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Bombs, Beacons, and... Bacon? |
Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
|  Posted: 2010-08-09 17:48
"bombing, building, are all support roles,"
fixed for kluth
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Sixkiller
Marshal
Courageous Elite Commandos
Joined: May 11, 2005
Posts: 1786
From: Netherlands
| Posted: 2010-08-09 18:24
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On 2010-08-09 15:15, Talien wrote:
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On 2010-08-09 12:31, Necrotic wrote:
prestige gain is high but there really isnt a death penalty either. If u jump a station in to a enemy fleet u can probably do enough dmaage and kamakazi damage on ur death to get positive prestige from throwing away a station. Pres loss should be increased to the point where it used to be. When we had to work t get the ships and ranks some of us worked years for. With the pretige gain so high and the death penalty useless. You watch in 6 months practicly everyone in the game will be cheif marshal. Its alot easier and better for the game if the pace was slowed down alot.
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I completely agree with this, it's completely ridiculous to watch people STILL throw away Stations, and even DNs by "suicide jumping" an enemy fleet and laughing about how they still gained prestige even though they died in less than 20 seconds. At least the resource system stopped them from repeatedly scrapping the destroyed one and spawning a fresh one.
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Last time i tried that, it didnt work. So unless combat pres got nerfed recently (and i dont think it did...) this isnt entirely true.
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SPaRTaN Z
Chief Marshal
Joined: June 26, 2009
Posts: 235
| Posted: 2010-08-09 21:14
If we was to half Combat Pres,. and double everything else it would make bombing/supply/building worth doing again.
To have the other jobs earning so little prestige means that no-one wants to do it,. ..
I spose on the other hand there is grouping now,. but if combat pres doesn't change from how it is now then people are still gonna want to stay in their stations and dreads.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-08-09 22:55
That's prob the reason why I don't bother to bomb and build much, even as K'luth, unless absolutely necessary.
1) Pres gains are minimal for such tedium
2) Combat pres is much easier to gain
3) Combat pres loss is minimal (though that hasn't stopped me from trying hard not to die... just to pad the K/D ratio  )
You can reduce combat pres, sure.
But at the same time, you need to make bombing pres come to at least 80% of combat pres so that it becomes a viable alternative to combat.
Ditto that for building, supping. They need to mean something other than just the "satisfaction" of helping your team out. Something tangible, that's what I mean.
Question: Is DS primarily about ship to ship combat, and how much so?
I'm sure that the game is meant to be more than just a ship-to-ship spacebar mashfest.
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Krim {C?}
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: June 24, 2002
Posts: 362
From: Boston MA
| Posted: 2010-08-10 02:01
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Question: Is DS primarily about ship to ship combat, and how much so?
I'm sure that the game is meant to be more than just a ship-to-ship spacebar mashfest.
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Ship to ship combat is a means to an end. The goal is ultimatly to "win" and by win generally that means killing your enemy and capturing thier planets. Part of a problem with the MV is a lack of clearly defined goals to "win"
but bombing is so hard these days, and tranny rushing is QQ'ed to death. So... the end result, skirmish after skirmish, fleet comes out of gate, enemy fleet attacks, or falls back to nearest planet. Ship to Ship combat, blah blah blah. It does get a little boring at times.
Darkspace needs a real set of conditions to "win" and there needs to be a good reason to win, some kind of reward, it's useless just to capture planets. This is because you know in the end the planet will simply be recaptured by the next day or two.
I heard someone throwing around a new idea for how the planet capture system may work in the future, draining "planet health" by shear numbers, bombing in turn would help drain the health, as would dropping troops. I like this idea alot, but as fresh as an idea it may sound, it still lacks a tangable goal to strive for. Capturing planets still doesn't net you a "win" Prestige yes... but most of us who have been playing for a long time don't care about prestige. I know I don't, once you hit a certain rank it doesn't matter so much anymore.
We need a goal in mind, we need a mission to complete in Darkspace, or Ship to ship combat is all we're gonna have.
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Siginau
Fleet Admiral
Pitch Black
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 72
| Posted: 2010-08-10 03:20
what darkspace needs is rewards for controlling territory, ways to gain pres by simply holding planets or somesuch the more you hold the more you get of something or other.
EVE has minerals in 0.0 that give sick money something like that aswell maybe?
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-08-10 04:07
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On 2010-08-10 03:20, Siginau wrote:
what darkspace needs is rewards for controlling territory, ways to gain pres by simply holding planets or somesuch the more you hold the more you get of something or other.
EVE has minerals in 0.0 that give sick money something like that aswell maybe?
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Credits won't be the way to go, 'cos that's the main source of income for DS, and is mainly used for player's personal purchase.
Nah. The rewards will need to be applied, or to reward, at the fleet or faction level. This is where an economy comes in, and EVE, despite all its flaws shines at this. Hell, even a second rate shooter sim like Jumpgate has some sort of economy going.
Hopefully the new planetary interaction will also come with some kind of economy based on materiel or resources. Planets and territory ought to mean something. For example, if you lose a Terran, you should feel a hit.... like in losing the ability to spawn a station or something like that.
