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Darkspace: A Skill Based Game? |
Supertrooper
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: March 18, 2004
Posts: 1895
From: Maryland, U.S.A
|  Posted: 2008-06-08 14:07
Well, it doesnt exactly look like it when you look at Beta.
Darkspace seems to be turning into a class based game. Where if you've got the rank for dreads, you win the game. You won't need skill when you're a dread against a smaller ship, because theres such a vaste difference in the strengths.
It's the same for cruisers, dessies, and scouts.
Theres the argument that a player will find they suck in dreads, and will go back to using cruisers and such. But they'll find out they can't beat anyone in those things, so they'll go to dreads or just leave the game due to not having fun.
New players will end up being prestige farms for anyone above a destroyer in the MV, too.
Darkspace needs to go back to where skilled pilots can be unskilled pilots. Like in .481, even. Don't give me the bull&!$#!?@# that 'We're not trying to make .481, we're making 1.500'. We all know that .481 had the highest player numbers, the best gameplay too. It'd make sense to look at that as a model of how 1.500 should come to be. In .481, a skilled cruiser pilot could beat an okay dread pilot, but a skilled dread pilot would win the fight. A skilled destroyer pilot would beat a decent cruiser pilot.
Now you really don't have a chance against a ship in a higher class then yours, unless you have several others attacking the same target as you. While the teamwork there is nice, it is unlikley to happen being that there are going to be other enemies shooting at them too.
Then again, the idea of 'Lol I outrank so I instawin' might not kill Darkspace, like it's killed every other MMO thats tried it.
[ This Message was edited by: Crim {Pants?} on 2008-06-08 14:12 ]
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_x$witchBladex_ [1.480 Fanboy]
Grand Admiral
Joined: February 26, 2003
Posts: 849
From: Upstate New York
| Posted: 2008-06-08 14:22
This is true. I see where the Dev's are coming with the whole idea that it should take X many of cruisers to take out Y many dreads. However, our player numbers have never been high enough to do this.
The fact is that we hardly break 20 in the MV ever...so that is around 7 players per faction. Let's take a combat example of UGTO vs K'luth/ICC. Currently, UGTO normally bust out 2 stations in combat. According to the logic I have seen thus far, it would take everyone on the opposite faction side attacking one of the stations to take it down. But, while this is going on, the opposing faction is being torn apart by the other ships flying around--how exactly does this make sense?
Should new players be able to get easy kills? By no means no, especially against older players who know what they are doing. But, should new players be forced to have 100 deaths before they get a single kill? Hell no.
And as Crim has stated:
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On 2008-06-08 14:07, Crim {Pants?} wrote:
In .481, a skilled cruiser pilot could beat an okay dread pilot, but a skilled dread pilot would win the fight. A skilled destroyer pilot would beat a decent cruiser pilot.
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This makes complete sense, plus it is realistic. Is it really fair for someone who knows DarkSpace inside and out to fly a cruiser with all the skill in the world, to have a noob in a dreadnought jump in and spacebar mash and automatically win because his ship is just a higher class? No.
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Just to make it clear: I am not saying bring back .480 or .481, just the skill based style of combat and bombing.
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[ This Message was edited by: _x$witchBladex_ the Rum Loving Pirate on 2008-06-08 17:46 ]
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2008-06-08 14:54
I am still advocating BlockSpace™, where every ship is a block that fires smaller blocks at everybody.
The more blocks you have on your side, the more small blocks you can fire at your enemies!
Then, once we have 100 blocks fighting 100 blocks, we introduce darkspace.
Then we balance.
