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Coeus
Grand Admiral
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: March 22, 2006
Posts: 2815
From: Philly
|  Posted: 2010-06-14 17:33
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ICC defense:
I haven't popped in to check def mode just yet, but im hearing some intriguing reports.
A) a CD versus a TC, CD didnt even get hull damage
B) a line station versus an UGTO SS, the line station lost despite def mode being on.
so... yeah, somethings up, but i cant say what. def mode is OP in some cases but not enough in others?
i think a better fix would be def mode to be a ship item that drains energy completely and maxes shields, but keeps draining energy until it has recharged, which should take a long time. i would also want to see a simple increase in shield HP over def mode being in place. adding game mechanics doesnt create balance, it just adds more issues. better to toy with existing systems then resort to additions
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LS loses to a Supply Station... theres a problem.
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2010-06-14 18:18
more of a problem is that 2 LS, a MD and a HC lost to a SS because he had a depot planet... but anyways
the factions are absurdly close to being balanced. if u go play scenario this is clear. but, in MV, tactics + enhancements + larger numbers compound the small discrepencies that do exist.
kluth need better protection from being found, but when they are found they should have more trouble getting away. being found should be like losing all your shields on ICC - should take the same amount of work and make it just as likely youre going to die. its their principle defense, armour is there as a holdover from a period when cloak was much less useful, im not opposed to it staying there but if cloak gets better armour should be balanced against it. they also need a speed and damage buff but an energy nerf of some sort, so that they are actually hit and run.
ICC need to be able to hurt kluth without resorting to spamming ADs and LS and hoping there arent more kluth than ICC on. our ADs are probably a bit heavy in firepower to be honest, strictly looking at ICC as a whole. if the other factions get work done AD should be stripped down of weapons a bit and more def added.
UGTO actually seems to be alright, although i would cut a bit of energy and firepower from one or two higher class ships. the major issue here is the absurd number of depots =P
granted, this is all from my understanding that
Kluth = hit and run fighting style, high offense low defense, small staying power. particularly can sneak up on you.
ICC = long range fighting style, high defense low offense, wear down the enemy through high staying power. particularly is difficult to return fire to at long range but doesnt have much punching power in close
UGTO = moderate offense moderate defense, can break down high def because can survive low offense and defeat high offense by having just enough defense, slug-it-out fighting style. particularly aims to kill subsystems and disable enemy ships.
if the devs have a different goal in mind itd be a good idea to share it so people dont have to guess at what youre aiming to do.
[ This Message was edited by: Lark of Serenity on 2010-06-14 18:29 ]
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Starcommander
Marshal
Joined: December 14, 2005
Posts: 579
From: In your base, stealing your cookies
| Posted: 2010-06-14 18:33
in all reality its the enh that are breaking the balance. On paper all the ships are really well balanced to one another, scen is the perfect place to show this. You throw enh into the mix and everything just fall apart. The Krill becomes something of a legend, max out on multis and the thing will tear a station to shreds. You put all def enh on it and it can take fire like an uggie and still deal out 7 SI. For UGTO you put all def enh and couple that with mass drones and your literally invincible, even to a luth. ICC can make themselves deal way more damage then there supposed to, the AD is a good example of this with a good amount of multis, those HCL will kill anything. A LS with all wep multis (like I have mine set up) will kill a Kluth in one alpha, and take out 20% hull per a hit there after.
Again in scen where there are no enh used, everything is well balanced in firepower/defense, with enh, that balance falls apart.
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2010-06-14 19:19
@Lark,
First of all, non of stations can win against Ugto's . I have tested all in beta and everytime ugto stations win ridiculously. I remember , i tested them with sens ,too. If anyone doubts about it , we can go to beta for a quick test.
But do you realy think is there long range faction or fight in darkspace? Seriously what is the long range? UGTO cant cloak , they dont have faster jump drives than yours and you CAN NOT still beat them. They wipe ICC once every 2 weeks from the mv. They still manage to jump right top of you as we decloak right near you. They can fire at you at 3/4 range while we need to go 1/2 range. I mean really, first beat ugto then ask for something against kluth.
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2010-06-14 20:10
Kluth is NOT a hit and run faction. Havent been since .483. In .483 it was a run away for your life faction. In 1.5xx it's been a stand and slug faction.
Funny though, every time we ( I mean the Kluth) point this out, and the obvious remedies for it, all we get are 1. Flamed by players, and 2. literal utter silence from the staff.
Its bad enough that I really just have no fun in this game anymore. We're not tooled correctly, and it was much of the appeal to this faction when I made it my home more than 6 years ago. When we have the numbers its way out of balance. When we have low numbers, we simply get farmed.
