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Discussion: Mines |
Hellza - Dark Master
Fleet Admiral
Praetorian Wolves
Joined: June 06, 2004
Posts: 498
|  Posted: 2008-05-31 08:16
I guess the only option then to settle it. is to just put a safe zone on each jumpgates.
OR
just have WH's that spawn you in about 5-10k radious of a certain location in the next system? would that be possible?
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if mines do almost little to no damage, I think I'll just stick to my torps 
I have more chances to die by torps then a gate mined.
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Enterprise
Chief Marshal
Joined: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2576
From: Hawthorne, Nevada
| Posted: 2008-05-31 10:29
Well, there are only really a couple options.
You could find a way to make it so ships have a random chance of exit points around a jumpgate. You can make a small mine specific safe zone in which mines cannot be laid (to give a bit of room).
You can make it so mines, when laid down, are dropped on a grid pattern reducing the 'clumped' effect. Not sure if this is possible or not.
You can make it so that there is a falloff damage, that after enough mines detonate subsequent detonations do much less damage.
You can nerf the total amount of mines on ships that can be laid at once (perhaps only one alpha of mines can be laid at a time.).
You can make mines so worthless that nobody uses them (current situation.) You can make them so powerful that everyone uses them (I hope not.)
In other words, there are alot of solutions for those willing to consider them. Personally, I'm not averse to mines doing a considerable amount of damage since you have to be pretty inept to run into them. And also considering the amount of skill and risk neccessary for a ship to lay mines in the path of a dreadnought, the punch should be worth the effort.
Gate mining has been present before and still used occasionally, and its an irritant that can't be avoided. It does dissuade people from jumping premptively through gates. And one ICC ship with a pulse wave pretty much clears a field (yay for factional advantages.)
I think a good solution would simply to limit either the amount of mines in one area or prevent mines from being placed too close to the gate. Both together would be perfect, I think.
But mines need to do damage. Some ship layouts (Scarab comes to mind) are dedicated to mining and if the damage isnt worth it, you might as well make those ships into something else.
-Ent
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_x$witchBladex_ [1.480 Fanboy]
Grand Admiral
Joined: February 26, 2003
Posts: 849
From: Upstate New York
| Posted: 2008-05-31 12:53
Quote:
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On 2008-05-31 10:29, Enterprise wrote:
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You can nerf the total amount of mines on ships that can be laid at once (perhaps only one alpha of mines can be laid at a time.).
You can make mines so worthless that nobody uses them (current situation.) You can make them so powerful that everyone uses them (I hope not.)
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But mines need to do damage. Some ship layouts (Scarab comes to mind) are dedicated to mining and if the damage isnt worth it, you might as well make those ships into something else.
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See, minefields are a necesity. They are supposed to pop-up out of no where and surprise enemies flying around. If you force mine laying ships to only drop 1 set at a time, they are forced to make enemies chase them and drop them in their path. And after 1 set of mines, or just simply looking at your lower right corner to see the type of ship they are flying, people will know exactly what you are.
This leads me to another idea: What if we simplify how much information is given in the lower right-hand corner nav screen? Like, you are able to see all of the info on your factions side, but when looking at another faction all you can see is the ship class (scout, frigate, destroyer, cruiser, dreadnought, station, supply, transport, engineer).
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Now, to address what Jack said:
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On 2008-05-31 03:00, BackSlash *Jack* wrote:
Dreads are larger, and are more at risk of hitting mines - that's their downside. I don't want to see ANYTHING in the game removing anywhere near half of their armour in one go. Considering how much these things cost to lose - it's just not fair.
Players do not like dying to something they have no chance to avoid.
Dying to 10 enemy ships - fair deal, you were outnumbered.
Dying to 1 enemy ship (thats several classes below yours), because of mines - not a fair deal. If this happens, we'll be right back with the ED/PD problem once again.
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I am going to refer to my previous post on my idea of how mines should affect ships according to hull:
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On 2008-05-30 22:27, _x$witchBladex_ the Rum Loving Pirate wrote:
So to alter what I said, a mine field of a substantial amount(aka an entire load dropped) should:
Instant kill ------------------- Scout, Frigates, Destroyers
Cripple ---------------------- Cruisers
Significantly Damage ------ Dreadnoughts
Some Damage ------------- Stations
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Also Jack, you stated how having a lot of mines in one spot will cause problems on the server. But, that is how they have always been used. I have never seen mines set over an area of 1000gu just to simply get lucky and hit somone multiple times because they followed you.
But, before I get into a huge argument I would really like to hear your opinion on damage Jack just because all we have been arguing here is how much damage they should do to dreads and stations for the most part.
