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The issue of Dreadspace |
zombat87
Admiral
Joined: March 23, 2008
Posts: 13
|  Posted: 2009-02-24 10:08
Bring back torp dessies.
I don't see why people have a such a problem with smaller ships being able to take on larger ships.
Can't hit the smaller, faster, more manurable craft with your big guns?
Tough, dock and swap to a craft with guns able to hit the smaller ship or bring some escorts.
And yeah, Ships Damaged prestiged should be changed to include armor (you get supply points for things other than repairing hull, so why not?)
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DarkCloudd
Grand Admiral
Joined: June 20, 2005
Posts: 85
From: Iowa
| Posted: 2009-02-24 10:20
If the problem is too many dreads and stations running around then impose a server limit for them. Example for each faction on each server there can only be a limited number of Stations and Dreads on the server, somwhere in the neighborhood of 3 and 12 respectively. That would stop everyone from running around in Dreads and force other players to do support rolls like flying cruisers for fire support or flying scouts to beacon or supply ships to assist in the repair/resupply. Part of the problem is that the biggest gun is usually the best, yea I know that usually the sniper rifle is better than a bozooka but you get my drift. They are the biggest ships for a reason, they can dish out and take the most damage, aside from stations, than all the other ships. I do feel a little useless in the server but I know that my day will come when I can use them and dish out the pain. Sometimes you have to crawl before you can walk.
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2009-02-24 11:59
I think modding isnt bad if u remove weapon level from ships.
You know , in 1.483, we had some escort destroyers which could mount p cannons to level 10 and shield of level 10. In this case , yes it was the problem of DS. But in 1.480 , there was no weapon level system. Weapon used to do same damage from any ships to against any enemy ship. Also , there was a good balance about hull size that in a destroyer u had to make 6 alphas to same arc of a dread to hull it while dread could do it with 1 alpha on any single destroyer.
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Danek Ma`arna C`arns
Fleet Admiral
Joined: March 26, 2004
Posts: 102
From: Atlanta
| Posted: 2009-02-24 13:56
We had this same conversation at the end of 1.481.
The problem is that everyone says they want only a couple of dreads per side, and a field of smaller ships. However, every one of them want to be the dread driver, and the other people be in the smaller ships.
If the goal is to make Dreads a fleet ship, not a solo pwnship, and to make fleets of dreads less than optimal, then the aswer is the same now as it was then-
Reduce Dread turning dramatically. Speed them up in the straight line, increase acceleration, whatever. But a destroyer at 600gu should be able to remain behind a lone dread forever...
Next, revisit weapon arcs. Because of their large size, dread weapons are mostly single arc coverage, with a few having two arcs (side front, side back). The perponderance of dread weaponry should be forward facing. As the ships get smaller, they should get better arc coverage.
Add a randomizer in jump destination. The smaller ships are more accurate, the largest end up somewhere inside a 1000gu radius circle.
These three changes set the stage. The largest vessels become viable only with fleet coverage, with a focus on long range heavy firepower... as close battles can too easily move out of dread arc coverage. Close jumping cannot be relied upon to boom and zoom. However, this provides no reason to be in a smaller ship.
The reason that Frigate and Destroyer guns are so much less powerful is that they are dual purpose. Their guns should have a pulse shield effect when fired at/near missiles and fighters. Dreads, having reduced arc coverage, the general inability to out manuver or swing an arc into line, will require vessels to provide PD for them.
Make Point Defense a pres gathering activity. It doesn't have to give much per kill, but it does give the smaller vessels something to do, and in an intense battle, the sheer volume will add up as swiftly as repair. The dreads need them to be near to keep other small vessels from camping their exhaust, and to provide missile deffense. The small vessels can remain under the protective guns of the larger vessels, and not simply race in and hope for the best as they must now. Finally, the dreads remain their lethality and ability to ignore smaller vessels, at least in the short term of the battle.
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Kanman
Grand Admiral
Pitch Black
Joined: August 26, 2005
Posts: 1017
From: Virginia, United States
| Posted: 2009-02-24 18:13
Even if my suggestion isnt taken into development, word for word, some of those are really good stand-alone suggestions. I particularly like the no point defense for Dreads and cruisers. That alone could be enough to bring significant use to the Escort/Picket dessies.
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2009-02-24 18:28
Quote:
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On 2009-02-24 13:56, Carns wrote:
We had this same conversation at the end of 1.481.
[Suggestion snip]
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I generally agree with those. If anything, the dreads should be sitting somewhere far at the back, lobbing death into the melee and at opposing dreads, whilst the smaller ships support them and fend off opposing skirmishers/missiles. Their heavily restricted movement should deter them from always being an optimum choice, just as stations nowadays aren't the bread-and-butter unit due to their size and speed.
