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Darkspace: A Skill Based Game? |
Drafell
Grand Admiral
Mythica
Joined: May 30, 2003
Posts: 2449
From: United Kingdom
|  Posted: 2008-06-11 11:45
An interesting article for those that want to know more about this topic:
MMO Class Design: Up With Hybrids! An Economic Argument
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It's gone now, no longer here...Yet still I see, and still I fear.rnrn
rnrn
DarkSpace Developer - Retired
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Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
| Posted: 2008-06-11 13:21
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On 2008-06-11 06:37, Drafell wrote:
Believe me, I have had these thoughts and concerns running through my head almost 24/7 for a long time. |
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How's that social life working out for you?
(sorry, couldn't resist)
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Coeus
Grand Admiral
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: March 22, 2006
Posts: 2815
From: Philly
| Posted: 2008-06-11 15:00
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On 2008-06-08 18:13, 1000 Unit Block wrote:
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On 2008-06-08 18:11, BackSlash *Jack* wrote:
and you'll rarely see a level 60 character, being killed by a level 30 one.
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Navyfield.
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Asheron's Call
They've been doing that style of skill (aka "Twitch") based combat for 9 years. And its still going.
And another thing. Comparing DS to any other MMO on the market is sheer utter f***ing ignorance. I'm sorry. DS is completely unlike any other game out there, which is why I was drawn to it. Making it more & more like all the other games is why I don't play it anymore. DS is its own game, stop trying to be like everyone else & design it the way it fraking works.
[ This Message was edited by: Uncle Coeus on 2008-06-11 15:02 ]
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2008-06-11 16:11
FYI, this is the way DS originally worked - Dreads where roughly as twice as powerful as cruisers (if not more), etc, etc...
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-Shadowalker-™
Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: September 23, 2007
Posts: 709
From: Shadows
| Posted: 2008-06-11 16:14
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On 2008-06-08 14:22, _x$witchBladex_ the Rum Loving Pirate wrote:
Should new players be able to get easy kills? By no means no, especially against older players who know what they are doing. But, should new players be forced to have 100 deaths before they get a single kill? Hell no.
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This is true, if anyone looks at my profile, they will see that my kills:killed ratio is 5:185. 4 of those killes were when i had my coupon when i first applied for ds, and the other was when 3 crusiers were battling another crusier and i happened to get the last lucky shot. Of cousre thats another reason i dont ever really use the mv anymore. I hope that dosent hurt Other players, but i might come back.
One time i was in beta playing a K'luth and i was in a frig, i approched a gangilla and asked if i could see waht the dammage was if i alpahed. He said yes so i pressed space bar. Nothing happend. I asked what could 5 disruptors 4 am torps 2 psi could do to you and said that a frig was not desinged to hurt a dread. So, i wounder what another dread fring that same thing would do to that dread. Would it do difrent or not. I know that this is a little off, but just because this is this does not mean that this is that. If you get what i mean. But that would be making (as said in page1) that this is becoming a class basewd game and not a skill based game. I know i havent been in ds for long but i have played alot of games before, and ds is falling. And please don critisice me.
[ This Message was edited by: seeker(prophet angel)*FA* on 2008-06-11 16:26 ]
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Coeus
Grand Admiral
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: March 22, 2006
Posts: 2815
From: Philly
| Posted: 2008-06-11 19:13
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On 2008-06-11 16:11, BackSlash *Jack* wrote:
FYI, this is the way DS originally worked - Dreads where roughly as twice as powerful as cruisers (if not more), etc, etc...
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A) There were a lot less dreads then.
B) There were more players then.
C) Was this not when DS had a publisher & was advertised & whatnot?
D) Isn't this whole thing just one big de-evolution then? Despite the repeted statements that de-evolution isn't what is wanted from the devs?
E) Were there not countless complaints about this which eventually led to the most popular revolution of DS - 480?
F) In my honest opinion, as a formerly paying player, I still have not seen one piece of evidence that makes this model of ship-to-ship combat plausable in any way, shape, or form. It won't draw in new players, it is highly doubtful it will bring old players back, and it is not looking like it is going to keep people here.
G) If I may quote a movie to sum up the current situation. Quote:
| The first time someone calls you a horse, you punch him in the mouth. The second time someone calls you a horse, you call him a jerk. The third time someone calls you a horse, well maybe its time you went shopping for a saddle. |
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How many more ways can we say it?
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Shigernafy
Admiral
Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 5726
From: The Land of Taxation without Representation
| Posted: 2008-06-11 20:07
Call me stubborn and dogmatic,.. and repetitive, but we haven't had any real in-depth testing of the system. Or at least, not with our final layout changes and working damage.