But I'll save the rest of the tired tirade, because its the same as its been from me for 2 years now, and it obviously isnt going to change.
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-06-14 20:49
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On 2010-06-14 15:22, Fleet Admiral CRAZY45 *TO* wrote:
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What I think you guys need is one specialist Cruiser and Dread variant for close range combat. It may be totally against the "long range" mantra of the faction.... but whoever said that ICC had to foolishly follow that philosophy to a T and be at a disadvantage just because of it?
These vessels will serve to be escorts to your MDs and MCs, and will provide close support when you get jumped by Kluth or UGTO. And if they don't do their jobs, who's to blame?
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um....AD.....AC? maybe thay need to be more powerful is that what ur getting at?
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The AD is fine. Except for the shield regen bit. Let's see how your def mode pans out.
The AC..... is lacking. Played it in scen and found it terrible to use.
Ultimately, the problem lies in the weapons complement.
The ship needs a layout change, and maybe the faction needs new energy weapons..... an energy alternative to your ammo based guns. And then have your ships mix out the weaps, so that you don't run out of ammo or energy from all that firing and rotating.
You guys suffer from:
- lack of armor/shielding
- lack of ammunition
which translates to lack of combat endurance.
In a defense situation, ironically, ICC can't hold the ground as well as UGTO.
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2010-06-14 21:23
@pakhos, i dont see an issue with UGTO because its mainly numbers. oh god the numbers. it does seem that their stations have too much energy, which is onea the things i pointed out, but the rest of their ships seem pretty solid (except for the BD which needs 1 or 2 less cannons). if there are other balance issues TELL US ABOUT THEM instead of getting angry at me when i post about my issues with balance! from ICCs experience the problem has been repair drones on UGTO and not much else. if u have found something else share it.
@Az, you havent posted holistic reincarnations of kluth, which is why u get flamed. the last post u put up was to make ECCM worse and to up kluth dessy capability. i probably agree with both of those in spirit (though im wary of making kluth dessies powerful because of the version im sure you recall where they could kill dreads) BUT, only if we make beacons better and reduce kluth armour/energy.
as for silence from staff: welcome to the club. half the players who say anything feel like they are ignored or they are literally laughed at. my response from Sens for saying the short version of this post in scen was "lol, you're funny" and that was it. this is why i think there should be more communication between players and devs.
[ This Message was edited by: Lark of Serenity on 2010-06-14 23:07 ]
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Talien
Marshal
Templar Knights
Joined: May 11, 2010
Posts: 2044
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2010-06-14 21:49
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On 2010-06-14 20:49, Kenny_Naboo wrote:
The AD is fine. Except for the shield regen bit. Let's see how your def mode pans out.
The AC..... is lacking. Played it in scen and found it terrible to use.
Ultimately, the problem lies in the weapons complement.
The ship needs a layout change, and maybe the faction needs new energy weapons..... an energy alternative to your ammo based guns. And then have your ships mix out the weaps, so that you don't run out of ammo or energy from all that firing and rotating.
You guys suffer from:
- lack of armor/shielding
- lack of ammunition
which translates to lack of combat endurance.
In a defense situation, ironically, ICC can't hold the ground as well as UGTO.
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I dunno, AC seems fine.....maybe swap out a couple of the CLs for more torps, but other than that it does what it's supposed to do.
ICC armor would be fine if shields didn't get dropped so quickly, rotating shields just means all 4 arcs are stripped away within a matter of seconds if you're being shot at by a couple ships your own size. Defense mode is good for having shields not take several minutes to regen while repairing after combat, but still doesn't do much to address the combat endurance problem.
But yeah, the limited ammo is what mostly does it, at least for me. I normally run out of ammo before anything else if I'm flying something smaller than a Cruiser, most definitely if I'm flying a Scout.
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2010-06-14 21:57
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On 2010-06-14 21:23, Lark of Serenity wrote:
@Az, you havent posted holistic reincarnations of kluth, which is why u get flamed. the last post u put up was to make ECCM worse and to up kluth dessy capability.
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You musta read that with one eye blind then, because I offered much much more than that.
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Shath
Admiral
Pitch Black
Joined: July 17, 2007
Posts: 219
From: Portland, OR
| Posted: 2010-06-14 22:00
lol ive played sum icc on and off....and even tho it isnt my main faction and i barely play it i gotta say....they are beyond screwed over atm....beyond.....its just rediculous how much *%&$ they take and still havnt faction hopped or quit game
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James 296
Fleet Admiral
Joined: March 19, 2009
Posts: 141
| Posted: 2010-06-14 22:27
@ lark
uh, you must have a different definition of hit and run then I do. Here's my definition of hit and run: can hit enemy with weak attacks and quickly get a way without the enemy knowing what hit them, doing this multiple times with the point being to cause confusion in the enemy forces and then to finally destroy them. a.k.a guerrilla warfare. Your definition by my understanding: hit an enemy, completely wiping out their force/s then quickly getting away before enemy reinforcements arrive.