-Switch
[ This Message was edited by: _x$witchBladex_ the Rum Loving Pirate on 2008-05-31 13:00 ]
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Ospolos
Grand Admiral
Joined: January 31, 2004
Posts: 567
From: ON, CANADA
| Posted: 2008-05-31 13:07
Anything but safezones, because you can jump to gate without having to approach, causing you to be at 0gu on the other side, and just staying safe in it.
Random exit points looks like a good idea along with the damage reduction if hit by other mines clumped togeather
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Eledore Massis [R33]
Grand Admiral
Templar Knights
Joined: May 26, 2002
Posts: 2694
From: tsohlacoLocalhost
| Posted: 2008-05-31 13:26
[off-topic]
Quote:
| On 2008-05-31 13:07, Ospolos wrote:
Anything but safezones |
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actually i want safezones on the gates and wormholes.
Even it it is just a 200gu safezone.
When you use a JG/WH you pass the dictorfield of that JG/WH
This way you finaly no longer get stuck with a broken Jumpdrive when you just used it to escape from a interdictor.
[on-topic]
I find limiting mines per Gu would be a good one.
but i would go for a form of webmine deployment instaid of single one's
p.s. annyone actually tought about that those mines are almost 15yard/meters in diameter, thats one big AM/Nuke/EMP weapon.
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DarkScorpion
Marshal
Sanity Assassins
Joined: September 14, 2004
Posts: 237
From: London England
| Posted: 2008-05-31 15:30
if a ship can lay 120 mines yes it should be a instant kill if you unlucky to run smack bang in the middle make it so u need to send scouts into system to check if the coast is clear make the new guy who can only realy get a scout feel he is doing some thing worth whille give him a little bonus for destroying them no ponit giving most scouts beacons that are mainly used for taging kluth additional purpose instead of making most scouts kluth hunters.
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doda *EP5 no longer exception...*
Grand Admiral
Joined: December 11, 2005
Posts: 1012
From: happy land
| Posted: 2008-05-31 16:27
or give small ships like scouts a "stealth" ability that allows them to pass over mines without detonating them. This device would have a very high energy drain (maybe like 20 seconds till it drains all your energy), but make it so scouts are useful at doing what they were meant for, scouting.
So whenever you suspect enemy mines, send a scout through the gate to destroy the mines.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2008-05-31 16:45
Quote:
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On 2008-05-31 15:30, Darkscorpion{The Corrupted} wrote:
if a ship can lay 120 mines yes it should be a instant kill if you unlucky to run smack bang in the middle make it so u need to send scouts into system to check if the coast is clear make the new guy who can only realy get a scout feel he is doing some thing worth whille give him a little bonus for destroying them no ponit giving most scouts beacons that are mainly used for taging kluth additional purpose instead of making most scouts kluth hunters.
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You shouldn't be capable of laying 120 mines in the first place.
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_x$witchBladex_ [1.480 Fanboy]
Grand Admiral
Joined: February 26, 2003
Posts: 849
From: Upstate New York
| Posted: 2008-05-31 16:55
Quote:
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On 2008-05-31 16:27, doda *EP5* (No Longer Exception...) wrote:
or give small ships like scouts a "stealth" ability that allows them to pass over mines without detonating them. This device would have a very high energy drain (maybe like 20 seconds till it drains all your energy), but make it so scouts are useful at doing what they were meant for, scouting.
So whenever you suspect enemy mines, send a scout through the gate to destroy the mines.
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It's called a scanner.
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Bitopherous
1st Lieutenant
Joined: June 07, 2004
Posts: 264
From: Bottom of the pile
| Posted: 2008-05-31 19:05
Mines have a countermeasure; not only that, but that conuntermeasure has been significantly upgraded. The scanner can now scan out to 4200-ish gus, and you are worried about being insta-killed? God forbid a fleet be prepared...The mine/scanner juxtaposition is pretty even. There's no reason one ought not be able to avoid being blown away by mines.
You can pulse mines, shoot them, jump around them. Seriously, if you run into a mine field and die, thats absolutely the fault of the pilot, and maybe he ought to be flying a ship class or two down anyway.
Nerfing mines was a bad idea in the first place. Can we get them back up to where they ought to be?
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doda *EP5 no longer exception...*
Grand Admiral
Joined: December 11, 2005
Posts: 1012
From: happy land
| Posted: 2008-05-31 20:10
I wouldnt mind if mines were slightly increased in power. Currently, there is a lot of emphasis on teamwork. Such as jump drives with very little fuel, which requires the support ship inorder to continue prolonged jump. Mines also require teamwork, you need a supply ship to be able to effictivly lay down a large number of mines. A ship flying solo diserves to loose, because its not making use of teamwork.
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tron740
Cadet
Joined: February 06, 2008
Posts: 7
From: Abq, NM
| Posted: 2008-06-02 19:56
In my opinion mines are much much much MUCH too underpowerd. If you want them to be used at all boost the power up or you'll just have to get rid of them because nobody uses them. But you also need to make it easier to make a field like say have it so that a few mines come out at a time 3-5 maybe. Cause if your just putting one mine out at a time it takes forever and then it might be too thin or too wide ( causing it to not be dense inuf).
