| Author |
Some UGTO ships needs to be weakened |
deathblave
Marshal
Joined: October 10, 2007
Posts: 268
|  Posted: 2009-02-06 00:30
hahahaha i never caised to be amazed by all this hahah
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Meko
Grand Admiral
Joined: March 03, 2004
Posts: 1956
From: Vancouver
| Posted: 2009-02-06 04:34
i agree DB. outrageous.
and yes jack, the EAD is overpowered. sorry that your favourit ship might get the nerf, cause it does need it. playing ICC, ugto AND kluth this patch, ive seen all sides of it (and others).
simple fact is, an ead at 0m/s went head to head with an AD and a combat dread... and heres the breakdown.
the AD, even with reenforing front arc, had 5% hull at the end of the fight. the CD and the AD were firing on the same arc. the CD was in laser range. and u tell me the EAD isnt overpowered? yeah.
if the EAD had the same power issues the AD has, then i wouldnt care, however it does not, so ill point it out.
2nd thing, if kluth are expected to be the hit and runners, give us enough armour to last more than 1 alpha plz. just 2 daddy, thats all i want.
3rd thing, your a staff member, and a dev, so if there is a use for chitenous armour.... spell it. srly wanna hear this one. lemme grab some popcorn first though
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2009-02-06 07:48
Firstly, in almost all cases where a player was in an AD, and another person was in an EAD and going toe-to-toe in beta, the AD won. We've done absolutely nothing to either ship since those original tests.
The EAD also has power issues. Despite all of you thinking it can go on and on forever whilst firing, the only thing you can fire and gain energy whilst doing is the 4 QST's. Anything else drains energy, even at a stand still. When you start firing more than one bank of weapons, the energy drains very quickly indeed.
Secondly, you HAVE the extra armour to survive. Did you not read Sparkle's testing? We've buffed K'luth armour INSANELY, it's no-where near what it used to be before now. Infact, these are the strongest K'luth we've EVER seen defencive-wise. You guys NEVER seem happy with what we give you.
We've also given you Chitin armour to help with the 'surviving an extra alpha' deal; and I believe I just gave you a use for it. We've seen it used plenty of times, and again, just because you don't see a use for it, doesn't mean there isn't one.
@Sparkle;
Thank you for your testing. The reason the fore armour was going down was because of the arc bug (wherein the front armour takes damage from projectiles for an unknown reason). The damage gets duplicated to the front, not shared, so if you got through to hull on one side, you'd be just fine (infact, you'd have a bonus actually, as the EAD would be losing armour on the front as well).
[edit]
I just went into game with =Pegasus= (thank you for your time and help) and took the following screenshots:
First shot:
Me : http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/120459/DS%20Screenshots/EADTest/Jack_00000103.jpg
Pegasus : http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/120459/DS%20Screenshots/EADTest/Client%202009-02-06%2014-20-18-84.jpg
Second shot:
Me : http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/120459/DS%20Screenshots/EADTest/Jack_00000104.jpg
Pegasus: http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/120459/DS%20Screenshots/EADTest/Client%202009-02-06%2014-20-43-37.jpg
Third shot:
Me : http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/120459/DS%20Screenshots/EADTest/Jack_00000105.jpg
Pegasus: http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/120459/DS%20Screenshots/EADTest/Client%202009-02-06%2014-21-15-32.jpg
Fourth shot:
Me : http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/120459/DS%20Screenshots/EADTest/Jack_00000106.jpg
Pegasus: http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/120459/DS%20Screenshots/EADTest/Client%202009-02-06%2014-21-40-82.jpg
There's your testing. Considering the range, and the fact he was uncloak, wasn't rapidly firing (just a single spacebar), and we weren't moving (so manuverability wasn't taken into account) - I feel that's a fairly accurate test, and that the result were expected.
