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Death penalty |
Starcommander
Marshal
Joined: December 14, 2005
Posts: 579
From: In your base, stealing your cookies
|  Posted: 2010-06-11 17:00
Return to the old 480's pres loss. Did you ever see a dread or station back then? No, Because the pres loss was so massive you hardly saw one, and if you did you would see a station backed by a lot of other smaller ships. Massive pres loss wouldn't make people not want to fight, it would make them play SMART! If you want to leave the game because now its not an easy button, so be it, the game will be better off without you until you mature a little more. You won't want to lose your dreads/stations as much, so you will be flying smaller ships. This will bring about what sooooo many whiners what, no more dread space and no more station space.
What I am proposing is just an increase in loss for dreads and stations, making the smaller cruisers a little more pleasing to the pres eye. So you lose a little for a cruiser but the next jump would be massive. So instead of 120-200 now for a dread (yes I have tested this and it is that small). You lose 600-700 for dread1 and dread2, stations would be 1500-2000 pres loss, making them extremely rare in the game. Forget the timers, losing that much pres from a station is a deterrent in of itself.
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Kanman
Grand Admiral
Pitch Black
Joined: August 26, 2005
Posts: 1017
From: Virginia, United States
| Posted: 2010-06-11 18:31
Quote:
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On 2010-06-11 17:00, Starcommand of ICC *XO* wrote:
Return to the old 480's pres loss. Did you ever see a dread or station back then? No, Because the pres loss was so massive you hardly saw one, and if you did you would see a station backed by a lot of other smaller ships.
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Keep focused. We are discussing a respawn delay, the pros and cons associated with that and how it would be effectively implemented. Changing the topic to an alternative solution (changing pres gain/loss rates) is a straight path to this thread getting lost in pointless, non-linear discussion until the idea is lost by the devs and admins.
The respawn delay is a brilliant idea and it would serve the game well to get the gameplay back in line with the intended structure of the game. So, let's stay on topic, please.
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Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
| Posted: 2010-06-11 19:12
Sounds like you are proposing a workaround to get back to the old pre-SY system of having to spawn in the home system and work your way back to the front, which meant that if you're defending your home territory, you can get back in the action fairly quickly, but if you are deep in enemy space, it takes longer to return... in effect, providing a defenders bonus.
That system worked well enough because it was seen as a natural limiter. However, we're in a world of shipyards now, so that's not possible. And we don't, as a rule, like artificial limits like this placed on the gameplay. And I swear there was recently another thread that talked about making joining the action faster and easier... not to mention calls for a fleet wars server and scenario server speed ups.
Anyway, I don't think we want a respawn timer per se. If anything, we'd have a ship construction timer (same effect, but more reasonable). Personally I'd prefer something more like what was suggested earlier: making ships zeroed at spawn, to provide a bit of a delay, but not limiting players like a big clock saying "YOU CAN'T PLAY" would. As much as it might be nice for you as an attacker to have a delay, being in the midst of a big battle and suddenly getting a "NO WAIT" message would annoy you.
I don't mean to dissuade you from talking about a respawn timer (or related ideas), but I think it has a pretty high bar to convince us to implement.
note: part of this is personal opinion and part is what I recall Faustus saying in the past; he'd have to clear on the idea, so I'm trying to channel him, but I could be totally wrong, so don't give up entirely
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DarkCloudd
Grand Admiral
Joined: June 20, 2005
Posts: 85
From: Iowa
| Posted: 2010-06-11 21:09
A timer isnt an all bad idea but that would punish the defenders as much as the attackers, nor would I want to have to wait to respawn my ship after its been destroyed because it still takes time to repair it before I could jump back in to help defend the planet or attack another one.
If this is mainly a thread looking for a way to stop factory fresh or fully repaired ships from jumping back into combat too soon, then why not make it so you can not spawn from and enemy's home gate. I have seen players spawn from a factions home gate in an effort to outflank them/get back into combat faster. Yes I dont want the action to stop but I would also like a breather to repair my ship and attempt to reorgnize before having a fully repaired ship either dread/station or whatever be just one jump away from the action.
