05:20, Kenny_Naboo wrote:
First. K'luths aren't supposed to be ranged warriors!
But then again if a K'luth gets too near to a human ship, they will also become toast due to their weak armor and also the human's strong PDs and cannons.
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right i find the opposite is true.
ever get close to a luth ship ur asking to be boiled alive (by a lobster... ironic no?) and the ganglia is the equiv of an MD altho not as strong most likely however you have cloak -_- which does make up for it as you can move to ur intended destination uncontended, fire, relocate before being jumped by a bunch of dreads.
MD's are allways visible and are almost allways targeted first by the first opportunist to appear.
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