[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash *Jack* on 2009-02-06 08:43 ]
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Sixkiller
Marshal
Courageous Elite Commandos
Joined: May 11, 2005
Posts: 1786
From: Netherlands
| Posted: 2009-02-06 09:05
No offense jack, but you DID notice he was using enhancements for 36% extra armor?
THIRTY SIX?
I mean, my first response was if 4 kluth dreads cant kill an EAD, they just plain suck. Not all of their points are valid, but your test isnt valid either.
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Daedalus Bum
Marshal
Joined: March 26, 2004
Posts: 86
From: Finland
| Posted: 2009-02-06 09:09
Its so funny when all Devs simply just dont listen.
Topic didint say you have nerfed something in purpose/or mistake.
Jack read the topic once again let me help ya here... *Some UGTO ships needs to be weakened*.
Ok so lets see, that simply means that we arent saying that any devs have latlely nerfed kluth or ICC or whatever. But apperently for a longer time then it seems that EAD and possibly some other ships are simply to powerfull compared to other factions.
And WTH with all these values and numbers. Look at the facts ppl are complaining cause the problems is there.
My opinion is that EAD is stronger or as strong as a Kluth station.'
Yesterday 2 EAD jump me and i had 3 or more supy ships suping me plus i were in a Hive. they got me down to 74% hull until i bailed out. And that didint take long for em. (not saying that as a station i should we knocked the juno 2 of them, just comparing this situation with the 5vs1).
And lets see this topic started with a complain of 5vs1 situation.
So how come a EAD can take more dmg than a station even if the station had alot more Repair ships helping it?
And i dont wana hear som crap about Values and arcs, not intrested in your numbers and thoughts and future wifes...
There is aprenelty somekind of Problem with something, am not a Dev or Mod or anything i know nothing of DS codes values numbers. So i have no ide what is wrong (mabye nothing). But still...
Its time for devs to look into this problem as they should do.
And if it happens to be that we are wrong that everything is OK!
Then fine i will admit that i were wrong but and keep playing but you realy should start acting as a DEV.
A dev should not act as there is nothing wrong and say to another Paying player that they "need to use their head". Almost insulting to read such things.
If Devs cant do their job i think they should be taken of the rights to be one!
Peace!
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2009-02-06 09:11
Quote:
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On 2009-02-06 09:05, Sixkiller wrote:
No offense jack, but you DID notice he was using enhancements for 36% extra armor?
THIRTY SIX?
I mean, my first response was if 4 kluth dreads cant kill an EAD, they just plain suck. Not all of their points are valid, but your test isnt valid either.
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Yes I did, and did you notice my enhancements? Did you also notice that he had a lot of manoeuvability based enhancements that were going to complete waste in that test due to the fact he was just sitting there? The K'luth in that test was at a disadvantage, one that was quite honestly, not worth more than the 25% hull that I ended up having over him. If it had been a normal fight, I would had been toast. I don't know about you, but two standard CL's don't do a lot of damage from the rear - and the EAD turns like a pig.
My test was extremely valid. I have no idea why you think it's not, or state it's not, when it most deffinately, is. I spoke to Pegasus earlier, and he stated that there were three groups, all attacking different sides.
If Nim was able to dodge much of the fire for the remainder of his JD recharge time, then that's perfectly fine.
Also, we have no idea if any of the players were de-synced, as all of the tests show that under normal circumstances, they both do comparable damage.
What the test is proving, is that the EAD is not overpowered under any circumstances. Trying to prove it is overpowered because of another bug, or because of something external to the fight, is NOT ok.
That's like me saying the K'luth and ICC need a nerf because the arc bug affects UGTO the most. There may be nothing wrong with K'luth, ICC and UGTO - but I'm stating that they ARE overpowered, because of something external to their balancing - which is what you are all doing.
@Daedalus, all you're doing is proving my point further.
I'll repeat this again.
Every test done, and every test done in the past, and ever, has shown the EAD to be perfectly fine. Even flying it today, yesterday, the week before that, and before that, I find myself sitting there thinking it's probably one of the more balanced ships in the game at current. I don't feel invicible, and I don't feel like I do WTFBBQ amounts of damage. It sits in an area that's quite comfortable, which is emphasised by the fact that we haven't touched it what-so-ever since release.
