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Cloak fail related to hull damage [Suggestion] |
MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
|  Posted: 2009-11-29 19:55
I agree with you 100% on ship dictors, I don't like how they can be used offensively either.
But as for cloak failing, shouldn't that be part of the whole "systems damage" system? You take enough damage and maybe the cloak gets damaged and doesn't work.
It used to work like that. I remember when a flux wave would uncloak all kluth in the area, when they had no armor.
I say if anything, the "systems damage" system needs to be completely re-done. Let us choose to target specific enemy systems for one, like engines or cloak or reactors or jumpdrives or whatever. And make ships start taking that damage sooner; as soon as the hull is breached systems in that arc should be in danger of taking damage.
It may technically be like this now, but systems damage doesn't seem to have any effect, and you don't see much systems damage at all until a ship has lost a lot of hull. That's been my experience anyway.
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LAG
Marshal
Lethal Assault Group
Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 323
From: Margaritaville
| Posted: 2009-11-29 19:56
Can we please get a spell-checker!
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JBud
Marshal
Joined: February 26, 2008
Posts: 1900
From: Behind you.
| Posted: 2009-11-29 20:06
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On 2009-11-29 19:56, LAG wrote:
Can we please get a spell-checker!
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LAG if you're having trouble spelling use firefox or some other browser with a built in spell checker..
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LAG
Marshal
Lethal Assault Group
Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 323
From: Margaritaville
| Posted: 2009-11-29 20:27
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On 2009-11-29 20:06, JBud wrote:
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On 2009-11-29 19:56, LAG wrote:
Can we please get a spell-checker!
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LAG if you're having trouble spelling use firefox or some other browser with a built in spell checker..
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JBud, if you actually read the previous entries and recognized that a spell checker would be helpful, (needless to point out your grammar)... ...use FireFox and check out www.dictionary.com, nice to see you are paying attention.
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Azreal
Chief Marshal
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 2816
From: United State of Texas, Houston
| Posted: 2009-11-29 23:36
System damage was just recently tweaked. It WAS set to where the second u had no armor then emp could knock out 100% of systems. It was changed because it was OPd like freakin hell.
By the way. That same Kluth who would be semi cloaked would be FULLY vulnerable and FULLY unable to return fire.
And all for using the tactics as intended.
And all because there has been a neglect in adding beacons to more ships.
Want to talk about logical?
What defense organization, facing an enemy like the K'Luth, having technology like a beacon, WOULDN'T have them on the majority of their ships?
Sorry. I will disagree with this until the cows come home.
Targeting systems for damage from weapons should be returned. That was always a good thing.
Back to jacking with the cloak after all this stupid tweaking that has gone on for 3 years now since they went to this stupid version - THAT WAS BEGGED FOR BY NON KLUTH I MIGHT ADD is not the answer and only serves to piss people like me off.
One breath K'Luth is fine.
Another breath they need more nerfbat.
Ya'll are giving me an ulcer.
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Hellza - Dark Master
Fleet Admiral
Praetorian Wolves
Joined: June 06, 2004
Posts: 498
| Posted: 2009-11-30 02:09
We better able to keep firing our weapons until 0. Sig if our cloaking drive has a fail check thingydovwacka.
Icc sheilds should have a fail check to, it makes perfectly sense. a badly damaged ships shield shouldnt be able to regen just as good as a untouched icc ship.
with ugto. hmm.. they really dont have anything that could have a fail check.
what about jump drives? well this imply them too?
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Dwarden
Admiral
CHIMERA
Joined: June 07, 2001
Posts: 1072
From: Czech Republic
| Posted: 2009-11-30 02:21
why people tends to infest some usable discussion with offtopic nonsense like spellchecker ?
can some forum mod do pruning and clean up mess?
anyway comments about 'using same logic for other systems' damage to sub-components already exist but it's SO MARGINAL and SO FAST fixable it loose it's purpose
now on Kluth ship with autoregeneration it's double useless
unability target subsystem to cause it fail sooner is another point
anyway the point is ... K'luth ship is living body, cloak covers it from being detected ... if you have 75% of body shell GONE with leaks of particles and w/e else all around then You are detect able ...
if not 'cloak fail' at least think about 'UNKNOWN' targeting rectagle with +- 50% ship size around it's location as representation of the sensor pickup
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Sixkiller
Marshal
Courageous Elite Commandos
Joined: May 11, 2005
Posts: 1786
From: Netherlands
| Posted: 2009-11-30 07:04
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On 2009-11-29 12:21, $yTHe {C?} wrote:
Use dictors, plus even if they cloak you can still see the fire. PLUS you can hear Kluth ships moving, which is interesting given that you shouldn't be able to hear any sound in space that isn't vibrating off of your own hull but whatever.