Also, are people complaining about the 2:1 ratio of combat strengths, or the specific strengths and weaknesses of the various factions? That is, is the problem really that it takes two cruisers to take down a dread, or the fact that the ICC seem weak? Or the Kluth are overly strong? Or whatever the current complaint is; I've not been paying a whole lot of attention lately. The fundamental system may not be as flawed as everyone fears; specific issues of balance may be.
I also still haven't seen a very clear solution proposed. The general complaint seems to be that the 2:1 system expands class differences too far, and pilots want cruisers to be able to handily beat a dread if one pilot is a moron, or even a destroyer beat a dread if the pilot is a real moron and the dessie awesome. But doesn't this make dreads obsolete? That means that some good pilots could dominate any dread pilots in cruisers or dessies.
Yes, we don't want to reward mediocrity and make it easy to suck and still win; obviously, skill should play a role. But it already does, through torp detting, dodging, tracking, and being smart enough to have a backup plan, a wingman, or a fleet. Dictating the terms of the engagement still matters. Managing the space makes a difference. All these things are better performed by a skilled pilot.
If you are so insistent that the system is broken, what would you do to fix it? Do you have a ratio you prefer? How would you compress the ranks, and why do you think it would make a big difference? Should we ditch ratios totally and just go for placing gadgets willy nilly? How much more powerful should bigger ships be, and if bigger ships are easily able to be bested by a smaller ship, what is the appropriate cost for them (ex: each level increases in strength 20% and cost 15%)? And how would you respond to the criticism that earning rank should be rewarded with bigger and better ships.. not just bigger ones.
+1 class shouldn't mean instant win. But it should mean there's an advantage. Enough of one to compensate for the cost, to reward the effort, and to justify the variety. Or should we just get 1 bomber, 1 torp, 1 missile, 1 beam, 1 EW, and 1 mine ship on each faction, all equally equipped, and just let everyone whack each other with those? Whoever wins is obviously more skilled, so perfect.
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Coeus {NCX-Charger}
Admiral, I can't read,
Sundered Weimeriners
Joined: February 16, 2004
Posts: 3635
From: South Philly
| Posted: 2008-06-12 10:10
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On 2008-06-11 20:07, Shigernafy wrote:
Call me stubborn and dogmatic,.. and repetitive, but we haven't had any real in-depth testing of the system. Or at least, not with our final layout changes and working damage. |
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Fine, you're stubborn & dogmatic... and repetitive... and right. However I never said that the system was tested enough - and I freely admit that I haven't assisted in the testing in the least bit, and I'll get to that in a minute.
Quote:
| Also, are people complaining about the 2:1 ratio of combat strengths, or the specific strengths and weaknesses of the various factions? That is, is the problem really that it takes two cruisers to take down a dread, or the fact that the ICC seem weak? Or the Kluth are overly strong? Or whatever the current complaint is; I've not been paying a whole lot of attention lately. The fundamental system may not be as flawed as everyone fears; specific issues of balance may be.
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The 2:1 ratio of combat strengths - the entire basis of the system is fundamentally flawed from the ground up. It spawns an entire basis of "Victory through superior firepower" which in war is just fine, but in a game it stalls development of player skills, stifles any new blood, and delimits the variety available. In addition to this, you have to look at it from a population standpoint. Assume that when the patch hits & hits with the 2:1 ratio system in place and as well balanced as can be following the 2:1 line of logic. We have what - 20 players? Almost all of them dread-capable? So you have dreadspace. Whoop-de-do. So now we've got new blood coming in, and old blood coming back. They fly in - WHAMMO, pwnt by dreads. They don't stick around - I wouldn't. Population stays stagnant. You cannot redesign an existing game based around what you think the population might be IF you are successful in bringing back people and KEEPING THEM!
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| I also still haven't seen a very clear solution proposed. The general complaint seems to be that the 2:1 system expands class differences too far, and pilots want cruisers to be able to handily beat a dread if one pilot is a moron, or even a destroyer beat a dread if the pilot is a real moron and the dessie awesome. But doesn't this make dreads obsolete? That means that some good pilots could dominate any dread pilots in cruisers or dessies. |
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With the current count of gagets & strength of armor? Yes, absolutely. Which is why the current gaget count & armor strength SUCKS. It has sucked from the very moment of conception. Why? Because the individual shots don't matter. They don't count for squat. The ONLY way that DS combat will work again is if we go back to the old values & ways of things. I think that much would have been clear by now - the level system just doesn't work. I'll say it again for you all to absorb it a moment. GAGET LEVELS DO NOT WORK IN DARKSPACE! They overly complicate a game dynamic that is only fun if it is produced in a simplified and meaningful way. IE: Make every shot count.