I've had my ass handed to me by a Mandable. Had my rear armour ripped to shreads, and there was nothing I could do about it because the EAD turns like a planet. Under your reasoning, ALL K'luth are overpowered because they can do this.
If the original players had all attacked from the same arc, the EAD pilot would be dead by now. They didn't. They weren't co-ordinated. Blaming the fact that every ounce of luck, was on that EAD pilots side, is not a reason to shout "NERF EAD, IZ OVERPOWERDZ!".
This is a single case, and there have been no others. I've seen two Siphons completely SHRED a station, UGTO and ICC alike - yet nobody complains when they're sitting there point blank taking all the damage in the world from that said station.
This is an absurde bandwaggon, and the constant comments made by quite a few people in this thread show little testing, and a lot of theorycrafting based on nothing but thin air, and a single accurance of an absurd mount of luck; where no-one knows if anyone was de-synced at all.
You all seem to think we don't play at all. When we're in there just as you are, watching all of this from all sides of the fence. We SEE what K'luth, ICC and UGTO do. We see two Siphons, or two AD's do the EXACT same as two EAD's do to a station. When you are all doing the exact same, it really shocks and surprises me that you turn around and single out one faction for being able to do exactly what you're stating just because of this single occurance of insane luck.
That is not a valid reason to cry nerf, and to state an entire faction, especially some of its more assault-based ships, are overpowered.
Every case of testing has shown it to be absolutely fine. I really cannot emphesis enough that ONE singled out case of luck, and bad execution, is not enough to state that an entire faction and it's assault-based ships are overpowered.
You're asking us to trust that single case, over months of playtime, playtesting, and series of tests that prove otherwise.
[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash *Jack* on 2009-02-06 09:33 ]
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Daedalus Bum
Marshal
Joined: March 26, 2004
Posts: 86
From: Finland
| Posted: 2009-02-06 09:47
And am just now saying, if tests are FINE.
Why still is ppl complaining that its not FINE?
Mabye because its not? yea EAD rear is weak i have noticed that many times But still EAD should not be overpowering a station like its was nothing.
If kluth takes a Krill Siphon against UGTO sup station outcome would be not the same.
Not saying that you need to nerf the EAD to a weak ship.
Leave the EAD as it is its balanced but simply just...
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Give Kluth and ICC a ship that can be compared to EAD
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Siphon should be its compring ship but somehow Siphons Forward armor is as weak as EAD rear armor. 
But if you Jack think your baby EAD is going to be the Ultimate ship in DS.
Well we cant do anything to that. We prob need to swallow our problems and move on.
Buuut plz fix the other bugs and problems etc. SY using, core weapons, desync.
Peace!
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2009-02-06 10:03
Quote:
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On 2009-02-06 09:47, Daedalus Bum wrote:
And am just now saying, if tests are FINE.
Why still is ppl complaining that its not FINE?
Mabye because its not? yea EAD rear is weak i have noticed that many times But still EAD should not be overpowering a station like its was nothing.
If kluth takes a Krill Siphon against UGTO sup station outcome would be not the same.
Not saying that you need to nerf the EAD to a weak ship.
Leave the EAD as it is its balanced but simply just...
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Give Kluth and ICC a ship that can be compared to EAD
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Siphon should be its compring ship but somehow Siphons Forward armor is as weak as EAD rear armor.
But if you Jack think your baby EAD is going to be the Ultimate ship in DS.
Well we cant do anything to that. We prob need to swallow our problems and move on.
Buuut plz fix the other bugs and problems etc. SY using, core weapons, desync.
Peace!
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People are saying it's not fine because this is an affect called bandwaggoning. There's one perceived problem, that doesn't exist (it's just a few players complaining they couldn't kill a single person, one time), and everyone else is saying "YEAH!" because deep down, they want an easier time.