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GothThug {C?}
Fleet Admiral
Joined: June 29, 2005
Posts: 2932
| Posted: 2008-06-08 14:55
i agree with the 2 of you, except for 1 thing, 1.500 is supposed to be bringing skill back....without all the exploitations of 1.480-1.483....and to be quite honest, i dont mind  but i agree with the 2 of you that they should bring back 480-481....because 1.500 wont be fair to newbies who just wanna come in and kick some ass :|
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Supertrooper
Marshal
Pitch Black
Joined: March 18, 2004
Posts: 1895
From: Maryland, U.S.A
| Posted: 2008-06-08 15:02
Quote:
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On 2008-06-08 14:55, GothThug {C?} wrote:
i agree with the 2 of you, except for 1 thing, 1.500 is supposed to be bringing skill back....without all the exploitations of 1.480-1.483....and to be quite honest, i dont mind but i agree with the 2 of you that they should bring back 480-481....because 1.500 wont be fair to newbies who just wanna come in and kick some ass :|
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No, we're not saying bring back .480-.481. We're saying bring back the skill involved.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2008-06-08 18:11
Two cruisers technically being able to take a single dread, is balance, and common sense in any game.
Skill plays in more damage you can apply to the target whilst reducing your own (detting torps, manouvering out of the way of incoming projectiles, keeping distance, etc).
DarkSpace was always meant to be like this. If any of you remember early editions of the game, you'll remember that it used to take two cruisers, or more, to kill a dreadnought - and the same went for every class.
More and more people whined, and didn't like it that players who had put effort and time into the game, could kill them. What they didn't understand, is that their skill level could of stopped them from dying so quickly, and would of evened the odds.
This is a game, and games have to have balance. You look at every other game in the market, and you'll rarely see a level 60 character, being killed by a level 30 one.
It just DOESN'T happen.
We cannot cater the game to how many people we have - we have to cater it to how many people there should be, and look at it from a technical point of view, taking into consideration game lore, and design.
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Fattierob
Vice Admiral
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 4059
| Posted: 2008-06-08 18:13
Quote:
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On 2008-06-08 18:11, BackSlash *Jack* wrote:
and you'll rarely see a level 60 character, being killed by a level 30 one.
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Navyfield.
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Lux (Polaris)
Fleet Admiral
Raven Warriors
Joined: April 20, 2004
Posts: 835
From: Asgard
| Posted: 2008-06-08 22:40
Quote:
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On 2008-06-08 18:13, 1000 Unit Block wrote:
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On 2008-06-08 18:11, BackSlash *Jack* wrote:
and you'll rarely see a level 60 character, being killed by a level 30 one.
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Navyfield.
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Torp wall. DOOM.
Anyways....though surely the people who have the Dreads have put more time and effort into the game, what happens when some newbies actually want to fight instead of build/supply? Because if there's an enemy Dread in the vicinity, which is likely when you're in a battle, or meeting a resistance force when invading, this Dreadnaught would apparently be able to single-handedly crush a large amount of Frigates/Destroyers, which I'm assuming 'newbies' will be flying.
Also, we seem to be assuming we'll have the necessary playerbase to have fleets of Destroyers/Frigates to fight a Dread. The current playerbase can already mostly use ships of Dreadnaught class. And if Dreadnaughts are superior, why would anyone bother flying Cruisers/Destroyers/Frigates anymore? I can't help but think new players would feel a little useless in combat, flying a Destroyer/Frigate.
But it's your call, anyways.
[ This Message was edited by: Kitsune {ISC} on 2008-06-08 22:46 ]
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Loyal Admiral of the Interstellar Cultural Confederation Navy.
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2008-06-09 05:43
Quote:
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On 2008-06-08 18:11, BackSlash *Jack* wrote:
Two cruisers technically being able to take a single dread, is balance, and common sense in any game.
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Thats the theory anyways.
However the real question is this:
Does this mean that any two combat-dedicated cruisers versus one combat-dedicated dreadnought will be even, and is the whole concept even a good idea?
I ask, because it ranks, and badges and weapon loadout have had a historical problem of making some ships better, not different.
This gradually led people to assess which ships were the 'best' to use. Some ships were so obviously inferior they were only used as bridge between two ships (the one they're stuck with and the one they want).
It would be nice if we could discourage that idea, which is why I've so often rambled on the roles ship play in fleet engagements. One on one combat testing really isn't conclusive, as some ships are inherently better in groups, while others, are much better alone (example: Missile-based ships and assault ships, respectively).
Although balance isnt being addressed currently, I feel it may be of some use to bear these things in mind, as some ships have very different roles, or rather, should. Making slight variations between different kinds of ships to make them only good enough to use until the next best thing feels like a waste.