Gone are the days when every ship was as equally combat viable as the other because A) The ship was taylored to suit the player's play style, and B) No ship could easily overpower another - save for the infamous Assault class dread point-jumps. Even then, a good pilot could survive one of those and come back and eliminate an untalented EAD/AD/Siphon pilot.
Quote:
| Yes, we don't want to reward mediocrity and make it easy to suck and still win; obviously, skill should play a role. But it already does, through torp detting, dodging, tracking, and being smart enough to have a backup plan, a wingman, or a fleet. Dictating the terms of the engagement still matters. Managing the space makes a difference. All these things are better performed by a skilled pilot. |
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No, it really doesn't. Its sad to say, but skill in DS has taken a sore sidetrack to superior firepower & availability of gagets. torp detting is minimally effective due to the sheer amount of armor, with the number of gagets that abound in dreads in that time you're waiting for your torps to track to target and waiting for the right time to det you're having entire 480 fleets worth of firepower being dumped onto your head, dodging is margionally difficult since torp tracking doesn't exist & missiles are... well missiles. With cannons you're either far enough away to dodge easily, or in too close to dodge at all. With the population levels as they are finding an enemy is the only term of engagement that matters, and as for wingman - no one even goes INTO combat without 5-6 people with them because everyone is too terrified to die thanks to the insane resource lost penalty.
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| If you are so insistent that the system is broken, what would you do to fix it? Do you have a ratio you prefer? How would you compress the ranks, and why do you think it would make a big difference? Should we ditch ratios totally and just go for placing gadgets willy nilly? How much more powerful should bigger ships be, and if bigger ships are easily able to be bested by a smaller ship, what is the appropriate cost for them (ex: each level increases in strength 20% and cost 15%)? And how would you respond to the criticism that earning rank should be rewarded with bigger and better ships.. not just bigger ones. |
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Honestly, I have several ideas but I already know that they will all be shot down out of hand since no one on the dev team can or wants to take on the task.
First off - get rid of gaget levels. Set everything to level 0, remove the hull modifiers, and re-up the number of armor rings to the way they were.
Secondly - complete revamp of every single ship and every single gaget. The balance needs to come from the fact that every single shot and every single hit counts. A single Fusion Torp volly from a dread manually detonated at the right point on a scout should make that scout turn tail and go regen armor. Likewise if a cruiser sneaks up on a dread and plants an alpha or two into its tail - it should take notice, but not be forced to run, and the second that cruiser gets too close the HCLs/ADs burn through its hide.
Again, I'm not a developer, and I know that I never could be because I don't have the head for these sorts of numbers or the patience to work through them. I'm just a player who knows what is fun for me, and I know when I see a good game that people enjoy when I see it. When I started, it was a fun game for me, and I saw and met people who enjoyed a good game. I dont' see that now. Not in the least bit.
Quote:
| +1 class shouldn't mean instant win. But it should mean there's an advantage. Enough of one to compensate for the cost, to reward the effort, and to justify the variety. Or should we just get 1 bomber, 1 torp, 1 missile, 1 beam, 1 EW, and 1 mine ship on each faction, all equally equipped, and just let everyone whack each other with those? Whoever wins is obviously more skilled, so perfect. |
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No, it shouldn't! But a 2:1 system proposes exactly that, an instant win! BlockSpace sounds like a more entertaining game at this point than DreadSpace.
I don't have all the answers, and I never claimed to. I just know two things and have some damned good guesses as to a few other things.
What do I know. A) I have no intention of playing DS ever again if the broken & convoluted system in-place continues to perpetuate itself. B) I am not alone in this regard.
What I have summised. The broken system will most likely continue to perpetuate because the devs haven't been given all of the answers in a handy dandy step-by-step guide for them to follow. And this isn't a crack at the devs as much as it may seem, because damnit I know all of you, I consider you my friends and I KNOW that you all have your own lives to live and the alternative is insanely time consuming and complicated. I KNOW that you're getting bombarded from all sides and you're being pulled this way and that and you've got your goal that you're trying to reach and everything seems to stand in your way. I really just don't know what else to do or say though. I've lost all faith and all hope in DS simply becaues the path that its taken has grown so far from the fun game that it used to be in a completely vain and misguided attempt to capitalize on the complications of most MMOs. It really needs to sink in though that DS is not a traditional MMO in any way, shape, or form except in the sense that you play with other people in a persistant world & you advance in your abilities and capabilities as you play more & do stuff, but the core of the game has always lied in twitch combat, and the more you pile on the stats and weapons and armor the more you drive the stake into the heart of that core.