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mannythepogs
Grand Admiral
Pitch Black
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 140
From: mbllanes
| Posted: 2009-02-24 21:59
The introduction of the Core Weapons Killed the Smaller Ship Usage.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2009-02-24 22:11
Quote:
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On 2009-02-24 21:59, mbllanes - Dark Vader wrote:
The introduction of the Core Weapons Killed the Smaller Ship Usage.
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Except they can easily dodge them outside of 300 gu.
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Lark of Serenity
Grand Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: June 02, 2002
Posts: 2516
| Posted: 2009-02-24 22:52
i like a lot of Kanmans suggestions.
generally speaking though...
really its asking ourselves - A) what game do we want and B) in this game, what do we want each of these ships to do/be?
we have a few options for both of these
A1) a recreation of world war 2 naval combat in a space setting
A2) a conception of what space combat will actually be like
A3) ridiculous random fun house
A1 is relatively straightforward, though some people seem to have misconceptions about what ships did back then. if we did A1, youd want to put bombs on all of the dreadnaughts and cruisers and strip them from any other vessels. severly limit torpedoe class weapons on the upper ships but give them plenty of cannons. put point defense and torpedoe class weapons as the main purposes of frigates and destroyers, respectively. scouts a scout. stations... become islands in the pacific, so to speak?
A2 has a variety of different possibilities. i shant bother going into it
A3.... i think is what we had a version or two ago. no one liked it. lets not talk of it again.
Another way to look at this, what roles are there in the game? how can we break them down?
building
bombing
fighting
repair
capturing
we need to identify which ships make the most sense for each. builders are currently cruiser vessels dedicated to that task, which makes quite a bit of sense. so that should stay as is. repair likewise, though i think perhaps we should do as kanman said and strip repair ability from most of the non-repair specific vessels. Speaking of stations, i think we should lower their sublight speed. to like, 1gu/sec. its a station, not a heavily armoured dreadnaught. i would prefer it almost if they had 0 sublight movement capability and instead had to jump everywhere but that might be kind of dangerous to the people flying them. basically a station to me should be a moving, not-quite-a-planet planet - it provides infantry, repair, and a home to a fleet. depending on the tactical situation different stations are needed, but otherwise the premise stays the same.
the real breakdown then is where we want fighting, capturing, and bombing to be centered in the ship classes.
i also do think that there should be a limit somehow on the number of dreadnaughts a faction can field, perhaps relative to the number of players online. its not a fleet if all its got is dreadnaughts.
regardless, we need to make it so that A) a fleet of dreadnaughts will be slaughtered because there would be an easy counter to them (i nearly killed an AD with a carrier a few versions ago just by using a planet as cover, for instance - or perhaps make mines track larger targets faster?) B) make it so no fleet in their right mind would want to field a fleet of only one class of ship ever anyways.
some completely other random suggestion: i just thought of this - itd be neat if one factions ships couldnt jump without a particular ship in the region, like an anti-interdictor kind of... or even just an interdictor! the jump drive is only activated when tachyon particles are impacting a receptor, due to some technological crumminess? would mean they could jump out of interdictor fields if the dictor was on, but if it wasnt theyd be stuck unless a friendly interdictor were nearby....
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Russian Roulette with Muskets
Grand Admiral
Joined: September 04, 2002
Posts: 393
| Posted: 2009-02-24 23:31
I would like to add something, something that is ignored here way too often in you quest for balance:
What is DS aspiring to be?
A second eve? Well tough luck with that there is an eve already and it is most excelllent at being eve (eye candy, gameplay etc). DS WILL NEVER be a second eve, its simply lacking in far too many areas to achieve anything like that.
So, since DS can never be a good eve: STOP REQUESTING IT TO BE MORE LIKE EVE.
When i joined up, DS was about arcade style gameplay. Economy? Huh? Spawn ship, kill stuff. Glorious fun times.
SPAWN SHIP, KILL STUFF.
That is the very essence of what made DS a great game. All the other stuff (building up planets, conquering them) was just a means to facilitate more KILL STUFF. The rise of shipyards and the various attempt to creating any form of economy contributed greatly to ruining the "spawn ship, kill stuff" fun factor. So stop suggesting more of that, thx.
And thats that, lets talk topic now:
The current issue of dreadspace has 3 MAJOR reasons:
1.) You're working up your rank, for what? To STILL be flying the same old cruisers you have flown your whole career? We fly dreads because we CAN, we have spent a ton time getting to that point after all!
Ever since i got it i've almost exclusivly been flying the EAD, even back then when Kluth destroyers Clawed (haha...) you to death with CL2k's.
It was FUN nonetheless. Sure, dreads were cruiser food back then so it required skill to use them (skill being mostly choosing your targets wisely and knowing when to bail it once your energy/armor ran out) to any effect.