Which is why I feel that I dont agree that skill is lacking in this version thus far, but simply that it feels like ships aren't certain of their role in engagements, or that perhaps they simply aren't designed with their factions strenghts in mind.
Before yelling at me about it, I know balance isnt being done yet. This is one of those thought provoking things where we ask ourselves, those with any combat experience whatsoever, whether they work in practicality and whether or not they have a role.
Personally, I feel that ships without a specific role in which benefits the fleet should be scrapped. Its a waste of space, a waste of a ship.
Hopefully, when balance is done, ships may better reflect their already present roles, and those without clearly defined ones may get some help. And said roles will reflect their faction at heart. You know how it goes, ICC with defense but less offense, UGTO with the right balance of the two, and Kluth with a ton of offense but weak defense. Keeping those core ideas in mind will let all the small nuances fall into place as well.
And if that doesn't, I'm certain that we'll hammer out something that works before we release. I can't imagine it going through without it being perfect, its not like we can release a major patch every day.
That I feel, is the only issue(s) with 1.5 currently. (beyond the usual garbled bugs).
Make of that as you will, devs and players.
-Ent
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2008-06-09 07:18
Again, producing a game for the current playerbase would be silly. Would be we would have to re-do everything the moment we have a flux of players.
It is good game design to scale things - which is exactly how we're doing things. And you all seem to think that a Dread will be able to hit a frigate - they don't exactly go 25 gu/s now do they, and their JD's take a long time to recharge, not to forget to mention that their weapons hit diddly squat outside of 450-550 gu.
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Ulven Skyblade
Marshal
Non Omnis Moriar
Joined: March 04, 2007
Posts: 230
From: Timbo400
| Posted: 2008-06-09 09:30
i want to add something to this conversation. i have played beta 1 EAD VS 1 scale. it came down to this. i couldn't fight of that luth on my own. he couldn't kill me but it was impossible for me to kill him. mainly because they cloacked so fast. here by i point out. that if you juse ships well they will be strong enough to kill bigger ships. and i would make the big ships more dependable on support from smaller ships. because i am sure that if i had 1 ship with ecm with me i could have landed about 3x more hit's on that scale.
and before this i was in a A-dessy. vs a hvy cruiser. and i could do more dammage to the cruiser then the cruiser could do to me. mainly because i evaded a lot of hits.
also i heard somebody say. small ships will be just press harvest. well this isn't tru. i was in combat with a mandy and a dessy with my EAD. even if the dessy was right infront of my alpha i still found it better to consentrate fire power on the big thing that was shredding my armor then the smaller one tickling me. just when i was sure i had the mandy out of the way i fired at the dessy.
so i come to the conclusion if you know how the ships work. what there pro's are and what there con's are. you are very well able to kill a bigger ship. and i might be wrong but do we realy want that situation back that Capital ships (dread's) could be pwnd by 2/3 Scout's (ausault corvette's).
also i heard people say but then it is no fun for noob's anymore i might be mistaken but last time i checked we had a NEWBIE server. if you go to the MV you know your going to face big ships. if you stay in NEWBIE you know your going to be up against people of your one size
[ This Message was edited by: Timbo400 on 2008-06-09 09:33 ]
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2008-06-09 15:05
Quote:
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On 2008-06-09 09:30, Timbo400 wrote:
so i come to the conclusion if you know how the ships work. what there pro's are and what there con's are. you are very well able to kill a bigger ship. and i might be wrong but do we realy want that situation back that Capital ships (dread's) could be pwnd by 2/3 Scout's (ausault corvette's).
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In theory, perhaps.
But in practice.. not always.
For example in Beta 2 HC vs. a Battle Dreadnought turned into a virtual draw (ran out of ammo three times.) And 2 AC vs. a Battle Dreadnought turned into a slaughterhouse (getting close enough to use your beams without being mauled was impossible).
Just as an example.
-Ent
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Xpli$it
Marshal
Joined: March 06, 2004
Posts: 486
From: Canada
| Posted: 2008-06-09 15:27
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On 2008-06-08 18:11, BackSlash *Jack* wrote:
This is a game, and games have to have balance. You look at every other game in the market, and you'll rarely see a level 60 character, being killed by a level 30 one.