I know you're tired of hearing all of this and tired of reading all of this but damnit... like I said before. First time someone calls you a horse, you punch him in the mouth. Second time someone calls you a horse, you call him a jerk. Third time someone calls you a horse, well maybe its time to start shopping for a saddle.
Its time to start shopping, boys and girls.
[ This Message was edited by: NotCoeus on 2008-06-12 10:16 ]
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Rae
Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: May 23, 2002
Posts: 284
From: 10 minutes away in a fast boat
| Posted: 2008-06-12 12:01
Well, as Shig said, I see alot of naysayers here that seem to be shooting down the new version before it's even been implemented. I see people complaining but in the same sentence also stating that they haven't beta tested. I'm not one of the 'ubercoolsuperl33t' darkspace crowd, I don't consider myself a 'vet so obviously my opinion counts for more' but I've spent my years here and put in my time. I think the new (or old remodded system) being introduced will be a GOOD thing, and support the devs wholeheartedly in their attempt to put this game back on track. I'm sure I'll get flamed by someone that is ABSOLUTELY SURE that their opinion is superior, they're right and I'm wrong. Well, I remember .476, .478, etc.. and those were the good days as far as I'm concerned. Alot of you people haven't been around that long (unless you claim to have a deleted account, or changed your name, or your dog ate your computer and darkspace password etc...) so y'all really missed out on the style of gameplay DS used to be. Granted, there were no gadget levels, etc but in a way there were, they were just hard coded to the ship. And as Jack said, REGARDLESS of what all of you think, Palestar is not going to make a patch to cater to the 50 or so active players that participate. They are trying to cater to a new crowd, even the old crowd that lurks on the sidelines waiting for a new improved DS. So lets all just sit back, help with the testing, and let things proceed to the new version. Honestly, can trying something new and different really be that scary? I don't think so, and I also think that ANY improvement over present is a step up.
My flame suit is on...
I love this game...
Darkspace forever!!
Rae
[ This Message was edited by: Rae on 2008-06-12 12:03 ]
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2008-06-12 14:57
I concur with Rae, for what it's worth. And, might I add, people seem to be forgetting that DarkSpace is a team game, actual kills count for nothing but bragging rights, and that while hitting a scout with dreadnaught weapons might be messy, it's also rather difficult.
Let's see the final result before we offer (constructive) criticism.
[Edit:] Loved the article, by the way, Draf. Certainly got me thinking about all things game-balancey. [/edit]
[ This Message was edited by: Gejaheline on 2008-06-12 15:38 ]
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Leonide
Grand Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: October 01, 2005
Posts: 1553
From: Newport News, Virginia
| Posted: 2008-06-12 15:16
as a .483 player, i just want a darkspace that works! i don't care if we are not getting another .480 (coeus.....), i just want a Darkspace that doesn't get my angry after a half hour of playing and wanting to smash the nearest object out of sheer anger! i want to login, choose a ship, and shoot things and it be fun. is that all too much to ask?
and Drafell has been doing a LOT of work on the new version, and shame on you fools for shooting down the new version even before it comes out yet. IT AINT LIVE. DON'T MAKE JUDGEMENTS ABOUT IT YET. beta looks good right now, and i like it. so i will welcome it with open arms.
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Eledore Massis [R33]
Grand Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: May 26, 2002
Posts: 2694
From: tsohlacoLocalhost
| Posted: 2008-06-12 15:58
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| On 2008-06-12 12:01, Rae |
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We both joined DS on the same week. you Thursday i joined 3 days later on Sunday.
And i have to say, for all the people who has witnessed the old days, the current changes from 1.483 to 1.500 are looking more promising than we have seen since our beloved community began to shrank because of at the time the cursed upcoming changes.
Coeus, i see your reasoning but considering what i have seen and reason for my self, Yes the 2:1 ratio may make no sense if you look at it from a plain ratio perspective. This will only guarantee what you are proscribing. Dreadspace (Again).
But if you still look at how DS is being played, if a dreadnought pilot doesn't act like a dreadnought pilot it will likely get pounded and maybe even die.
That is darkspace, all actions and dissensions you make or won't make will affect the results, and not just 2:1 calculations.
As people already said, i to think that with 2:1 the problem will lay in lack of players becoming 2 to beat the 1. But let met stop on this subject.
Actually reading Rea's post made me think back of the old days.
Lots of people talk about 480, but why do they even talk about 480.
I personally think its because the older generation still remember the version before 481 hit.
481 changed a whole lot to the known system and people really whined while some even cursed it, (exactly like what we are doing currently, it almost looks like a mandatory conversation.) despite that 481 looked good. Still many people left.