2.) Looks. Aesthetics.
Yes, i know, all you lot think about are stats and balance but here, face this:
A Lot of ships are visually displeasing insults to ones eyes. Example: UGTO Destroyer/Cruisers. Then the minor issue of naming. (ELITE Assault Dreads just has a better ring to it than Torpedo Cruiser.)
I will not fly a ship i find ugly. No matter the balance, if i'm required to sit behind it all the time, i want it to look freaking awesome! The EAD (Evil space whale/shark thingy) Looks awesome (or rather the -not agincourt- dread design of UGTO in general.) while the cruisers DO NOT.
I can't stand the looks of ICC and Kluth either (good reason to shoot them).
So from an Aesthetics point of view, im kinda set on the UGTO Dread line.
3.) Speed.
Or rather the lack off.
Once there was some guy, i don't know who, who thought it was a good idea to slow down every ship. Well duh... it wasn't.
Cruiser vs dread combat basically was always based on two advantages the cruiser had:
Comparable firepower in the form of torpedos and maneuverability.
A cruiser could outmaneuver the dread, avoiding the weapons arcs most of the time and dodging the heavy ordnance. In the event of getting close jumped, the cruisers were able to avoid eating a second volley by out-turning and outrunning the the dread weapons range fast enough.
Back to the "now":
Even though the cruiser, in relation to dreads, still is faster and more agile, it has lost its speed. It can't travel a given distance as fast in a given amount of time and so it takes longer to leave a dreads (significantly improved btw) weapons range, often resulting in "run and die or stay and die" scenarios.
Flying a cruiser over a dread simply has lost all its advantages.
ICC once stood for "I SEE Cruisers!" because cruisers (especialy ICC) rocked.
Now its about combat dreads. THE LOLMOBILES (!) have become a mainstay since the cruisers started to suck. That should be your first clue you seriously messed something up.
You took away the small ships major weapon against dreads: getting in and out of weapon range quickly.
So, undo the all across the board speed nerf and you will see cruisers and destroyers more often.
And please introduce cool new models for the factions ships and introduce more weapon setups.
And as a side note: If you make dreads into trebuchets, make sure they can actually HIT something at the ranges you so eagerly propose.
As it stands, a dread can't hit the broadside of another dread once 900+ GU and a decent pilot are involved. let alone anything smaller.
And stop suggestion balancing changes based of economy or such crap. It does not change the fact that a dread swarm is best, it just makes it more annoying to get one. and annoyance is something you can't elevate to a gameplay mechanic because all it does is chase away your customers.
[ This Message was edited by: Russian Roulette with Muskets on 2009-02-24 23:38 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Russian Roulette with Muskets on 2009-02-25 06:52 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Shigernafy on 2009-02-25 21:35 ]
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2009-02-25 00:41
Highly dubious levels of profanity aside, Russian may have a point with the speed thing.
One main issue with turning dreads into trebuchets is that they don't share the same disadvantages of real artillery: Minimum range. Their weapons just become more accurate as you get closer, so a long range cannon ship simply becomes incredibly lethal at all ranges, rather than being vulnerable to close-range attack, which is what makes attacking a dreadnaught such a thorny proposition. Perhaps a minimum range limit on a dreadnaught's hypothetical main armament would help to ease this?
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Russian Roulette with Muskets
Grand Admiral
Joined: September 04, 2002
Posts: 393
| Posted: 2009-02-25 02:15
well, only if the weapons are effective at long range.
I'm not appaled to the idea of flying an, what in reality, will be a firesupport plattform but then you will have to make it an effective one. that means weapons that will actualy hit and whe nthey do that they will actualy do damage.
[ This Message was edited by: Russian Roulette with Muskets on 2009-02-25 02:29 ]
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linus11vf1j
2nd Rear Admiral
Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 3
| Posted: 2009-02-25 03:36
Kanman has a very good role enforcing system which is good, and will bring other ships into play for sure. Also the turning radius correlation should be put into effect (although I do believe it already is). I guess I'm kind of reiterating it, but adding weapon specifics to help that role.
This was made up before Lark of Serenity posted, but a lot of the stuff written here disagrees with his A1 statement, but agrees with Russian!
Also yeah, kill the speed nerf on all the ships except the dreads, no speed for smaller ships means no use.
I think it is important to note that all the ships, weapons and support systems in the game are based off of very VERY old technology (cannons and unguided torps were used in WWII, but not anymore ... ) with a few modern gadgets (stealth, PD, and missiles). So I think the weapons should reflect this. If we want modern naval combat, modern replica weapons should be added.