I hate to say it but your definition sounds K'luth being a slugger, which is UGTO/s style. if you wish to clarify this in a reasonable understand then go ahead by all means
On to something else,
the K'luth cloak is a double edge pointy sword. The reason being is if you nerf the cloak you nerf the luth as a whole but if you buff the cloak you nerf both UGTO and ICC. Personally I'd like to see the cloak work great for a single or a small group ie being no larger the 4-6 ships, basically being a small battle group not a fleet. a fleet of cloak ships should be easier to find then a single ship. Now the part that can be misunderstood; a Single ICC or UGTO ship should be able to find a cloaked luth fleet but not the small battle group. the reason behind this is simple and the same goes for submarines as well, if you have a large group of subs they generate alot of noise which makes them easier to find them, using S.O.N.A.R. but single sub is diffcult to find because it's make very little noise. thus this is how luth SHOULD operate, but they don't. An entire luth fleet could go by a single ugto or icc without it even pinging them(if there using ecm).
this problem, however, is only half solved, meaning ping. I suggest that we refine ping, but that's for a different topic
so now let the agreement/disagreement begin.
P.S. I'm trying to used my great sense of reasoning then what I usually use for DS and this is part of how I write for some essays.
P.S.S. ugh my brain hurts now from under usage. I'm coming out from a brain hangover if you will 
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Winters Rapture
Fleet Admiral
United Nations Space Command
Joined: December 09, 2007
Posts: 355
| Posted: 2010-06-14 22:36
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On 2010-06-14 22:00, Shath wrote:
lol ive played sum icc on and off....and even tho it isnt my main faction and i barely play it i gotta say....they are beyond screwed over atm....beyond.....its just rediculous how much *%&$ they take and still havnt faction hopped or quit game
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+10 rep to Shath.
Reason: Posting something real.
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2010-06-14 23:28
the game is mostly balanced, and its balanced pretty well. im not saying one faction is horridly OP over the others, or one is horridly UP ... under? the others. im saying there are a multitude of tiny issues that need to be addressed to make balance lovely and wonderful. that being said, i think the factions dont all fit their prescribed roles as they should, so the fact that its balanced is a bit weird, but there you have it.
RE: hit and run; that version of hit and run works if you are a weak force fighting a grossly larger one. that isnt kluth though, they supposedly deploy forces equal to UGTO and ICC. so hit and run in this case is meant to balance against the playstyles of UGTO and ICC. kluth in this case should hit hard, but not be able to stay to continue hitting hard, thereby making their hard hit relatively equal to the sustained damage an ICC ship can do in turn to them if they are found, or to the moderately better damage of an UGTO ship.
however, thats in the older understanding of the factions. if the devs wanted to bring the factions closer together theyve done a good job, and i can see that being a reasonable goal if trying to balance 3 playstyles has been found to be too difficult. and youre really close to doing that. it just needs a bit more work =S
anyways, i actually disagree with shath. nothing ive said = game breaking. i think ICC can stand on its own fairly well against UGTO and that there are some issues with us v kluth, but otherwise it feels balanced-ish, especially in scenario.
a hot fix for the kluth issues: make ECCM ping at randomized ranges between 0 and whatever the current range is. put in a secondary ECCM that pings much higher at the distances ICC want to shoot missiles. make missiles not explode when a kluth ship cloaks. that should make kluth happy because we wont always necessarily ping them even with thousands of ECCM running, and ICC will be able to fire at kluth ships at a distance and just have to work to maintain distance.
[ This Message was edited by: Lark of Serenity on 2010-06-14 23:32 ]
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Jamesbond
Grand Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: February 05, 2003
Posts: 146
From: Venice Florida
| Posted: 2010-06-15 00:08
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ICC defense:
I haven't popped in to check def mode just yet, but im hearing some intriguing reports.
A) a CD versus a TC, CD didnt even get hull damage
B) a line station versus an UGTO SS, the line station lost despite def mode being on.
so... yeah, somethings up, but i cant say what. def mode is OP in some cases but not enough in others?
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This is very easy to understand, TC was prob stock which = crap and the cd was prob fully enhanced, you do not give us any sort of discussion on what was on these ships... Also pilots who understand ICC can and will take down a tc with prob little to no hull damage.