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Lonectzn
Fleet Admiral
Joined: January 06, 2005
Posts: 202
| Posted: 2010-06-12 02:15
Well the issue itself is largely a result of our current ability to spawn at transfer gates. It's amplified by the fact most MV combat is in Sagittarius. Without transfer gates, players would have to spend time coming from the nearest (or second-nearest, if one is under blockade) shipyard. You'd see the sort of defender advantage that shigernafy is talking about.
Unfortunately, it is not so simple as just stopping people from spawning at transfer gates. Without that option, a faction with no shipyards in Sagittarius would have to log out (for two minutes) connect somewhere they have a shipyard, then transfer back. That would be unacceptably awkward and time-consuming.
On the bright side, when the devs do finally bring the servers into a single map, this will be largely resolved. I still think that zero'ing energy or jump drives is a cool option that would also help slow things down a little in scenario. People often pull a new ship rather than fix their current one, and having some drawback to that would be nice.
The moral of this story is: can't wait for a single map.
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Zero28
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 25, 2006
Posts: 591
| Posted: 2010-06-12 22:44
Zero'ing Energy and JD sounds goos really (off course, it will be another plus for Kluth in term of JD XD)
Respawn time, Ship construciton time, call it whatever you wishes, Everyone here got the point, an they mostly All agree to it. Whatever mesures can be used don't really mather as long as the result remain the same. i don't remember seeing some many people agree to an idea in a while
Diep said it would stop the prestige cycle, i doubt it will. Why should a ship that Won his hard earned Prest should lose it afterward to the player he JUST killed . i hardly even see prest Gain in that.
keep in mind battles are not 1 on 1 but mostly 5 on 5 and up, you hardly get 100% prest of a ship you killed, but you lose 100% prest of your death when he comes back in a brand new/bigger ship
Shig, i know you guys don't want to put a timer like that, BUt theres a good reason for it, and hearing from the players, it is needed
THis game is no longer ABout tactics and Teamwork, Its about numbers in the fight and in the garage
2 Dreads shoots a Station, 1 dread dies and comes back in a Brand new state. Whats the point fo the station to even fight? Its kill the "Tactic & Strategy" section of the game
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Starcommander
Marshal
Joined: December 14, 2005
Posts: 579
From: In your base, stealing your cookies
| Posted: 2010-06-13 00:14
zeroing out energy will be bad for ICC if they get the defense mode as it is now where you lose energy just sitting still. This will make ICC take longer to get back into the fight even WITH something that's supposedly going to make them get back in faster.
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Zero28
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 25, 2006
Posts: 591
| Posted: 2010-06-13 01:10
he does have a point there, but if JD is zeroed but we don't zeroed Energy, if the combat is near a planet, some ships (like MD's ) will be able to start fightign right after respawn, i do beleive a timer is the best thing
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Guyton (Angel of Death)
Marshal
Joined: January 25, 2004
Posts: 706
| Posted: 2010-06-13 06:56
Quote:
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On 2010-06-12 02:15, Lonectzn wrote:
Well the issue itself is largely a result of our current ability to spawn at transfer gates. It's amplified by the fact most MV combat is in Sagittarius. Without transfer gates, players would have to spend time coming from the nearest (or second-nearest, if one is under blockade) shipyard. You'd see the sort of defender advantage that shigernafy is talking about.
Unfortunately, it is not so simple as just stopping people from spawning at transfer gates. Without that option, a faction with no shipyards in Sagittarius would have to log out (for two minutes) connect somewhere they have a shipyard, then transfer back. That would be unacceptably awkward and time-consuming.
On the bright side, when the devs do finally bring the servers into a single map, this will be largely resolved. I still think that zero'ing energy or jump drives is a cool option that would also help slow things down a little in scenario. People often pull a new ship rather than fix their current one, and having some drawback to that would be nice.