First up, cannons and lasers:
We all want to balance this between ships. So why not model each cannon after their reality counter part. HAVE DIFFERENT TYPES OF CANNONS... Really big damage and slow recharge (recharge as fast as a tach drive) ones for Dreads (like the 46cm cannon on the Yamato class) that have a minimum range. Cruisers, destroyers, and frigates all kind of fall in this middle class of ship. So they DO have a variety of roles, and it can be shown with a variety of small to medium caliber weapons ranging from scout equivalent weapons for point defense and scout defense (except lots more of them), to a 20cm equivalent gun to hit heavier ships. Scouts should have really fast and low damage guns that fit the range of about 7.5cm, or 8.8cm tank shells with automated systems/belt feed systems).
Also an important note for cannons, is their speed and range. I see too often in game that we make the super powerful big cannon a super slow , short range and useless piece of trash. The big dread cannons and lasers should work great at long range (I'll say 2000-4000gu since real long distance of 7 000-10 000gu would mean planets would have to be farther away by a lot), and have projectile speeds like their reality battleship counterparts (1000gu per second which means a round fired at you from 2000gu away will reach the enemy in 2 seconds like a regular artillery gun). Just that they reload like tach drives. It takes time to reload a new shell. But if you hit something, it's an instant kill if its on the right part of the ship. This really puts dreads in their role of long range naval bombardment and sniping. It also adds a weakness where a small ship that's not detected by scouts or other patrolling craft gets ambushed by cruisers, dessies, and other craft within the 2000gu, and it has to use the smaller guns. But the smaller guns don't have as big a firing arc, and the ship isn't as maneuverable to use them effectively. So it becomes vulnerable at a realistic short range and the weapons are not over-powerful.
Secondly, missles and torps:
I think the torps are fine as they are, although plopping them on ships should really only be on the fore or aft arcs of ships. We can have hordes of newbie scouts flying in an easy mission of tight formation torpedo running on a dread or other bigger ship. The Scout has only 1 forward torp weapon and they can fly away back to a support ship/station when they run out of torps.
Also with them being fore and aft, if let's say you're well stealthed, you can launch one or two, or a bunch to give a bad dose of pain while requiring skill to lead your target. Just like what you're suppose to do with an unguided torp. Just that I'd not allow them on Dreads since they got the big guns, and a bunch of smaller guns, and they can't maneuver into position if it's fore and aft. I'd toss them on destroyers, frigates and corvettes because they can maneuver very easily into firing position. Just have the ammunition stores accordingly, and leave them all as deadly as they always are on max. If you're found sitting on a planet afk and someone manages to torp your scout while it's at the border of factions. You deserve to be humiliated by a slow moving munition.
Missles! This is just about exactly the same as my cannons and lasers idea with a noted exception. Big missles don't have to be stopped by just lasers, but you can gun it down (wouldn't it be cool to see a panicking escort dessie fire all it's broadside guns in a blanket of flak to protect itself from an on coming super missile and barely surviving and missing the explosion radii), intercept it with smaller faster missiles, but overall you better react fast to that super big cruise missile heading your way or you're toast in 5 seconds (I'd say the missiles from dreads flies at 400gu per second, and requires a 1 second arming time, but instant kills you). Also the smaller missles all fly faster than the dread super missile, and usually (not 100%) smart enough to intercept. This adds a modern element to the game, and countermeasures to the bigger is better, but also requires that you be aware of your surroundings for a much larger area than just your eyes can see. Thus requiring communication.
PD, stealth, unique new crap. There really isn't anything not covered already. PD = dessies and cruisers, and generally smaller craft. You can still harrass the dread if you like too. Killing stuff, everyone has an opportunity, you just have to MAKE THAT OPPORTUNITY. Stealth, if you like wolf-pack stealth hunting, then there's space for you. Don't get caught by a patrol, and torp to your heart's content. Unique crap, there's not much that's SUPER unique. Mostly different names. "Ablative armor" vs "active shields" one recharges faster than the other, while the other takes more hits. ECM vs cloak. Both do the same thing, but once you fire something, well ... time to run for a bit and come back later!
I think that's all for now, this is based on experience from my last gaming of the last 2-week trial, and previous experience with I think 1.484.
[ This Message was edited by: linus11vf1j on 2009-02-25 03:45 ]
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jedi42
Grand Admiral
Evil Empires Inc.
Joined: February 25, 2002
Posts: 478
From: jedi42
| Posted: 2009-02-25 05:08
Faustus knows best.
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Pakhos[+R]
Chief Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 1352
From: Clean room lab
| Posted: 2009-02-25 11:15
This is his game, infact this game belongs to his company. He knows the best about how to code the freaking game. I saw him making a patch in 15 mins to avoid some weird stuff in mv. Then he knows best about his game. You know he has a developer team , so he can get confused too with so many bad/good ideas that people (dev) gives to him.
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