With the Line Station vs the SS, Line station in defensive mode was prob burning up energy and eventually couldnt fire, whilist the SS was firing missles and repairing the armor and just rotating which areas were affected. Not that hard to do. ( Also enhancments come into play in this... i.e was the ss full def and the line half and half or what???)
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K'luth hit and run:
they arent.
A stock siphon can put down 7 alphas
a stock assault dread can do 13
the other day i alphaed a kluth scale at point blank using an ICC support station. he cloaked again while maintaining green armour rings.
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So basically you shot a kluth scale with what is it 4-6 hvy lasers and 3-4 IC rounds since being point blank none of your missles would have fired. Also your shots prob hit his broadside for half the damage than the rear for the other half since he was im guessing moving and not just standing still.
Sorry just another bad example in this case.
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so imagine for a moment, 8 kluth dreads decloak, everyone immediately starts shooting the nearest target.... chances are the kluth are going to do a LOT more damage to you than you will to them.
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Well good lord 8 eads sitting there will do a heck of a lot more damage to you as well. Ya we dont have the cloak to get in position but I can tell ya this, EAD's can dish out and take a heck of a lot more damage than any luth dread can.
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i think kluth weapons should be given more damage per shot, but their armour needs to be reworked (either lessened or reset so that kluth have a weak spot in the rear like they traditionally have had) and/or their energy needs to be reduced and/or their speed needs to be upped. this will make them fit the hit and run formula better. for a long time there was pressure pushing them away from this playstyle, and since then we have been constantly pushing to have them return to their intended makeup, but its been difficult because kluth players have seen these things as absolutely necessary. i dont think this is really the case though, and we should explore alternatives.
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No they do not, their armor does not need to be lessened as they are already a joke to fight against. They need more speed (i.e hit and run faction). Right now UGTO would rather fight against the luth (well some of us) than ICC since I can tell ya this, my fully enhanced in all greens EAD, can take on 2 luth dreads and usually make both of them jump or at least take one down with me and the other one well hulled.
I mean last night I took down a fully enhanced AD due to rotating where my damage was being done to as well as sitting in the fight till a scarab and a I think siphon finally wore through my armor and my hull and made me finally jump.
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related, EW/cloak needs some attention:
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Personally just bring back the old style eccm raises the sig by a certain amount and ecm decreases it by a certain amount. Makes both factions employ more smaller ships to combat eccm and ecm ships/bases. Helps ICC fire at luth since they will be fully visible till they get outta range. But this would also require a decrease in the amount of eccm on human ships or at least a decrease in the amount of sig that eccm raises to allow luth to get around without having to employ 15 ecm ships....
Hmmm, was thinking about this after I typed it and I dunno, this might be more work than it is worth. Though bringing back the ecm/eccm base days would be fun lol. Brings back old memories!
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enhancments should have set value increases, not percentage increases [/b[
for the obvious reason that if i have a weapon that does 40 damage and my friend fighting me has a weapon that does 10 damage, and we each choose to buff our damage output, i just got a lot more for my buck than he or she did.
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Ummm... I am going to be nice on this one and just go by the fact that im guessing most ships are scaled to where a dessi vs another dessie is going to have near the same damage output.
Basically your example is throwing a scout vs a dread where the scout weapon does 10 damage and the dread does 40.
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[b] repair rates, as wonderfully highlighted by the UGTO
a limitation needs to be placed on the number of supply drones a single ship can accept, or a system of diminishing returns needs to be put in place, or all factions should have something similar to def mode during which they can repair but cannot shoot (who the hell is going to volunteer to go outside and weld new chunks of armour onto my hull in the middle of a fight anyways exactly???)
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They are drones first of all, meaning ai and have no feelings, emotions or care about getting blasted to bits. Look at star wars when the droids went out on the ship to fix it during a middle of the battle.
But ya I can see a slight decrease or at least a cap in the amount of supply drones a ship can have. But only to an extent since I dunno how long it takes for yalls shields to recharge now but than that could severly dampen UGTO repair speeds when there is no combat. I mean crap when we have 8 stations that need to be repaired it still takes us a good 20 minutes to get them all repaired and stuff and thats with most on one station at a time. Imagine if there was a cap. Wed be there for an hour just trying to get stuff fixed.
Sorry for the long post. At work and bored and decided to shed a little light on my thoughts on this subject.
[ This Message was edited by: Jamesbond on 2010-06-15 00:11 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Jamesbond on 2010-06-15 00:20 ]
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2010-06-15 11:48
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On 2010-06-15 00:08, Jamesbond wrote:
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