[News message of 481].
But the versions before 480 where fun to, I joined just after 1.470 was released. I liked the game so much and even the whole community that i kept coming back, even today while the current release game sparks little interest to me i still am here to hope that it will regain part or full of its old glory.
E.m.
[ This Message was edited by: Eledore[NL] on 2008-06-12 16:34 ]
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Smartin
Grand Admiral
Joined: August 04, 2005
Posts: 1107
From: Michigan
| Posted: 2008-06-12 19:38
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On 2008-06-12 15:16, leonide *EP5* wrote:
as a .483 player, i just want a darkspace that works! i don't care if we are not getting another .480 (coeus.....), i just want a Darkspace that doesn't get my angry after a half hour of playing and wanting to smash the nearest object out of sheer anger! i want to login, choose a ship, and shoot things and it be fun. is that all too much to ask?
and Drafell has been doing a LOT of work on the new version, and shame on you fools for shooting down the new version even before it comes out yet. IT AINT LIVE. DON'T MAKE JUDGEMENTS ABOUT IT YET. beta looks good right now, and i like it. so i will welcome it with open arms.
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Leo not angry? I didn't know that was possible.
Yes Drafell, Doran, Jack, Shig, Tael, and Faustus have put in boat loads of work. Insane amount of work, hours ontop of hours working on a way to make this game better then it already is. I joined the Dev team a bit late into the entire developement process of 1.500 to help with anything I could to make it easier for them to work on more important things. To ease the tedious burden of some of these task, and to help with the creation of a great patch.
The entire dev team works hard, and a lot of players have been testing beta. Thank you for that. Keep in mind that it's not done yet, and we still do need more testing. Don't shoot the horse before you ever let it leave the gate. However this IS beta and although it's not live suggestions, opinions, and thoughts on everything are always welcomed in a constructive manor ofcourse. That is what beta is for.
I don't think 1.500 is lost.
Are there still items that need to be worked out? Yes.
Are the devs still working on it? Yes.
Is it better then .483? Hell yes it is, and it's only going to get better. Keep the feedback comming, and be remember to be good to each other.
-Smartin-
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doda *EP5 no longer exception...*
Grand Admiral
Joined: December 11, 2005
Posts: 1012
From: happy land
| Posted: 2008-06-14 14:00
Itw very hard to balance based upon skill. Having all ships being equal power isnt fair because then whats the point of bringing a costly ship out. Having ship power heavily based upon rank isnt fair because what about the people who cant afford large ships.
But what if we add a bridge between the weakest ship and the strongest ship? Yes high ranked players can still have their advantage over lower ranked. But give the lower ranked players a nych against the higher ranked players.
For example what if theres a specific type of ship that is good against large ships but is very weak against medium ships?
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Gejaheline
Fleet Admiral
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 19, 2005
Posts: 1127
From: UGTO MUNIN HQ, Mars
| Posted: 2008-06-14 17:04
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On 2008-06-14 14:00, doda *EP5* (No Longer Exception...) wrote:
...give the lower ranked players a nych against the higher ranked players.
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Do correct me if I'm wrong, but when you think about it it seems that a higher-ranked player won't necessarily have an advantage against a lower-ranked one.
As it's currently set up in beta, and often in release, dreadnaughts all have high-class guns, which do lots of damage, but fire slowly and have a slow projectile speed. Scout are very good at dodging big guns, and if they have a modicum of sense they'll stay out of beam range and inside missile range. Thus, since a scout probably lacks the firepower and ammunition to kill a dreadnaught, we have a stalemate; one can't hit the other, the other is guaranteed to hit the dread, but can't do enough damage.
"Ah," I hear you groan, "A dread can point-jump a scout and fry it in moment."
Not so. You're flying a dreadnaught, your sensors are poor and you can't see it until you're too close to it. What do you need to solve this?
A scout, one of those things lower-ranked people fly.
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DarkSpace About Page writes...
The fate of the galaxy relies on your coordination with your team. In such an unpredictable universe, objectives will be obtained and rival borders will be pushed back only with teamwork on a massive scale.
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(Addendum:
The dreadnaught in the previous example found a scout to help them and successfully point-jumped the enemy scout, which earned it 0.0003271 points of prestige.
The scout in the previous example was eaten by a quantum singularity. Where it went, nobody knows, although leading scientists believe that wherever it went, it now occupies only one spatial dimension.
The scout that assisted the dreadnaught discovered that it gained no pres from the kill and went onto the forums to complain bitterly about how grouping should be implemented. But that's a whole new story.)
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