And yes, if K'luth take a Siphon and Krill up against a station, it will be the same outcome. You don't seem to realise just how painful your ships are. I've seen this countless times, wherein you bring two ships out, and completely destroy one of our stations.
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Give Kluth and ICC a ship that can be compared to EAD
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AD and Siphon are compared to the EAD. It's just in your head that you think it's not.
The EAD is not an ultimate ship. I call it 'my baby', because I love it to death, but I don't want it to be overpowered. Infact, I even stated that the torpedoes don't seem to do enough damage at range, but I let it go, because it's not designed to do uber damage at long range (and it doesn't do uber damage at long range).
[ This Message was edited by: BackSlash *Jack* on 2009-02-06 10:07 ]
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2009-02-06 10:55
Quote:
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On 2009-02-06 10:03, BackSlash *Jack* wrote:
People are saying it's not fine because this is an affect called bandwaggoning. There's one perceived problem, that doesn't exist (it's just a few players complaining they couldn't kill a single person, one time), and everyone else is saying "YEAH!" because deep down, they want an easier time.
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Drat, beaten to it.
The thing is, if the EAD has not been adjusted for a fair while now, why is it that it's suddenly unstoppable? Surely if it's been this good for all this time, UGTO would have breezed their way to victory in the MV long before now? The only conclusion I can come to, seeing as several people have tested this in a more empirical manner than throwing things together in a huge melee, is that this incident was a fluke and everyone's calling for the waaahmbulance without stopping and checking their facts.
[EDIT]*fails at spelling*
[ This Message was edited by: Gejaheline on 2009-02-06 10:56 ]
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Daedalus Bum
Marshal
Joined: March 26, 2004
Posts: 86
From: Finland
| Posted: 2009-02-06 10:58
I do understand you point that Siphon and AD is compared to EAD, but i am sure of it that if you ask ICC and kluth players that if they think they are all equal powered and kinda sure they wont agree whit you.
You said that ppl complain after this once they could not kill a player.
Cant agree whit that this have happened alot. Always they just not post a topic to you.
Well one reason for that is becuase as stubborn as you are you just will say that EVERYTHING IS FINE!
Dunno if you afraid to admit something or why you keep defending the fact that there is nothing wrong.
Simply jack turn ja UN fleet over to Kluth for a week or longer even and fly whit kluth players and expreience it yourself instead of looking at those darn numbers.
BTW this is not the matrix and you are not the one! LoL
And for the record kluth dont want this to be fixed so that a single kluth dread can pwn a fleet of ugto, we just want these kinda of situation as 5vs1 etc. alot more to stop cause its not just FINE.
But i say it once more play as kluth for a longer time and see it for youself.
Make Siphon or AD your new "Baby" for awhile then.
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Meko
Grand Admiral
Joined: March 03, 2004
Posts: 1956
From: Vancouver
| Posted: 2009-02-06 11:13
Quote:
| People are saying it's not fine because this is an affect called bandwaggoning. There's one perceived problem, that doesn't exist (it's just a few players complaining they couldn't kill a single person, one time), and everyone else is saying "YEAH!" because deep down, they want an easier time. |
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Pardon me? thats the 2nd dev to playerbase insult in this thread. i am not a sheep, i play all 3 factions, and there is a problem.
however ill differ from 'the masses' on this part and point out the EAD is a great ship.
Give the AD more energy.
Give the siphon another front arc of armour.
ladys and gents... we have les balance.
~~~~~~~~~~
to return to the chitenous armour point, sure taking the AHR off and putting the chits on will give u marginally more armour. however to do so is SUICIDE. ever been kluth facing flux? when your armour melts after the 1st or 2nd volly, that flux is raping your systems and you suddenly are unable to cloak.
so no you havnt given me a use for chitenous armour, youve given me excel statistics for them.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2009-02-06 11:30
Quote:
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On 2009-02-06 10:58, Daedalus Bum wrote:
And for the record kluth dont want this to be fixed so that a single kluth dread can pwn a fleet of ugto, we just want these kinda of situation as 5vs1 etc. alot more to stop cause its not just FINE.