The moral of this story is: can't wait for a single map.
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Single map? We had one at one point but apparently people complained about lag now its multiple servers hosting a different set of systems. Since its much easier to find combat on the scenario well heck I'm usually in there, but I miss playing in a larger metaverse where players really went at it.
I myself am against the idea of any delay in ship spawning just for the fact it feels like an age just to see combat at times. It sounds like a great idea for the Scenario server but not the metaverse. Even for the 'zero out' idea. I suppose I can contribute an idea of my own.
We have:
Blockades
Damaged Ship(Respawning 5% after death)
Whatever else we have I don't feel like figuring out(hangover).
Suggestion:
Instead of respawn timers and zeroing everything out, how about something as simple as a disabled jumpdrive on timer.
Example: Your Defending "Earth" and your ship is loss in the process of defending it. Since the enemy has your planet under an obvious blockade you are forced to respawn else where. Upon respawn your ship's jumpdrive is disabled for a set time because your ship is still under a "Post Launch Phase" from the shipyard. After all systems are "Green" (Obvious giving the go a green jump drive) your free to return to the battle.
Your Attacking "Earth" and your ship is loss in the process of attacking it. Your a while away from home you have to spawn at the closest shipyard you can find. Same goes as the example above waiting for the "Green" all systems clear to go. Well you lost your ship attacking a planet that might be a good distance away. You have to hurry and get your ship back into the fight before your fleet falls apart. (You all get where I'm going).
The disabled jump drive function shouldn't last stupidly long. This isn't Eve, we shouldn't have to wait to jump back into the thrill of the game. Perhaps in Scenario the drive should be disabled a little longer seeing as the enemy is well "Right fricken there" type gameplay.
[ This Message was edited by: Sheppard(Angel of Death) on 2010-06-13 06:57 ]
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2010-06-13 07:25
Never increase prestige loss again. We saw how well that worked (it didn't.)
Quote:
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On 2010-06-11 19:12, Shigernafy wrote:
Sounds like you are proposing a workaround to get back to the old pre-SY system of having to spawn in the home system and work your way back to the front, which meant that if you're defending your home territory, you can get back in the action fairly quickly, but if you are deep in enemy space, it takes longer to return... in effect, providing a defenders bonus.
That system worked well enough because it was seen as a natural limiter. However, we're in a world of shipyards now, so that's not possible. And we don't, as a rule, like artificial limits like this placed on the gameplay. And I swear there was recently another thread that talked about making joining the action faster and easier... not to mention calls for a fleet wars server and scenario server speed ups.
Anyway, I don't think we want a respawn timer per se. If anything, we'd have a ship construction timer (same effect, but more reasonable). Personally I'd prefer something more like what was suggested earlier: making ships zeroed at spawn, to provide a bit of a delay, but not limiting players like a big clock saying "YOU CAN'T PLAY" would. As much as it might be nice for you as an attacker to have a delay, being in the midst of a big battle and suddenly getting a "NO WAIT" message would annoy you.
I don't mean to dissuade you from talking about a respawn timer (or related ideas), but I think it has a pretty high bar to convince us to implement.
note: part of this is personal opinion and part is what I recall Faustus saying in the past; he'd have to clear on the idea, so I'm trying to channel him, but I could be totally wrong, so don't give up entirely
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Well, let me rephrase it this way. All the timer does is apply to that class of ship. Its not saying you can't play - its just saying you can't spam a specific class.
I know its a bit of a stretch, but you can really think of DS in RTS terms. Things like Dreadnaughts and Stations are the big pieces of the game, take a long time to build and alot of resources to bring out but when you do they leave a mark. Lose one and its a big loss.
The problem DS kind of has with this is that its a loss only to player and not so much one to the faction. You kill a ship and all you've done is be an inconvinience. Now you kill a ship and prevent that class of ship coming back. You kill a dreadnaught or a station and its a big victory, you don't have to worry about another one from that person from a while. They can bring out another class of ship, but its not as big or as mean.