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I thought this has long been removed? I like it currently that damaged Kluth arent always visible, that just ruins cloak. However having damage increase signature makes sense, and might not be that hard to implement.
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Viskel the Muffin Muncher
Grand Admiral
Joined: November 13, 2009
Posts: 38
From: Your Fridge
| Posted: 2009-11-30 08:59
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I am sorry.. Let me be more specific. I personally dislike Interdictor ships. The ONLY reason I could think of that would be close, imo, to what a Interdictor should be used for is to protect Key Assets from being point jumped.
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Last time I tried that I got flamed in-game by Wolf, who then brought two of their own dictors to use offensively.. I was there protecting a group of dreads and a station from being point-jumped, since we were too far away from the planet, and the second I was out I got yelled at. Heck, I got yelled at when still at the planet, being repaired by the supp plats (from the last time I used it).
Kluth don't seem to like dictors used offensively OR defensively. And I also disagree about them 'ruining' the game when used offensively. I have only used mine offensively once, but even when using it defensively it is very hard to keep alive, especially against Kluth who cloak and come up to you.
With the ICC interdictor, the dictor field requires so much power to run, that if your shields have to recharge, you run out of energy very very fast. Half the time I was in the fight to prevent the PJing, I had to deactivate my shields just to keep the field up, and hoping that I could reactivate them fast enough if a Krill appeared behind me.. And even if I could, dictors have paper-thin shields and armor, they aren't exactly hard to kill. Even sticking near our station and dreads for protection the Kluth eventually killed me. They are very weak ships, I'd feel safer in a bomber destroyer than a dictor. They aren't as big a problem as people keep making them.
On the issue of Kluth cloaks being disabled when hull gets hit, the ICC in my says yay, but their fair player in me (he's locked up in a cage somewhere) screams no. Even with other systems, you don't get much gadget damage until you're already almost dead, and Kluth cloak long before 5-10% hull left. So if we made it fair like other gadgets, it'd do nothing. If we made it happen more, it'd simply be unfair and gimp the Kluth.
A better alternative may be looking at making the automatic hull/armor repairer disabled while a Kluth is cloaked. Being able to cloak in the middle of a battle, fly around while you repair, then uncloak at full hull again and shoot people makes them too strong in a fight. They pretty much have the effect of having a supply ship repairing each one of them while cloaked. This way they'd need to jump out to repair, but they'd still be able to cloak and move around. It would encourage the use of cloak as a tactical ability, rather than a get-out-of-jail free card.
From what I've seen so far, a Kluth uncloaks (usually behind the target) and shoots them until it gets attacked by that team. Some of the more experienced ones don't do that however, but uncloak, fire an alpha, sometimes two, then cloak again before they are fired upon. This is how it should be used. Uncloak, do your damage, cloak again before the other team gets you, and move around and set up for your next attack. Done with a group this would be very very effective. It'll also fix the problem of a large group of Krill going around shooting up a group of CDs and cloaking when they get hurt, sitting around until they are full hull again. Since every Kluth ship can repair itself, they repair much much faster than an ICC or UGTO battlegroup with 2 heavy supply ships, and those two supply ships are very very easy for a Krill to kill unless they sit under a station (assuming there even is a station).
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2009-11-30 10:11
[quote]
On 2009-11-30 08:59, Viskel wrote:
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On the issue of Kluth cloaks being disabled when hull gets hit, the ICC in my says yay, but their fair player in me (he's locked up in a cage somewhere) screams no. Even with other systems, you don't get much gadget damage until you're already almost dead, and Kluth cloak long before 5-10% hull left. So if we made it fair like other gadgets, it'd do nothing. If we made it happen more, it'd simply be unfair and gimp the Kluth.