The perhaps ppl will fight tooth and nails for that strategic planet, instead of going "Meh, that's OK. We'll cap it back tomorrow. Need to get my beauty sleep. Va va voom...."
Edit: Now I've been thinking, what could we need?
Resources is already sort of a currency system, so there you have your basic building block for an economy. And other raw materials like Metals, Heavy metals, etc... We could bring them back in again.
Not as in needing them as pre-requisite for building certain ships... How about converting them to resources instead? Different materials have different value in resources when "refined".
Eg: 1 metal = 100 res, but 1 urdanium may produce 20000 res?
And these have to be refined in proper facilities.
Perhaps what we can do is to introduce more structures or space plats like refineries, factories, etc etc where there raw materials can be refined into resources?
Personally I vote for more plats.
Why? Structures can be bombed, and capped when the planet is capped....
But plats make it interesting. You can destroy a plat in space much easier than you can a planet, so you need to defend yours.
A plat can also be captured and then towed away from the planet it is orbiting.... ie. stolen. 
Interesting?
I would say, start small with ideas that are easier to implement within the current system. While it's good to think big; big dreams often take time to realize.
[ This Message was edited by: Kenny_Naboo on 2010-08-10 05:40 ]
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2010-08-10 12:45
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On 2010-08-10 02:01, Krim {C?} wrote:
I heard someone throwing around a new idea for how the planet capture system may work in the future, draining "planet health" by shear numbers, bombing in turn would help drain the health, as would dropping troops. I like this idea alot, but as fresh as an idea it may sound, it still lacks a tangable goal to strive for. Capturing planets still doesn't net you a "win" Prestige yes... but most of us who have been playing for a long time don't care about prestige. I know I don't, once you hit a certain rank it doesn't matter so much anymore.
We need a goal in mind, we need a mission to complete in Darkspace, or Ship to ship combat is all we're gonna have.
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I've noticed planet capping is used to provoke combat and maybe give a place to retreat to in hostile territory. That's all planets are good for: provoking combat and providing temporary depots or defenses.
The only other times I've seen planets capped is when sheer boredom hits and there's enough players to do it, and then entire systems start getting capped.
But still, even when an entire system is capped, what benefit is there for the capping faction? A few shipyards maybe? A few extra places to spawn?
I know people hate when this is brought up, but when we had modding there was at least reason to go capping enemy planets, because you might capture their tech to use. I'm not saying bring that back, I'm saying there was a reason back then to cap planets other than to provoke combat or out of sheer boredom. Now we have no reason beyond temporary reasons.
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
| Posted: 2010-08-11 08:54
I think there should be a tweak in sensor and def level 1.
- Off I available at 50 tech, work till 40 tech; 2 workers; 15 power. Off II available at 85 tech, work till 75 tech; 4 workers; 20 power.
- Hydrid I available at 40 tech, work till 30 tech; 3 workers; 10 power. Hydrid II available at 75 tech, work till 65 tech; 5 worker; 15 power.
- Bomb I available at 30 tech, work till 20 tech; 1 workers; 20 power. Bomb II build at 65 tech, work till 55 tech. 3 worker, 25 power.
- Sensor build at 60 tech, work till 50 tech.
I don't like the current requirements, it allows players making use of Hyrid II and bomb I, plus sensor.
Quote:
| Sens wrote:
Beaconing, bombing, building, supply, and electronic warfare are all support roles, hence the implementation of groups (1). Having just one experienced player in either one of those roles can dramatically increase the efficiency of a fleet in combat. (2) |
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I think (2) correct and (1) is wrong.
No need to discuss about (2).
In facts, combat and bombing are the implementation of groups. Beaconing, building and supply are usually acts of individuals. It's easy to check:
- You can't win by beacon scouts and A dread, but you can win by a scout and dreadS. Same with supply.
- OMG, 2 engi build the same planet?! The higher rank shall lock it for sure.
- However bombing is not always done by a group. Simply raze the planet when nobody protects it then bomb will accomplish the job.
Quote:
| BackSlash wrote:
Most likely will be lowering prestige gained from combat again by a small amount. |
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This solution only slow down prestige gain progress a bit, it still doesn't encourage people to do other things. Isn't it odd to see someone make to FA purely via combat? There is no way to get higher class when you fail an object in school, same with military. And here at DS you can get higher level by the sum prestige of all subjects, so you have the chance to avoid subject you dislike. So sanguine?
I think it's better to low combat pres AND increase prestige gain by other actions a bit.
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Malorn
1st Rear Admiral
Joined: December 11, 2003
Posts: 42
From: USA Eastern Time
| Posted: 2010-10-18 22:05
Was going to reply, but it got offtopic and long, made a new thread.
http://darkspace.net/index.htm?module=forums.php&page=/viewtopic.php?topic=50128&forum=36&0
Have fun guys, glad to see this under debate.
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Coeus
Grand Admiral
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: March 22, 2006
Posts: 2815
From: Philly
| Posted: 2010-10-18 22:20
Last reply was over two months ago... good job.
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