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If you want to win those 5vs1 sittuations, don't attack a ship from all sides where it's able to survive that kind of damage the most. Attack it from a single facing, and it'll die in one, or maybe two alphas from all of you.
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JBud
Marshal
Joined: February 26, 2008
Posts: 1900
From: Behind you.
| Posted: 2009-02-06 11:37
Quote:
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On 2009-02-06 07:48, BackSlash *Jack* wrote:
@Sparkle & JBud;fixt
Thank you for your testing. The reason the fore armour was going down was because of the arc bug (wherein the front armour takes damage from projectiles for an unknown reason). The damage gets duplicated to the front, not shared, so if you got through to hull on one side, you'd be just fine (infact, you'd have a bonus actually, as the EAD would be losing armour on the front as well).
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Deltabacon
Fleet Admiral
Joined: August 17, 2007
Posts: 395
From: Liverpool, Great Britain
| Posted: 2009-02-06 11:43
If you cannot believe Jack's answer, go in-game and test yourself under the same conditions Jack did. Go on. Now come back to us and explain.
Jack and the other devs have had to put up with week after week of moans, complaints and other UNWARRANTED AND UN-TRUE rubbish. Believe it or not, but the devs work for US. They put their free time in, without payment, to make this game great. If anything, I should be surprised there isnt a dozen threads thanking everyone for the new versions. You all moan so much, that I wonder how you would all react if the game was reverted to .483. The game is much, much better now, and if you cannot swallow the fact that you do need skill and co-ordination to play this game, go and learn those characteristics. Yes, Darkspace does have a steep learning curve. But moaning and whining in groups like this takes precious time away from the developers to get the next patch out. I do wonder just how much work you people think goes into this game. It is alot. If you do not like the moderators, developers or admins, fine. You keep your flames to yourself.
The Developers have answered your questions throughly. Maybe you should stop questioning their answers.
Now quit whining and stalking the forums, and go and play.
EDIT: Ninja'd by JBud.
[ This Message was edited by: Deltaflyer the second on 2009-02-06 11:45 ]
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MrSparkle
Marshal
Joined: August 13, 2001
Posts: 1912
From: mrsparkle
| Posted: 2009-02-06 11:53
Guys listen, there is most definitely a problem going on, but it's not with any particular ship. The EAD does take damage under normal circumstances. There is something else going on in the MV that's causing damage to either be negated entirely (always due to desync) or some damage not registering (not sure what causes this).
There is no other explanation. I witnessed firsthand an UGTO missile destroyer only take 50% (roughtly, it might have been 53% or so) total armor damage from a siphon alpha strike. That is just not right and we all know it. That's not the same as doing no damage due to desync either. Something is going on that causes damage to get all screwed up at times. Some damage gets registered, and some doesn't.
I tested this personally with JBud and posted the results as accurately as I could. If I'm off it's maybe 1% of armor due to delay and armor repair.
Meko I'm sure is not lying when he says an EAD took an AD down to 5% hull while sustaining fire from both that AD and CD (what was the final result btw? The EAD was destroyed?). That tells me either the AD and CD do not do enough damage, or that something else is causing damage to be reduced. Most likely it's the 2nd one, because there's no way that an AD+CD together don't surpass the damage of 1 mandible, and it can't be mere coincidence that I've witnessed other strange damage output. There are many stories just like the AD+CD vs EAD scenario. They are not lying, but the problem is not what everyone thinks it is.
What I want everyone to know, the devs especially, is that these problems didn't really begin until the January 6th patch. Ever since then desync issues have become a plague, and damage is all screwed up. Please look through what was changed with that patch, because I suspect that's where the problem is. Before that patch these issues didn't exist.
[ This Message was edited by: MrSparkle on 2009-02-06 11:56 ]
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