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That's the problem. You don't get much gadget damage until it's too late to make a difference. It really should have a chance of starting as soon as the hull is breached, and naturally the more the hull is damaged the greater the chance for more damage, going from minor systems damage that might affect recharge time or time to use (weapons would recharge slower, cloak would take longer to reach 0 sig) to completely knocking out a system.
Like I said, it may already work that way, but it's not noticeable. You either take no systems damage, or you take a whole lot at once when your hull is already so low you have to jump out or die (actually that's the old way, I don't even see systems damage now). At that point, so what?
If the "systems damage" was reworked (in my opinion it's still broken) and we were able to target specific systems and would need to face the proper arc to do it, we would have Kluth cloaks failing and ICC shields failing and UGTO jumpdrives failing, and whatever else we might want to target.
That's an enormous tactical system not being used.
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Kanman
Grand Admiral
Pitch Black
Joined: August 26, 2005
Posts: 1017
From: Virginia, United States
| Posted: 2009-11-30 12:53
I think this thread is running down the right track. The original post is right, that we need a means of breaking cloak offensively. Posts that followed are also correct in that it should be a matter of the systems damage part of the game, and they are also correct that systems damage has never been done quite correctly.
Systems damage is not working correctly because the rate of damage and repair to a system is not comparable to the rate of overall hull damage from continued combat. If you are not kluth and dont have a repair on you, when a system goes down it is not coming back. It repairs so very slowly that in the time frame of the continuing combat it will not make any headway in coming back online.
If you do have a repair on you, it repairs almost instantly, making systems damage and associated weapons completely meaningless. Given this repair system is on all kluth ships, it makes the systems damage a mute point of discussion. That brings us back to the original post. We are unable to break the cloak through systems damage.
Thus I support a complete re-working of the systems damage aspect of the game, including system specific targeting options (efficiently chosen target systems, not leafing through a list until the one we want comes up). I would suggest click-able subsystem points on the target figure that appears in the bottom right corner, color coded to represent weapons, engines, shield, misc. You click the subsystem to target it or just click the ship in space to reset to targetting the ship in general. It is also important to consider what is our angle of attack. I wouldnt want us damaging a weapon on the left side of the enemy ship when I am on his right side.
Even if specific system targetting is not introduced, consider this. The game knows what arcs we hit with our fire, thus assigning damage to the correct armor arc. The game also knows where our systems are on the ship. I suggest that systems damage be taken based on distance from the part of the ship taking hull damage. That means if your aft armor is gone and you take fire in the aft, then your engines will take damage, but not your fore weapons. Perhaps some minor damage to left and right weapons/systems, but not signficant damage to those. You have to eat through the left or right armor to do real damage to those systems.
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Viskel the Muffin Muncher
Grand Admiral
Joined: November 13, 2009
Posts: 38
From: Your Fridge
| Posted: 2009-11-30 19:37
If we are to make system damage useful, we have to vastly increase the amount of damage the hull can take.. And I'm not saying 2-3 times current, but 8-10 times if it is going to work. Anything less than that and you might as well just keep hitting hull straight on, as you'll kill them quickly enough that doing gadget damage instead would be pointless.
Another idea is to combine that idea with another; Increase hull by 3x, armor/shields by 2x. Then allow gadgets to be damaged through shields and armor. The rate of damage the gadget would take would be much smaller, as would the odds, while shields and armor are up, than it would be if you were hitting the gadgets while hitting hull. At the same time, only certain weaponry would damage gadgets. These would be specialty lasers and possibly precision missiles. Same range as normal lasers, but ~half the damage when used directly on hull/armor/shielding. This way these lasers would be used primarily for disabling gadgets. This will also increase the ship modding ability people want. In this you can either have anti-ship lasers or anti-gadget lasers. A destroyer, for example, would be pretty useful for this. A dreadnought, however, would only be hurting itself by putting on gadget lasers.
[ This Message was edited by: Viskel on 2009-11-30 19:39 ]
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Dwarden
Admiral
CHIMERA
Joined: June 07, 2001
Posts: 1072
From: Czech Republic
| Posted: 2009-12-01 01:01
or just adjust damage given to gadgets depending on amount of damage taken in the moment combined with already existing state of hull
yet still double of triple of hull values may be needed on all ships ...
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