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_x$witchBladex_ [1.480 Fanboy]
Grand Admiral
Joined: February 26, 2003
Posts: 849
From: Upstate New York
| Posted: 2008-06-02 20:29
Quote:
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On 2008-06-02 19:56, tron740 wrote:
In my opinion mines are much much much MUCH too underpowerd. If you want them to be used at all boost the power up or you'll just have to get rid of them because nobody uses them. But you also need to make it easier to make a field like say have it so that a few mines come out at a time 3-5 maybe. Cause if your just putting one mine out at a time it takes forever and then it might be too thin or too wide ( causing it to not be dense inuf).
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Mines used to be powerful enough with just one load dropped. You are a newer player so you don't have much to judge them on, but if they are set back to what they used to be you will see how powerful they can be.
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Drow
Fleet Admiral
Joined: June 06, 2003
Posts: 449
From: USA, WI
| Posted: 2008-06-08 10:18
Ah, the good old days of flying a minlayer. Was verry fun. High risk if you got to close to enemy, but if only one or two enemy chased you, you could run around droping a mine here and there for them to run into to disuade them, about no chance of a kill, but gives you time for help to come and aid you.
If we think about the tactics more than just the kill factor of them, perhaps it makes more sense. ECM has ECCM, we do not complain we can not find a ship and they need to reduce the ECM effect. Instead we use ECCM. Tactics.
We use Tags. We use things to counter something. If all we want to do is fly big ships, its gana suck in some aspect.
Look at newer players, stuck with scouts and frigates. Its ok to instakill them. Where is the fun? But they learn to stay farther away, use long range weapons, ECM, hide behind larger friendly ships. Tactics. I took on Bito in a station with me in a scout. He could not kill me. He may not have acualy tried, but the point is there that if you use the right ship, with tactics, you can do things.
We used to use minelayers all the time. It was ok. People used scanners and PD.
Most of the argument agenst minelayers sounds to me like there is no tactics. That people want to fly only large ships, and if that is all you take into account, then yes mines need to not do much damage as your big ship may go boom.
Now if you look at the big picture, scouts, supply, frigates, mine layers, carriers, ect ect. You have a counter for everything. Unwillingness to use the proper counter for a tactic is not a reason to nulify that tactic or to say it needs to be reduced or left weak.
If a minelayer spends the time and effort to lay 50 mines at a jumpgate for you to hit, then be smarter than just flying a dread first. Send a scout or other anti mine ship in first. Problem of large damage solved. With the argument of prestige; there is so little prestige lost that it wont matter much. This saves your larger prestige loss, which is the main concerne I hear.
So a look at the proper use for mines, to have maximum effect is in order. If you just sit there and drop all mines in one place, that is a big boom. It is on the order of a few Alpha strikes by a larger ship, and may kill a dread if there lack of tactics caused them to not send a smaller ship in first to look for them.
If the mines are spread out in a wide area, then you will take smaler damagae over a time, with a chance of escape. But if you just keep runing over the mines, then you should die. Lack of tactics to dispose of the mines is not cause to reduce them.
So it should be determined how much damage will it take to kill a certain sized ship if you stack all the mines from one mine layer. Then determine if that single minelayer should have the power to destroy a ship class if all mines stacked.
Should one minelayer laying all mines in one spot kill a Dread? If not, then what should the effect be? Massive damage to the extent that that one Dread must retreat? If they do not retreat, then the normal weapons on the minelayer have a chance of finishing off the Dread?
Figure out the effect you want, then set the damage/quantity to match it.
Do not blame lack of tactics as a reason to change something.
It's a game balance viewpoint, not a view from your faverate ship.
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BackSlash
Marshal
Galactic Navy
Joined: March 23, 2003
Posts: 11183
From: Bristol, England
| Posted: 2008-06-08 11:32
Truth of the mater is - there is no minelayer-dread (and no - we're not putting one in), and the only ship even capable of putting a DENT into a dread with mines, would be the Scarab (the only cruiser-minlayer class).
And no amount of mines should 'significantly' damage it. The cruiser is an entire hull level below the dreadnoughts - it should never have the power to force the dread to retreat in one attack (we'll call laying a lot of mines in one spot, a attack).
The only way I can see minelayers coming back to being useful, is using them in conjunction with normal weapons, whilst severely limiting the amount you can put down.
No ship class a level below you should be capable of damaging you significantly. We see this problem with the ED and PD now, the CL2K dessies in 1.480 (as well as the minelayers then - they were very powerful), and I don't want to see a single ship class in the game, taking on a class bigger than itself, and doing anything resembling 'significant' damage.
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