It just DOESN'T happen.
We cannot cater the game to how many people we have - we have to cater it to how many people there should be, and look at it from a technical point of view, taking into consideration game lore, and design.
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Thank you very much. I am glad there are those with their heads still attached. Mind you, I agree with crim and the others that DreadSpace requiring no skill would be terrible.. but to be blunt, it makes much more sense to have overpowered dreads than it does overpowered destroyers, and I'm far more worried that we'll have another DestroyerSpace than I am if we had another DreadSpace.
The skill involved should be that if you're in the cruiser, you need skill to beat the dread, NOT that if you're in the dread, you need exceptional skill to beat the cruiser. If two equally skilled pilots went head to head in a cruiser versus dread battle, balance would mean the dreadnaught would have the advantage.
There is a newbie server, for a reason. To learn the game, and get a head start so you don't go flying scouts under enemy dreads in the metaverse shouting "how do I __________?".
Many successful games I know of require a much more difficult training/levelling period than DarkSpace does, I'm really not concerned that new players will be 'scared away', I was never 'scared away' when dreads and stations did damage, I was just that much more anxious to earn rank through supply and other means not directly involving combat.
If dreadnaughts do not live up to their name, there is no reason to gain rank. If we gear the game towards newbies, why the hell would we want to gain veteran status?
As for "Darkspace: A Skill Based Game?", we shouldn't consider a dreadnaught needing skill to defeat a scout, rather, a dreadnaught should require skill to beat?.... Another dreadnaught! And a cruiser vs another cruiser, etc. But that won't happen, because a different, higher priority problem arises: faction balance. I am more concerned that a siphon vs. ead vs. AD battle 1v1 would require skill.. where each faction has it's own unique tactics but is still an even battle, unfortunately, darkspace has not focused enough on that issue, and as a result, we've had faction imbalance. Perhaps this is a more serious issue that should be bickered about
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Little Pet Slinki
Admiral
Joined: April 16, 2006
Posts: 836
From: United Kingdom, South West.
| Posted: 2008-06-09 17:08
On the note of dreadspace or destroyerspace or any one ship being above all, what if we implement something close to an instance, or a battleground, where, only a set amount of ships per fleet are open, like slots, then you have to fight, (Somewhat like scenario within the MV) where you have to capture the flagged planets, as normal, expect the big thing is, only 3 dreads per side, 6 cruisers, 10 destroyers etc, and this can be scaled up and down to the playerbase, Just an Idea to shove in here.
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Drafell
Grand Admiral
Mythica
Joined: May 30, 2003
Posts: 2449
From: United Kingdom
| Posted: 2008-06-11 06:37
Believe me, I have had these thoughts and concerns running through my head almost 24/7 for a long time.
A lot more thought and design has gone into this version that most people will realize. Pretty much every ship in the game does have a role.
If you look at class design in nearly any MMO, they tend to use very formulaic systems. The most basic in terms of character balancing is the following:
- Fighter
- Healer
- Mage
- Rogue
Many games use various combinations of the above classes, or create defined sub-classes depending on specialization. DarkSpace is no different.
Nearly every ship in DarkSpace falls into one of the the above classes, or a combination of them. As DS also uses some RTS elements we also have a "gatherer/crafting" class, which is generally considered to be a secondary job in other MMO's. In DarkSpace however, it is given a slightly more important role in terms of overall game-play.
Everyone has a different play style. Some prefer straightforward concepts, and others prefer roles which are a little more esoteric. I have tried to cater for both of these with the ship layouts that are in beta.
There are ships with have obvious uses which a majority of players will inevitably use.
There are also a variety of ships which have much less obviously defined roles, and will require a lot more thought and 'skill' to use to use effectively. These are the ones that may not seem much use at first glance in one vs. one or small fleet encounters, but when used in wolf packs or as part of a larger fleet, they turn out to be a lot more dangerous than their brethren.
I am not going to tell players how every ship is supposed to be played. I find that discovery and invention is half of the fun.
[ This Message was edited by: Drafell on 2008-06-11 08:57 ]
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