Which makes killing people really nice - you are really eliminating a ship from the game if its a significant ship. It matters. You kill someone now and its not so terrible to a faction. Its a nice addition.
I usually don't favor artifical limits, but this one has a beneficial impact on the game I think.
-Ent
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Kenny_Naboo
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: January 11, 2010
Posts: 3823
From: LobsterTown
| Posted: 2010-06-13 10:09
Well since the planet that the battle is raging over is blockaded (or supposed to be, if things work as they're supposed to) then the ship that just died shd not be able to respawn there. Just make a new 'killed' flag for the player that makes his next spawn a zero JD ship.
That should prevent him from jumping back into the battle instantly.
Of course, some smart player will prob respawn in a scout, then swap out back into a station once the JD is up. So perhaps a JD disable timer corresponding to the class of ship he last lost will do better.
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DiepLuc
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 23, 2010
Posts: 1187
| Posted: 2010-06-13 11:10
So, this is my last opinion for this thread.
Is death penalty necessary?
I just made a quick look from the beginning of the thread. The idea of death penalty is to punish the poor pilot, and prevent "quick revenge". But don't forget, when the death penalty applies, everybody will stay under it effect, even in sce. So, if you want to prevent your opponent to come back, then it's you will also be prevented when you're destroyed. Some players in this thread talked "I don't want that guy to come back immidiately after I kill him", but I don't hear "Oh, I was destroyed, now I don't want to come back". Why does everybody want the bad thing for the enemy, but not for himself/herself?
Oh, and zero ships when spawn is a crazy idea. If I know somebody is killed, I'd take a scout/fri to their shipyard/gate and kill them with one shot and not worry for myself. Kluth will get all the benefit from this.
It's true that the one who sacrifice one's big ships has a reason to die for. If anyone thinks Steve is mad, no it's not. He's used most of his ships to cease the activity of the enemies by his force and kami. That's a brave tactic that I bet not many will do.
I also notice that who support the idea are all admiral and above, who has the awareness of what to do. How about the newbie? To die again and again so fast will cause them to leave DS...
So, my last line is to oppose violently to the idea.
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Lonectzn
Fleet Admiral
Joined: January 06, 2005
Posts: 202
| Posted: 2010-06-13 11:38
Quote:
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On 2010-06-13 11:10, Diep Luc wrote:
Oh, and zero ships when spawn is a crazy idea. If I know somebody is killed, I'd take a scout/fri to their shipyard/gate and kill them with one shot and not worry for myself. Kluth will get all the benefit from this.
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You misread that. The suggestion was to zero energy and jump drive only, guaranteeing a short period until the ship is combat ready. I didn't suggest zero hull or armour.
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James 296
Fleet Admiral
Joined: March 19, 2009
Posts: 141
| Posted: 2010-06-13 11:55
I personally think all of these ideas should be TESTED BEFORE THERE IMPLEMENTED. with at being said, I like the idea of a JD time limit. it works similar to the respawn and zero JD/energy ideas but still is flexible enough to be played with and not limit Darkspace it self. Defenders get a bonus as they have a sy closer by and the attackers ave to more closely think about what there going to do.
P.S. this not off topic as the topic is about a Death penalty so please DO NOT LIMIT THIS DISCUSSION, my good sir. as ideas for what happens when we die.
P.S.S. please clarify what you talk about as Zero JD as in No jump drive fuel or a jump drive having to recharge after spawn. Thank you
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Rebellion
Marshal
Faster than Light
Joined: June 20, 2009
Posts: 730
From: sol
| Posted: 2010-06-13 13:17
Quote:
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On 2010-06-13 00:14, Starcommand of ICC *XO* wrote:
zeroing out energy will be bad for ICC if they get the defense mode as it is now where you lose energy just sitting still. This will make ICC take longer to get back into the fight even WITH something that's supposedly going to make them get back in faster.
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he has a very Vaild point
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